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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela
    #26690575 - 05/23/20 04:42 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Iran complains over US threat to Venezuela oil shipment
Deutsche Welle

US ‘will be IN TROUBLE’ if it makes ‘MISTAKE’ of interfering with Venezuela-bound tankers, Rouhani warns
Quote:

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani stressed that his country is not interested in escalation but would take necessary action to defend its sovereignty and safeguard its national interests.

Five tankers transporting 1.5 million barrels of Iranian fuel to Venezuela are currently near the Caribbean, with the first ship scheduled to reach the country’s territorial waters by Sunday.



Is it legal to stop other countries from doing business with each other?

I realize the United States doesn't care about international law, but just wondering if anyone knows if we have a legal right to stop it according to international law?


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OfflinePatlal
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26690592 - 05/23/20 04:51 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

What I wonder is, will the US sink these tankers if they refuse to stop.  Deliberatly spilling 1.5 million barrels of oil in the ocean won't thebest way to make friends.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26690622 - 05/23/20 05:04 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

I realize the United States doesn't care about international law, but just wondering if anyone knows if we have a legal right to stop it according to international law?




Does anyone even enforce international law ?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26690681 - 05/23/20 05:35 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

I think all countries respect international law outside the US, Israel, and possibly India.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26690864 - 05/23/20 07:27 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Hopefully this is just one of our empty threats. It's not like they're bringing in nuclear weapons.

Is the only motive here to cripple the Venezuelan economy and mess with Iran?

Also, I see the military getting overextended. We don't have enough fleets to police all of our perceived trouble spots.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26690906 - 05/23/20 07:56 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Is the only motive here to cripple the Venezuelan economy and mess with Iran?



According the Deutsche Welle article, "Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world, but the country — in the midst of a severe economic crisis — is in need of gasoline and other related products."

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Also, I see the military getting overextended. We don't have enough fleets to police all of our perceived trouble spots.



Funny term, "perceived trouble spots" (I realize that's what our Government would call it).

"OH NO! The suffering in Venezuela might be reduced by Iran.  We've got to divert American money from domestic coronavirus help to ensure greater suffering on the Venezuelan people!"

I'd be curious if Trump has a position on this.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/23/20 08:18 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26691104 - 05/23/20 09:51 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Bring the troops home. Not only for the general clusterfuck reasons, but also for not being spread thin. We have plenty of battle harderned personnel in the military as is.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
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Only I will remain.”


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26691129 - 05/23/20 09:58 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Is the only motive here to cripple the Venezuelan economy and mess with Iran?



According the Deutsche Welle article, "Venezuela has one of the largest oil reserves in the world, but the country — in the midst of a severe economic crisis — is in need of gasoline and other related products."

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Also, I see the military getting overextended. We don't have enough fleets to police all of our perceived trouble spots.



Funny term, "perceived trouble spots" (I realize that's what our Government would call it).

"OH NO! The suffering in Venezuela might be reduced by Iran.  We've got to divert American money from domestic coronavirus help to ensure greater suffering on the Venezuelan people!"

I'd be curious if Trump has a position on this.




I would be surprised if the whole thing isn't just Trump's position.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26691152 - 05/23/20 10:13 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

How pathetic is it that Venezuela needs oil from Iran. What a fucking shit show that country is.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: koods] * 1
    #26691295 - 05/23/20 11:40 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
How pathetic is it that Venezuela needs oil from Iran. What a fucking shit show that country is.



According to this article:
Quote:

Venezuela is currently suffering widespread gasoline shortages, with domestic production hamstrung by US sanctions prohibiting the import of vital diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s refining capacity.



So this is the US's fault.  We are absolutely determined not to let socialism succeed, even though we're smart enough to know it isn't going to fail on it's own.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: koods]
    #26691300 - 05/23/20 11:45 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

I sense a disturbance in the force....

the distant rumblings of the War Machine kicking into gear....also, there have been reports & rumors that the propaganda machine next door to it has be working late into the night... burning the midnight oil. ..and now big brother can spy online & offline at home and abroad with full legal impunity....

Somethings coming...  :noob:

:wizard:

You don’t know the power of the dark side! ... :psycrankey:

:starwars:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: koods]
    #26692950 - 05/24/20 05:42 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

We are the ones responsible for allowing global trade, so why would 'legality' be important?
Quote:

koods said:
How pathetic is it that Venezuela needs oil from Iran. What a fucking shit show that country is.



