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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695214 - 05/25/20 03:30 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money'



So corporation hire people out of charity, not because they need work done to earn the company money?  :flowstone:

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
...they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.



I don't disagree.  But I disagree that workers don't earn money for the company.  Again, people aren't hired for charity.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?



Who talked about a reverse hierarchy?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.



Qman already asked you "who is calling for liquidating billionaires?  Going back to tax rates from a few decades ago isn't liquidation."

I feel the same way as qman.  Let's stop giving the billionaires giant tax breaks.

I don't know why you keep saying we want to liquidate everything billionaires have.  I guess you think you're smart if you make believe others are stupid.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/25/20 03:36 PM)


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695250 - 05/25/20 03:48 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.

You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.

Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical

Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:

So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.
We have the worlds reserve currency. People like you would ruin that.
Worse, youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money

Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695291 - 05/25/20 04:20 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.



I agree, low wage workers are replaceable.  But that doesn't make them worthless.  Stocking shelves IS an integral part of a company.  Show me a retail store that doesn't have shelf stockers.  Even Amazon needs them to keep it's warehouses stocked.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.



Why do you feel the owner, who in some cases does nothing more than invest his daddy's inheritance money, is entitled to all the company's profits and not the people who actually do the work?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical



Who said I don't recognize the importance of management?  There you go again making believing I'm dumb so you can pretend you're smart.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:



What's "the problem" you're referring to?  How do we pay for roads, schools, police, defense, and such "problems" without tax money?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?



Yes, of course collecting more in taxes will give us more revenue.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.



A higher tax rate isn't "liquidating".  What's better to you - earning $100,000,000 taxed at 90%, or earning $100,000 taxed at 10%.  I'd take the former.  Or you can just pay your workers more so you won't be subject to a 90% rate.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money



So you think roads, schools, police, defense, and such are not only "problems" but also "a waste of money"?  We disagree.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.



You'll have to explain that better.  You totally lost me there.


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695315 - 05/25/20 04:41 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Unless they pay wages people wont take, so they cant get those workers, that isnt important. There is a surplus of labor, so labor is less expensive.

Thats a terrible way to frame a question. Its not on you to make the value judgement of where they got the money.
They invest a d expdct a return on investmet. Workers dont take that risk.

Im not smart. I dont know you. Most people are retarded with economics. Its broad and complicated. Even people like rogan that make money often have idealized thoughts on resource distribution. I try to keep things as uncomplicated as i can, because its easy to get fucked in the minutiae(sp?).

Im not denying we would have more revinue. We would spend it all too.
Id rather have policies that encourage reinvestment than giving a beurocracy the money to fuck away in committee.

I didnt say that. Government has functions. It dkesnt mean it is incentivised to find the most cost effective or best quality contractors. The more it is allowed to allocate resources, the more oportunities for this to waste taxes. We probably should privatize roads and schools. Both are terribly mismanaged. The military is one of like, two things the government is supposed to do.

Lefties use 'taxes' as a term for paying your 'fair share', because of theabstract idea thatthe government represents the people. Its a naive way of thinking.

It isnt even efficiency that is the only issue. The government doest create products. It doesnt take risks to create a product or service when it wastes money, it just wastes it.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26695321 - 05/25/20 04:44 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I do think corperations benefit from low wages. I dont think jobs going overseas is worse than literal population replacement. Its a differant issue, and you seem to want to combine issues.


I dont think the dow reflects the economy.

-----------

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?



Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money', they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.

How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?

I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.


No, i dont like reagan. He gave amnisty to millions. I dont really like anyone from FDR to Obama.
Keep .aking bad guesses.





Correct, the stock market valuations reflects profit margins and interest rates, not the US consumer or economy. The stock market does not like high input costs (wages, energy, materials). If you take slave labor away from the global national corporations, the stock market would throw a shit fit. 

"Liquidation is all I can see happening"

That's the problem, it's all you can see in this debate. Higher tax rates are LONG term in nature, it can structurally change the economy in many instances. It's not a panic or run for the hills policy. 

"go somewhere else"

Oh no, money would the leave the US for where exactly? Russia, China, Brazil, Mexico?  I don't think so.

Also, I don't think higher taxes on billionaires hurts the US Dollar. Do you know what can hurt the US Dollar, $8-10 trillion in freshly printed money to bailout the fraud in US "capitalism" once again.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695348 - 05/25/20 04:52 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You are putting words to me i didnt say. Low wage workers are replaceable. Stocking shelves doesnt make you an integral part of a company.

You agree to the pay when you start to work. Thats what you earn. You arent ebtitled to more because the company would fail if noone did the job. In this situation, you already work there.

Paying workers extravagantly because you dont recognize the importance of management seems reverse hierarchical

Collecting more taxes wont solve the problem. Its just a way for the less fourtunate to get their feelings :whatever:

So you think just going back a few decades in tax code will give us the revenue to fix our problems?
Youd have to liquidate them. Suddenly having a 90% tax rate or some other measure that makes investment less appealing isnt good.
We have the worlds reserve currency. People like you would ruin that.
Worse, youd ruin it for taxes. As though taxes are a charity and not a waste of money

Lefties always conflate helping the public with taxes. Throwing food away counts as feeding the homeless too.




