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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26693637 - 05/24/20 10:17 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Looks like one of the tankers made it:

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/may/24/iran-oil-tanker-reaches-venezuela-no-sign-us-threa/
...
By Scott Smith - Associated Press - Sunday, May 24, 2020
CARACAS, Venezuela — The first of five tankers loaded with gasoline sent from Iran reached Venezuelan waters late Saturday, expected to temporarily ease the South American nation’s fuel crunch while defying Trump administration sanctions targeting the two U.S. foes.

The oil tanker Fortune encountered no immediate signs of U.S. interference as it eased through Caribbean waters toward the Venezuelan coast and Venezuelan officials celebrated the arrival.

“Iran and Venezuela have always supported each other in times of difficulty,” Venezuelan Foreign Minister Jorge Arreaza tweeted. “Today, the first ship with gasoline arrives for our people.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (05/24/20 10:17 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26693655 - 05/24/20 10:23 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You can appear to have a functioning economy with poor fundamentals and corruption. China is an example. Communist nations do things like running factories with no demand to look productive.



What do you mean "no demand"?  Most of things I around me that I just picked up and looked at were made in China, such as my Lenovo ThinkPad.  I work in a company that makes chip making equipment, and most of the parts in our tools are made in China.  What makes you believe China factories have no demand?

Source, or make believe?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We keep them safe for our allies. Not some altruistic reason



Yes, you clarified that.  When you said "we keep the trade routs safe", that sounded altruistic.  Now I realize you meant our ships keep our billionaires rich at the expense of socialist countries.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
I dont think there was ever a chance they would succeed.



The more they succeed, the harder we step in to stop them.  We should just leave socialist countries alone to fail so people like me don't become suspicious.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26693739 - 05/24/20 10:57 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The ussr also had factories on when they werent needed. It creates an appearance of productivity, and keeps the people above you happy.
It was an example of the dishonest things these sort of government use.

Ive linked many times where i get my understanding.
Believe me or dont. You think Venezuela would somehow succeed without the US. Why woyld i try to convince a lefty of anything? They already make excuses for reality at every turn, except believing in god. The lefties really like acting as though that gives them monopoly on 'science'.

Thats a framed way to put it. You could empty every billionaires billions into the pockets of the poor and we would be no wealthier.
Inequality is the sign of a working economy to some extent. Everyone being equal or relatively equal means we are poor as a society. The total material wealth of society is more important.

We dont really do that much. Not allowing cuba to trade with us, or stopping a few ships isnt going to induce failiure in working economies.
You have it literally backwards. Vietnam is still under a communist regeme, but theirs made better choices.

You seem to not understand the importance of markets and how they allow more efficient ways of distributing resources and wealth. Its convoluted and impractical for centralized governments to dictate these things.

Why do you think we would be able to keep these nations down if they had such successful models?


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Offlineqman
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26693881 - 05/25/20 12:21 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Higher after tax wages and stronger social services makes people "no wealthier"? That doesn't make any sense. How come globalization, immigration and lower tax rates makes billionaires wealthier, but reversing that distribution doesn't work its way downward?

Wealth and income inequality is obviously inevitable, but it's too what degree. Today, it's near a 100 year high and we're suffering the economic implications on that outcome. Guess who is very outspoken about that dangerous inequality today? The billionaires themselves.

So please, can anyone explain why so many of the broke peasants are defending the billionaires, while those very same billionaires are telling the world the current wealth distribution isn't socially or economically healthy?

BTW, the West is no longer capitalistic anymore. The current crisis proves once more it's all about privatizing the profits and socializing the losses. Just because the "markets" trade M-F, it hardly means the West practices free market capitalism.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman] * 1
    #26693902 - 05/25/20 12:34 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Yeah, fuck you "fiscal hawks" that advocate for complete privatization for any government task. "Da private sector can do it cheaper and more efficient". Wonder what the true cost is; if you added up all the bailouts and tax breaks?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26693915 - 05/25/20 12:44 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

To what degree indeed.

We still have markets. Complete libertarianism isnt a real solution.


Taking a billionare and liquidating them isnt going to pay for shit, and youll destroy the infrastructure they made in this case.
We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy.