Whenever i agree with koods:puke:

Socialist nations are almost all corrupt. Corruption leads to mismanagement of resources. Even with the amount of oil, the quality of their product was uncompetitive anyway.

Communists/socialusts are worse than nazis. The nazis knew when to give up.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26693112 - 05/24/20 06:58 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the ones responsible for allowing global trade, so why would 'legality' be important?



What do you mean?  We're the ones who threatened to stop it (trade between Iran and Venezuela).

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Socialist nations are almost all corrupt. Corruption leads to mismanagement of resources. Even with the amount of oil, the quality of their product was uncompetitive anyway.

Communists/socialusts are worse than nazis. The nazis knew when to give up.



I think you missed this post.  The United States is the one getting in the way of socialism.  :shrug:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693140 - 05/24/20 07:07 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Socialism destroid most of south america. We arent 'getting in the way of socialism' by not allowing trade.

We keep the trade routs safe in the first place. The only reason globalism exists is because we allowed it. Thats why we dont have empires.
Ive explained it many times, because most misconceptions about global issues goes back to the dismantling of empires last century


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 4
    #26693280 - 05/24/20 07:54 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Socialism destroid most of south america.



Actually, Venezuela became the richest country in Latin America under Hugo Chavez and socialism.  In order to show that socialism doesn't actually work, the US had to go in and fuck things up.

Did you ever notice we don't allow socialist countries to fail on their own?  We always have to go in and make them fail.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We arent 'getting in the way of socialism' by not allowing trade.



Actually, we are.  If we block trade of diluents and spare parts needed to reactivate the country’s government owned refining capacity, we're clearly getting in the way.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We keep the trade routs safe in the first place. The only reason globalism exists is because we allowed it.



But we're threatening to BLOCK trade in this case, not keep it open.  That's the opposite.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693321 - 05/24/20 08:08 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.

That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade. They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons such as being other communist states.

We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26693339 - 05/24/20 08:16 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?



I don't recall saying ALL.  I'm sure they are impacted by coronavirus and other factors.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.



I don't see what point you're trying to make here.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade.



We're blocking trade in order to hurt their socialist economy.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons



Source, or make believe?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.



Ok.  Earlier you said this:  "We keep the trade routs safe in the first place."

That's a big change.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693371 - 05/24/20 08:31 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

I dont understand your point. What you seem to do is take any harm we cause their economy, say how they are socialist, then overstate our involvement in destroying their economy.

We do keep trade safe. As I have said, we are.the rrason the imperial system fell and nations dont have to make and source all goods within their boreders.

You are playing with words. Us protecting trade is 'controlling' it. It doesnt mean I put any value in acting nice.
Fuck those other nations. We dont owe them anything.

I heard about Venezuela having bad oil from peter zeihan. Not sure what talk.
the world has an oil surplus. Why would people want third world oil? Why would their oil be the same quality standards as ours?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26693441 - 05/24/20 08:59 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I dont understand your point. What you seem to do is take any harm we cause their economy, say how they are socialist, then overstate our involvement in destroying their economy.



I told you Venezuela had the richest economy in Latin America before the US had to step in to prove socialism doesn't work.  I don't see how us destroying their economy is overstating anything?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We do keep trade safe. As I have said, we are.the rrason the imperial system fell and nations dont have to make and source all goods within their boreders.

You are playing with words. Us protecting trade is 'controlling' it. It doesnt mean I put any value in acting nice.
Fuck those other nations. We dont owe them anything.



Ok.  That differs greatly from your original point of "we keep the trade routs safe in the first place".  I don't think Iran feels too safe shipping gas to Venezuela while the US is talking about preventing the shipment.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I heard about Venezuela having bad oil from peter zeihan.



According to Reuters, "the quality issues stem from shortages of chemicals and equipment to properly treat and store the oil, resulting in shutdowns and slowdowns at PDVSA production facilities".  So once again, we see American involvement hurting Venezuelan oil production.  If we didn't get in the way, they just might succeed.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693501 - 05/24/20 09:21 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

You can appear to have a functioning economy with poor fundamentals and corruption. China is an example. Communist nations do things like running factories with no demand to look productive.

We keep them safe for our allies. Not some altruistic reason

I dont think there was ever a chance they would succeed.