Where is all this investment that you hold so sacred occurring today? 

Do you really consider buying the bonds of debt slaves "investment"?  What about buying corporate bonds to buy back more stock shares?  What about buying US T-bonds where the taxes are not collected? 

Do you see the pattern here, the vast majority of the "investment" in this system today is about The Elite enriching themselves and owning debt slaves.

The US is falling apart because of the lack of private and public sector investment. That's exactly what The Elite wanted the whole time.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman]
    #26695373 - 05/25/20 05:08 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.


--------------------


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695411 - 05/25/20 05:22 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.




My man knows what’s what!  :poast:


--------------------
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In the space where all experience remains in potential,
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the original spontaneity of our sovereign nature of mind:
Indivisible from that, unmoving, to that we bow down.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695426 - 05/25/20 05:26 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Here's a hypothetical question specialpeopleclub.

Let's say I'm a guy who comes up with a great idea for a product that could make $billions.  Even though my idea is great, I'm not smart enough to actually design it, nor do I know enough about manufacturing to produce it.  I don't know how to get my idea out to everyone.  And I'm not rich enough to pay other people to do these things for me.

So I go a bank and get a large loan.  Then I hire an engineer to develop my idea, a manufacturer to build it for me, and a sales and marketing person to get the word out.

The idea makes billions.  How should the money be distributed in your opinion?

How much do I get for coming up with the idea?
How much does the engineer get for developing my idea?
How much does the manufacturer get for figuring out to manufacture it affordably?
How much does my sales and marketing person get for getting the word out to everyone?
How much does the bank get for loaning me the money in the first place?

Obviously, there is no correct answer, but you seem to be arguing that the bank should get the billions, and everyone else should get as little as the bank can get away with.  I think the bank had the smallest role to play in all this; they simply had the cash on hand.

Thoughts?


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26695448 - 05/25/20 05:36 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Im not emotionally prepaired for compliments here

:awepreciation:

:bender:

------------

The bank gets interest (🔯)
You and those you hire decide on what you think is equitable. There are many peopoe that have made good products and fucked themselves because of bad buisiness skills.
McDonald's and KFC are examples if i recall, where an owner was bought out for an amount so low it seems wrong considering how it turned out.
Success wasnt guarenteed though.

My idea of wrong isnt important. Im an idiot.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695449 - 05/25/20 05:37 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.



So you think we should keep other countries down, so there aren't other safe places to invest?  That says a LOT about your position.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.



So just let the elite take everything, right?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.



Perhaps, and you can thank the Federal Reserve.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.



Who said they wanted to take control from the billionaires?  People only suggested they pay higher wages or more in taxes.


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695481 - 05/25/20 05:54 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I didnt say that. It also isnt policy to do so. The other most physically safe nations are generally our allies. We have other issues with iran.


It isnt like that. There are elietes that impose a cost. They should be shown and delt with on a person to person basis. Banks are the easiest example.


What metric are we going to use to decide what is a fair wage or tax?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695510 - 05/25/20 06:21 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
What metric are we going to use to decide what is a fair wage or tax?



I'd say that anyone you want to hire to work for you has to be given a living wage.  The exact amount is debatable, but I'd say no less than the 1968 real minimum wage (which was just over $12/hr in today's dollars).

We are human beings, not slaves, after all.


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695567 - 05/25/20 07:04 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I still think that feels slave-ish. Im just not sure of the propper way to address it. Yang's dividend was a neat idea. I think the whole way we think about money has to change though.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26695850 - 05/25/20 09:53 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

I agree.  I was definitely putting something out there on the very low end of a living wage.


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 3
    #26696587 - 05/26/20 09:26 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Although it's all rehashing of previously discussed matters, Qman and falcon killin it ITT. :congrats:


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26696603 - 05/26/20 09:37 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We are the safest place to invest. There isnt another option. Id rather not see our policies make one appear. Our geography spoils us.

All this 'elite' talk bores me. We arent 'falling apart', we have some minor problems.
Im not familiar with bonds.

We are in deflation. The bailout wont harm us, and we could do several more before it does ive heard.

I dont disagree that debt slavery is bad. This is getting broad though. I havent ever liked that one could gamble away a house or more then they could pay, for example.
These are disperate issues.
My main point is that giving a burocracy control rather than the billionaires is a bad trade off that society would gain nothing from.




"There isn't another option"

Well, The Elite in the West invest in other parts of the world all the time. In fact, the growth rates in the emerging world are much greater than the developed world, therefore a greater ROI.

"we gave some minor problems"

The working class has serious problems and The Elite are just fine.

"The bailout won't harm us"

Sure, bailing out Wall Street and giving crumbs to Main Street won't harm anyone.

No one I suggesting bureaucracy control is the only alternative to billionaires, how about the working class having more money?  Would you take issue with wages being similar to the 1950-70's?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 1
    #26697481 - 05/26/20 04:57 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

"Billionaires Make Out Like Bandits During Covid Economic Depression"



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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26697488 - 05/26/20 05:01 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

Who cares? No one. It doesn't matter.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #26698364 - 05/27/20 12:58 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

If billionaires get richer, where do you think that money comes from?  People who aren't billionaires.  So anyone who isn't a billionaire should care.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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