Being wealthy doesnt mean you understand economics. Look at Rogan.
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Yeah, fuck you "fiscal hawks" that advocate for complete privatization for any government task. "Da private sector can do it cheaper and more efficient". Wonder what the true cost is; if you added up all the bailouts and tax breaks?



government is inefficient. There arent incentives to provide good service. Same with monopolistic companies like comcast.
A tax break isnt a cost. Thats your money.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26693983 - 05/25/20 01:45 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
The ussr also had factories on when they werent needed. It creates an appearance of productivity, and keeps the people above you happy.
It was an example of the dishonest things these sort of government use.

Ive linked many times where i get my understanding.
Believe me or dont.



Why would a factory not produce anything, unless you think the USSR already had everything it needed?

Source, or make believe?  I think you need to stop listening to establishment propaganda.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You think Venezuela would somehow succeed without the US.



We KNOW they became the richest country in Latin America before America put an end to it.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Why woyld i try to convince a lefty of anything? They already make excuses for reality at every turn, except believing in god. The lefties really like acting as though that gives them monopoly on 'science'.



Other posters here can tell you I frequently defend Trump against all the make believe against him.  I'll take whichever side has better information, which isn't always my own side.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
We dont really do that much. Not allowing cuba to trade with us, or stopping a few ships isnt going to induce failiure in working economies.



Of course it hurts them.  A lot.  That's why we'll never lift the embargo on Cuba.  Do you think they're a terrorist county that deserves to be embargoed?  No.  We're just frightened they might do better if they start trading with the US.  Do you have any idea how many billions Cuba has lost from the embargo?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You seem to not understand the importance of markets and how they allow more efficient ways of distributing resources and wealth. Its convoluted and impractical for centralized governments to dictate these things.



Are we talking about communism or socialism?  Venezuela is socialist last I checked.
I actually have an MBA from a decent business school.  What's your qualifications outside of listening to propagandists?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Why do you think we would be able to keep these nations down if they had such successful models?



It's funny you ask me that while claiming I don't understand markets.  Venezuela had been trading with other countries for many of its goods and services.  When we cut that off, it took a huge toll on them, as we knew it would.

Economic Sanctions as Collective Punishment: The Case of Venezuela
Quote:

Executive Summary

This paper looks at some of the most important impacts of the economic sanctions imposed on Venezuela by the US government since August of 2017. It finds that most of the impact of these sanctions has not been on the government but on the civilian population.

The sanctions reduced the public’s caloric intake, increased disease and mortality (for both adults and infants), and displaced millions of Venezuelans who fled the country as a result of the worsening economic depression and hyperinflation. They exacerbated Venezuela’s economic crisis and made it nearly impossible to stabilize the economy, contributing further to excess deaths. All of these impacts disproportionately harmed the poorest and most vulnerable Venezuelans.

We find that the sanctions have inflicted, and increasingly inflict, very serious harm to human life and health, including an estimated more than 40,000 deaths from 2017–2018; and that these sanctions would fit the definition of collective punishment of the civilian population as described in both the Geneva and Hague international conventions, to which the US is a signatory. They are also illegal under international law and treaties which the US has signed, and would appear to violate US law as well.




And it's going to get worse:



--------------------
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26694331 - 05/25/20 08:55 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.

That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade. They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons such as being other communist states.

We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.




China has a fragile economy? OK, every country has a fragile economy, but there's isn't more fragile than ours. And it will overtake ours in size in this decade.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694337 - 05/25/20 09:00 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Soyou are going to say that all of the venezualen collapse is because we purposefully caused it?
China,the largest socialist nation, has a fragile economy because of us?
Communist countries lie about their numbers. They also had geographical advantages that let them last longer despite their bad practices.

That isnt blocking 'socialism', thats blocking trade. They arent going to start refining again.
Their product wasso bad that noone wanted to buy except to prop them up for political reasons such as being other communist states.

We control trade. It doesnt matter of its immoral.




Could you explain, if we control trade, why is our balance of trade so bad.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26694638 - 05/25/20 12:15 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

China wont overtake us. Their economyn is made of false numbers. Its more likely they break apart as hey have been most of their history. China relies on us.