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Edited by specialpeopleclub (05/24/20 09:21 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26693637 - 05/24/20 10:17 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Looks like one of the tankers made it:

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/iran-oil-tanker-reaches-venezuela-no-sign-us-threa/
...
By Scott Smith - Associated Press - Sunday, May 24, 2020
CARACAS, Venezuela — The first of five tankers loaded with gasoline sent from Iran reached Venezuelan waters late Saturday, expected to temporarily ease the South American nation’s fuel crunch while defying Trump administration sanctions targeting the two U.S. foes.

The oil tanker Fortune encountered no immediate signs of U.S. interference as it eased through Caribbean waters toward the Venezuelan coast and Venezuelan officials celebrated the arrival.

“Iran and Venezuela have always supported each other in times of difficulty,” Venezuelan Foreign Minister Jorge Arreaza tweeted. “Today, the first ship with gasoline arrives for our people.


--------------------
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Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (05/24/20 10:17 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26693655 - 05/24/20 10:23 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You can appear to have a functioning economy with poor fundamentals and corruption. China is an example. Communist nations do things like running factories with no demand to look productive.



What do you mean "no demand"?  Most of things I around me that I just picked up and looked at were made in China, such as my Lenovo ThinkPad.  I work in a company that makes chip making equipment, and most of the parts in our tools are made in China.  What makes you believe China factories have no demand?

Source, or make believe?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We keep them safe for our allies. Not some altruistic reason



Yes, you clarified that.  When you said "we keep the trade routs safe", that sounded altruistic.  Now I realize you meant our ships keep our billionaires rich at the expense of socialist countries.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I dont think there was ever a chance they would succeed.



The more they succeed, the harder we step in to stop them.  We should just leave socialist countries alone to fail so people like me don't become suspicious.  :shrug:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693739 - 05/24/20 10:57 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

The ussr also had factories on when they werent needed. It creates an appearance of productivity, and keeps the people above you happy.
It was an example of the dishonest things these sort of government use.

Ive linked many times where i get my understanding.
Believe me or dont. You think Venezuela would somehow succeed without the US. Why woyld i try to convince a lefty of anything? They already make excuses for reality at every turn, except believing in god. The lefties really like acting as though that gives them monopoly on 'science'.

Thats a framed way to put it. You could empty every billionaires billions into the pockets of the poor and we would be no wealthier.
Inequality is the sign of a working economy to some extent. Everyone being equal or relatively equal means we are poor as a society. The total material wealth of society is more important.

We dont really do that much. Not allowing cuba to trade with us, or stopping a few ships isnt going to induce failiure in working economies.
You have it literally backwards. Vietnam is still under a communist regeme, but theirs made better choices.

You seem to not understand the importance of markets and how they allow more efficient ways of distributing resources and wealth. Its convoluted and impractical for centralized governments to dictate these things.

Why do you think we would be able to keep these nations down if they had such successful models?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26693881 - 05/25/20 12:21 AM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Higher after tax wages and stronger social services makes people "no wealthier"? That doesn't make any sense. How come globalization, immigration and lower tax rates makes billionaires wealthier, but reversing that distribution doesn't work its way downward?

Wealth and income inequality is obviously inevitable, but it's too what degree. Today, it's near a 100 year high and we're suffering the economic implications on that outcome. Guess who is very outspoken about that dangerous inequality today? The billionaires themselves.

So please, can anyone explain why so many of the broke peasants are defending the billionaires, while those very same billionaires are telling the world the current wealth distribution isn't socially or economically healthy?

BTW, the West is no longer capitalistic anymore. The current crisis proves once more it's all about privatizing the profits and socializing the losses. Just because the "markets" trade M-F, it hardly means the West practices free market capitalism.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 1
    #26693902 - 05/25/20 12:34 AM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Yeah, fuck you "fiscal hawks" that advocate for complete privatization for any government task. "Da private sector can do it cheaper and more efficient". Wonder what the true cost is; if you added up all the bailouts and tax breaks?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26693915 - 05/25/20 12:44 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

To what degree indeed.

We still have markets. Complete libertarianism isnt a real solution.


Taking a billionare and liquidating them isnt going to pay for shit, and youll destroy the infrastructure they made in this case.
We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy.

Being wealthy doesnt mean you understand economics. Look at Rogan.
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Yeah, fuck you "fiscal hawks" that advocate for complete privatization for any government task. "Da private sector can do it cheaper and more efficient". Wonder what the true cost is; if you added up all the bailouts and tax breaks?



government is inefficient. There arent incentives to provide good service. Same with monopolistic companies like comcast.
A tax break isnt a cost. Thats your money.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26693983 - 05/25/20 01:45 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
The ussr also had factories on when they werent needed. It creates an appearance of productivity, and keeps the people above you happy.
It was an example of the dishonest things these sort of government use.

Ive linked many times where i get my understanding.
Believe me or dont.



Why would a factory not produce anything, unless you think the USSR already had everything it needed?

Source, or make believe?  I think you need to stop listening to establishment propaganda.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You think Venezuela would somehow succeed without the US.



We KNOW they became the richest country in Latin America before America put an end to it.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Why woyld i try to convince a lefty of anything? They already make excuses for reality at every turn, except believing in god. The lefties really like acting as though that gives them monopoly on 'science'.



Other posters here can tell you I frequently defend Trump against all the make believe against him.  I'll take whichever side has better information, which isn't always my own side.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We dont really do that much. Not allowing cuba to trade with us, or stopping a few ships isnt going to induce failiure in working economies.



Of course it hurts them.  A lot.  That's why we'll never lift the embargo on Cuba.  Do you think they're a terrorist county that deserves to be embargoed?  No.  We're just frightened they might do better if they start trading with the US.  Do you have any idea how many billions Cuba has lost from the embargo?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You seem to not understand the importance of markets and how they allow more efficient ways of distributing resources and wealth. Its convoluted and impractical for centralized governments to dictate these things.



Are we talking about communism or socialism?  Venezuela is socialist last I checked.
I actually have an MBA from a decent business school.  What's your qualifications outside of listening to propagandists?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Why do you think we would be able to keep these nations down if they had such successful models?



It's funny you ask me that while claiming I don't understand markets.  Venezuela had been trading with other countries for many of its goods and services.  When we cut that off, it took a huge toll on them, as we knew it would.

Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela
Quote:

Executive Summary

This paper looks at some of the most important impacts of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the US government since August of 2017. It finds that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population.

The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They exacerbated Venezuela’s economic crisis and made it nearly impossible to stabilize the economy, contributing further to excess deaths. All of these impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans.

We find that the sanctions have inflicted, and increasingly inflict, very serious harm to human life and health, including an estimated more than 40,000 deaths from 2017–2018; and that these sanctions would fit the definition of collective punishment of the civilian population as described in both the Geneva and Hague international conventions, to which the US is a signatory. They are also illegal under international law and treaties which the US has signed, and would appear to violate US law as well.




And it's going to get worse:



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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26694331 - 05/25/20 08:55 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.

That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade. They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons such as being other communist states.

We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.




China has a fragile economy? OK, every country has a fragile economy, but there's isn't more fragile than ours. And it will overtake ours in size in this decade.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694337 - 05/25/20 09:00 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.

That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade. They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons such as being other communist states.

We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.




Could you explain, if we control trade, why is our balance of trade so bad.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26694638 - 05/25/20 12:15 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

China wont overtake us. Their economyn is made of false numbers. Its more likely they break apart as hey have been most of their history. China relies on us.

Our balance of trade isnt bad. We are the least involved nation as a part of our gdp in trade. We are needed more than we need anyone else.

Nations keep factories running that arent producing to show proructive numbers. It doesnt mean they had everything they needed.

Being the wealthiest dosnt mean you have good economic fundrinentals.
Venezuala had bad practices and their politicians stole their money. They built dams for energy before a draught.
You can say how they were the wealthiest, but that just shows how poorly they managed what they had.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26694752 - 05/25/20 01:14 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

The U.S. has had an unfavorable balance of trade every year since 1975.

Apparently my graduating from High School triggered our trade collapse.


--------------------
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Edited by Brian Jones (05/25/20 01:16 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26694773 - 05/25/20 01:29 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

They rely on our markets to sell their goods.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694810 - 05/25/20 01:55 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
They rely on our markets to sell their goods.



What does that mean?  We buy some of their goods?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694813 - 05/25/20 01:56 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
To what degree indeed.

We still have markets. Complete libertarianism isnt a real solution.


Taking a billionare and liquidating them isnt going to pay for shit, and youll destroy the infrastructure they made in this case.
We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy.

Being wealthy doesnt mean you understand economics. Look at




Yes, we have markets, but The Elite privatize the gains and socialize the losses. That isn't free market capitalism, that's corporate fascism.

BTW, who is calling for liquidating billionaires?  Going back to tax rates from a few decades ago isn't liquidation.

"We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy"

Is that what you call socializing the losses and bailing out The Elite?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694833 - 05/25/20 02:04 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
China wont overtake us. Their economyn is made of false numbers. Its more likely they break apart as hey have been most of their history. China relies on us.

Our balance of trade isnt bad. We are the least involved nation as a part of our gdp in trade. We are needed more than we need anyone else.

Nations keep factories running that arent producing to show proructive numbers. It doesnt mean they had everything they needed.

Being the wealthiest dosnt mean you have good economic fundrinentals.
Venezuala had bad practices and their politicians stole their money. They built dams for energy before a draught.
You can say how they were the wealthiest, but that just shows how poorly they managed what they had.




Our trade deficit is bad, not for The Elite that you seem to protect, it's bad for the 99% that have to pay the price. You do remember that Trump ran on getting rid of that trade deficit, was he wrong about it?

"China relies on us"

US based global corporations rely on China for cheap production, take that away and profit margins crash and so does the stock market.

If China kicks the US companies out of China, those companies are fucked for a very long time. Let's be perfectly honest here, China and the US aren't enemies, they are very tight business partners. There never was any sort of trade war, it was all for show.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694838 - 05/25/20 02:05 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
They rely on our markets to sell their goods.




We rely on their workers and infrastructure to produce many of our goods.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman]
    #26694877 - 05/25/20 02:26 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.

You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have. Its not good that we bail out companies that shouldnt be.

We have demand, and needed money. We easilly absorbed the 3 trillion.

You people attach too much morality to money.

We dont rely on them. If china disappeared we would recover. Our economics are more sound, our military is centuries ahead of theirs, we are energy independent, we cant be blocked in geographically.
Anything they do to us is a minor setback.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694976 - 05/25/20 03:05 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.

You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have. Its not good that we bail out companies that shouldnt be.

We have demand, and needed money. We easilly absorbed the 3 trillion.

You people attach too much morality to money.

We dont rely on them. If china disappeared we would recover. Our economics are more sound, our military is centuries ahead of theirs, we are energy independent, we cant be blocked in geographically.
Anything they do to us is a minor setback.




You don't think shipping tens of millions of good paying manufacturing jobs out of the US the past 40 years had a significant impact of US real wages going down?  Immigration is really bad for US wages, but shipping high quality jobs out of the US is even worse.

You don't think billionaires benefit from low wages from the working class?  You don't think they benefit from tax cuts?  You don't think they benefit from third world slave labor?  That all comes at the expense of the US working class, there's no disassociating from those economic realities.

Actually, taxes would be the main starting point for fixing the massive wealth and income inequality. If billionaires favor trickle down economics, therefore I favor trickle up taxation.

"We have demand, and needed money"

Oh, you mean the corporations pissed away tens of trillions on stock buybacks the past 15 years and are now loaded with trillions of debt they can't service, therefore The Fed needs to bail them out with trillions of free money.

"We don't rely on them"

Tell me what happens when the cheap slave labor isn't available for global corporations?  Dow 3000.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695028 - 05/25/20 03:31 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695170 - 05/25/20 04:59 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

I do think corperations benefit from low wages. I dont think jobs going overseas is worse than literal population replacement. Its a differant issue, and you seem to want to combine issues.


I dont think the dow reflects the economy.

-----------

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?



Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money', they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.

How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?

I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.


No, i dont like reagan. He gave amnisty to millions. I dont really like anyone from FDR to Obama.
Keep .aking bad guesses.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695214 - 05/25/20 05:30 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money'



So corporation hire people out of charity, not because they need work done to earn the company money?  :flowstone:

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
...they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.



I don't disagree.  But I disagree that workers don't earn money for the company.  Again, people aren't hired for charity.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?



Who talked about a reverse hierarchy?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.



Qman already asked you "who is calling for liquidating billionaires?  Going back to tax rates from a few decades ago isn't liquidation."

I feel the same way as qman.  Let's stop giving the billionaires giant tax breaks.

I don't know why you keep saying we want to liquidate everything billionaires have.  I guess you think you're smart if you make believe others are stupid.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/25/20 05:36 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695250 - 05/25/20 05:48 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.

You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.

Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical

Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:

So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.
We have the worlds reserve currency. People like you would ruin that.
Worse, youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money

Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695291 - 05/25/20 06:20 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.



I agree, low wage workers are replaceable.  But that doesn't make them worthless.  Stocking shelves IS an integral part of a company.  Show me a retail store that doesn't have shelf stockers.  Even Amazon needs them to keep it's warehouses stocked.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.



Why do you feel the owner, who in some cases does nothing more than invest his daddy's inheritance money, is entitled to all the company's profits and not the people who actually do the work?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical



Who said I don't recognize the importance of management?  There you go again making believing I'm dumb so you can pretend you're smart.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:



What's "the problem" you're referring to?  How do we pay for roads, schools, police, defense, and such "problems" without tax money?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?



Yes, of course collecting more in taxes will give us more revenue.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.



A higher tax rate isn't "liquidating".  What's better to you - earning $100,000,000 taxed at 90%, or earning $100,000 taxed at 10%.  I'd take the former.  Or you can just pay your workers more so you won't be subject to a 90% rate.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money



So you think roads, schools, police, defense, and such are not only "problems" but also "a waste of money"?  We disagree.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.



You'll have to explain that better.  You totally lost me there.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695315 - 05/25/20 06:41 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Unless they pay wages people wont take, so they cant get those workers, that isnt important. There is a surplus of labor, so labor is less expensive.

Thats a terrible way to frame a question. Its not on you to make the value judgement of where they got the money.
They invest a d expdct a return on investmet. Workers dont take that risk.

Im not smart. I dont know you. Most people are retarded with economics. Its broad and complicated. Even people like rogan that make money often have idealized thoughts on resource distribution. I try to keep things as uncomplicated as i can, because its easy to get fucked in the minutiae(sp?).

Im not denying we would have more revinue. We would spend it all too.
Id rather have policies that encourage reinvestment than giving a beurocracy the money to fuck away in committee.

I didnt say that. Government has functions. It dkesnt mean it is incentivised to find the most cost effective or best quality contractors. The more it is allowed to allocate resources, the more oportunities for this to waste taxes. We probably should privatize roads and schools. Both are terribly mismanaged. The military is one of like, two things the government is supposed to do.

Lefties use 'taxes' as a term for paying your 'fair share', because of theabstract idea thatthe government represents the people. Its a naive way of thinking.

It isnt even efficiency that is the only issue. The government doest create products. It doesnt take risks to create a product or service when it wastes money, it just wastes it.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26695321 - 05/25/20 06:44 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I do think corperations benefit from low wages. I dont think jobs going overseas is worse than literal population replacement. Its a differant issue, and you seem to want to combine issues.


I dont think the dow reflects the economy.

-----------

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?



Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money', they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.

How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?

I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.


No, i dont like reagan. He gave amnisty to millions. I dont really like anyone from FDR to Obama.
Keep .aking bad guesses.





Correct, the stock market valuations reflects profit margins and interest rates, not the US consumer or economy. The stock market does not like high input costs (wages, energy, materials). If you take slave labor away from the global national corporations, the stock market would throw a shit fit. 

"Liquidation is all I can see happening"

That's the problem, it's all you can see in this debate. Higher tax rates are LONG term in nature, it can structurally change the economy in many instances. It's not a panic or run for the hills policy. 

"go somewhere else"

Oh no, money would the leave the US for where exactly? Russia, China, Brazil, Mexico?  I don't think so.

Also, I don't think higher taxes on billionaires hurts the US Dollar. Do you know what can hurt the US Dollar, $8-10 trillion in freshly printed money to bailout the fraud in US "capitalism" once again.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695348 - 05/25/20 06:52 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.

You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.

Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical

Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:

So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.
We have the worlds reserve currency. People like you would ruin that.
Worse, youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money

Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.




Where is all this investment that you hold so sacred occurring today? 

Do you really consider buying the bonds of debt slaves "investment"?  What about buying corporate bonds to buy back more stock shares?  What about buying US T-bonds where the taxes are not collected? 

Do you see the pattern here, the vast majority of the "investment" in this system today is about The Elite enriching themselves and owning debt slaves.

The US is falling apart because of the lack of private and public sector investment. That's exactly what The Elite wanted the whole time.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman]
    #26695373 - 05/25/20 07:08 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695411 - 05/25/20 07:22 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.




My man knows what’s what!  :poast:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695426 - 05/25/20 07:26 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Here's a hypothetical question specialpeopleclub.

Let's say I'm a guy who comes up with a great idea for a product that could make $billions.  Even though my idea is great, I'm not smart enough to actually design it, nor do I know enough about manufacturing to produce it.  I don't know how to get my idea out to everyone.  And I'm not rich enough to pay other people to do these things for me.

So I go a bank and get a large loan.  Then I hire an engineer to develop my idea, a manufacturer to build it for me, and a sales and marketing person to get the word out.

The idea makes billions.  How should the money be distributed in your opinion?

How much do I get for coming up with the idea?
How much does the engineer get for developing my idea?
How much does the manufacturer get for figuring out to manufacture it affordably?
How much does my sales and marketing person get for getting the word out to everyone?
How much does the bank get for loaning me the money in the first place?

Obviously, there is no correct answer, but you seem to be arguing that the bank should get the billions, and everyone else should get as little as the bank can get away with.  I think the bank had the smallest role to play in all this; they simply had the cash on hand.

Thoughts?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26695448 - 05/25/20 07:36 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Im not emotionally prepaired for compliments here

:awepreciation:

:bender:

------------

The bank gets interest (🔯)
You and those you hire decide on what you think is equitable. There are many peopoe that have made good products and fucked themselves because of bad buisiness skills.
McDonald's and KFC are examples if i recall, where an owner was bought out for an amount so low it seems wrong considering how it turned out.
Success wasnt guarenteed though.

My idea of wrong isnt important. Im an idiot.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695449 - 05/25/20 07:37 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.



So you think we should keep other countries down, so there aren't other safe places to invest?  That says a LOT about your position.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.



So just let the elite take everything, right?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.



Perhaps, and you can thank the Federal Reserve.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.



Who said they wanted to take control from the billionaires?  People only suggested they pay higher wages or more in taxes.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695481 - 05/25/20 07:54 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

I didnt say that. It also isnt policy to do so. The other most physically safe nations are generally our allies. We have other issues with iran.


It isnt like that. There are elietes that impose a cost. They should be shown and delt with on a person to person basis. Banks are the easiest example.


What metric are we going to use to decide what is a fair wage or tax?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695510 - 05/25/20 08:21 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
What metric are we going to use to decide what is a fair wage or tax?



I'd say that anyone you want to hire to work for you has to be given a living wage.  The exact amount is debatable, but I'd say no less than the 1968 real minimum wage (which was just over $12/hr in today's dollars).

We are human beings, not slaves, after all.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695567 - 05/25/20 09:04 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

I still think that feels slave-ish. Im just not sure of the propper way to address it. Yang's dividend was a neat idea. I think the whole way we think about money has to change though.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695850 - 05/25/20 11:53 PM (1 month, 15 days ago)

I agree.  I was definitely putting something out there on the very low end of a living wage.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 3
    #26696587 - 05/26/20 11:26 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Although it's all rehashing of previously discussed matters, Qman and falcon killin it ITT. :congrats:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26696603 - 05/26/20 11:37 AM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.




"There isn't another option"

Well, The Elite in the West invest in other parts of the world all the time. In fact, the growth rates in the emerging world are much greater than the developed world, therefore a greater ROI.

"we gave some minor problems"

The working class has serious problems and The Elite are just fine.

"The bailout won't harm us"

Sure, bailing out Wall Street and giving crumbs to Main Street won't harm anyone.

No one I suggesting bureaucracy control is the only alternative to billionaires, how about the working class having more money?  Would you take issue with wages being similar to the 1950-70's?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 1
    #26697481 - 05/26/20 06:57 PM (1 month, 14 days ago)

"Billionaires Make Out Like Bandits During Covid Economic Depression"



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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26697488 - 05/26/20 07:01 PM (1 month, 14 days ago)

Who cares? No one. It doesn't matter.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #26698364 - 05/27/20 02:58 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

If billionaires get richer, where do you think that money comes from?  People who aren't billionaires.  So anyone who isn't a billionaire should care.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26698386 - 05/27/20 03:28 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

It appears two of the tankers make it to Venezuela, despite Trump's threat that “We’ve got it surrounded, it’s surrounded at a level that nobody even knows but they know. We are watching to see what happens”


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26698518 - 05/27/20 05:57 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

:rofl:
It wouldn’t have been very good for anybody to do anything other than just monitor & track.    I’m glad.


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26698532 - 05/27/20 06:10 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It appears two of the tankers make it to Venezuela, despite Trump's threat that “We’ve got it surrounded, it’s surrounded at a level that nobody even knows but they know. We are watching to see what happens”




I guess you were just suffering from a bout of TDS


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26698661 - 05/27/20 08:06 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I agree.  I was definitely putting something out there on the very low end of a living wage.




I forget the exact time frame, but one credible study said that if wages had gone up at the same proportion as productivity, median family income in the U.S. would be 92K. At the time the study was done the median was 50K.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: koods]
    #26699085 - 05/27/20 11:35 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It appears two of the tankers make it to Venezuela, despite Trump's threat that “We’ve got it surrounded, it’s surrounded at a level that nobody even knows but they know. We are watching to see what happens”




I guess you were just suffering from a bout of TDS



Actually, it's the opposite.  Trump tends to avoid unnecessary conflict, and that's why I previously said "I'd be curious if Trump has a position on this."

TDS would make you say since Trump likes peace, you like war.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26699135 - 05/27/20 11:58 AM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Trump tends to avoid unnecessary conflict



Really?  So, arguing with a reporter is a necessary conflict? Making fun of someone with a physical impairment was a necessary conflict? 

Trump LOVES conflict.  Trump creates conflict out of thin air.  He's a coward, so he avoids conflicts that are anything other than one-sided in his favor, but he loves conflict when he can bully the shit out of someone.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Enlil]
    #26699182 - 05/27/20 12:28 PM (1 month, 13 days ago)

I meant conflict that kills people.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/27/20 12:55 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26700378 - 05/27/20 10:23 PM (1 month, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Trump tends to avoid unnecessary conflict



Really?  So, arguing with a reporter is a necessary conflict? Making fun of someone with a physical impairment was a necessary conflict? 

Trump LOVES conflict.  Trump creates conflict out of thin air.  He's a coward, so he avoids conflicts that are anything other than one-sided in his favor, but he loves conflict when he can bully the shit out of someone.




Lot's of hate and anger in this man.  Dont believe the media, they are lying to you about everything.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: meltdowner]
    #26701094 - 05/28/20 09:09 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

You're absolutely right, there is lot's lots of hate and anger in Trump.
Pretty large amount of deceit, dishonesty and racist rhetoric too.

:yesnod: . . . :peace:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: vinsue] * 2
    #26701101 - 05/28/20 09:16 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Here in Los Angeles, we have "rivers" that are actually concrete runoff drains that route water to the ocean.  Most of these rivers have a bicycle trail on either side that have underpasses to cross freeways, roads, etc.  In those underpasses are a lot of homeless camps.  I run these trails a lot, and I see a lot of homeless having very animated conversations with imaginary people.

Trump is one of those guys, only with money and power.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Enlil]
    #26701179 - 05/28/20 09:59 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Are those completely dry part of the year?

I'm thinking of the movie Repo Man where Harry Dean Stanton and Emilio Estevez are doing that chase scene with the Mexican brothers.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26701194 - 05/28/20 10:05 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Lots of famous movie scenes were shot in those rivers.  They're not usually "completely dry" but they barely have any water.  The rivers are very wide, but there's an 8 foot strip in the middle that usually has some water flowing.  Only when we have heavy rains does the whole width get used.  Still, in a county of 10 million people, there's always a few people creating runoff into the gutters.



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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Enlil]
    #26701200 - 05/28/20 10:10 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Here in Pittsburgh we have three rivers that are rather full of water, they too are lined with homeless camps where conversations with imaginary people can be overseen. Where there's a will, there's a way.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: christopera]
    #26711611 - 06/01/20 04:21 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Trumpvilles


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Swami 2,682 32 09/18/05 03:25 AM
by Unagipie
* got OIL???? Psilocybeingzz 500 3 01/19/03 11:01 PM
by GazzBut
* VENEZUELA: INTERVENTIONS 'R' US. RonoS 696 3 01/06/03 11:02 PM
by carbonhoots
* Iran, Venezuela discuss oil embargo. lonestar2004 1,366 14 08/18/05 02:12 AM
by Baby_Hitler

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