Our balance of trade isnt bad. We are the least involved nation as a part of our gdp in trade. We are needed more than we need anyone else.

Nations keep factories running that arent producing to show proructive numbers. It doesnt mean they had everything they needed.

Being the wealthiest dosnt mean you have good economic fundrinentals.
Venezuala had bad practices and their politicians stole their money. They built dams for energy before a draught.
You can say how they were the wealthiest, but that just shows how poorly they managed what they had.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26694752 - 05/25/20 01:14 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The U.S. has had an unfavorable balance of trade every year since 1975.

Apparently my graduating from High School triggered our trade collapse.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.


Edited by Brian Jones (05/25/20 01:16 PM)


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Offlinespecialpeopleclub
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26694773 - 05/25/20 01:29 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

They rely on our markets to sell their goods.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694810 - 05/25/20 01:55 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
They rely on our markets to sell their goods.



What does that mean?  We buy some of their goods?


--------------------
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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694813 - 05/25/20 01:56 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
To what degree indeed.

We still have markets. Complete libertarianism isnt a real solution.


Taking a billionare and liquidating them isnt going to pay for shit, and youll destroy the infrastructure they made in this case.
We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy.

Being wealthy doesnt mean you understand economics. Look at




Yes, we have markets, but The Elite privatize the gains and socialize the losses. That isn't free market capitalism, that's corporate fascism.

BTW, who is calling for liquidating billionaires?  Going back to tax rates from a few decades ago isn't liquidation.

"We just saw 3 trillion get absorbed by our deflating economy"

Is that what you call socializing the losses and bailing out The Elite?


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694833 - 05/25/20 02:04 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
China wont overtake us. Their economyn is made of false numbers. Its more likely they break apart as hey have been most of their history. China relies on us.

Our balance of trade isnt bad. We are the least involved nation as a part of our gdp in trade. We are needed more than we need anyone else.

Nations keep factories running that arent producing to show proructive numbers. It doesnt mean they had everything they needed.

Being the wealthiest dosnt mean you have good economic fundrinentals.
Venezuala had bad practices and their politicians stole their money. They built dams for energy before a draught.
You can say how they were the wealthiest, but that just shows how poorly they managed what they had.




Our trade deficit is bad, not for The Elite that you seem to protect, it's bad for the 99% that have to pay the price. You do remember that Trump ran on getting rid of that trade deficit, was he wrong about it?

"China relies on us"

US based global corporations rely on China for cheap production, take that away and profit margins crash and so does the stock market.

If China kicks the US companies out of China, those companies are fucked for a very long time. Let's be perfectly honest here, China and the US aren't enemies, they are very tight business partners. There never was any sort of trade war, it was all for show.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub]
    #26694838 - 05/25/20 02:05 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
They rely on our markets to sell their goods.




We rely on their workers and infrastructure to produce many of our goods.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: qman]
    #26694877 - 05/25/20 02:26 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.

You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have. Its not good that we bail out companies that shouldnt be.

We have demand, and needed money. We easilly absorbed the 3 trillion.

You people attach too much morality to money.

We dont rely on them. If china disappeared we would recover. Our economics are more sound, our military is centuries ahead of theirs, we are energy independent, we cant be blocked in geographically.
Anything they do to us is a minor setback.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 2
    #26694976 - 05/25/20 03:05 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.

You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have. Its not good that we bail out companies that shouldnt be.

We have demand, and needed money. We easilly absorbed the 3 trillion.

You people attach too much morality to money.

We dont rely on them. If china disappeared we would recover. Our economics are more sound, our military is centuries ahead of theirs, we are energy independent, we cant be blocked in geographically.
Anything they do to us is a minor setback.




You don't think shipping tens of millions of good paying manufacturing jobs out of the US the past 40 years had a significant impact of US real wages going down?  Immigration is really bad for US wages, but shipping high quality jobs out of the US is even worse.

You don't think billionaires benefit from low wages from the working class?  You don't think they benefit from tax cuts?  You don't think they benefit from third world slave labor?  That all comes at the expense of the US working class, there's no disassociating from those economic realities.

Actually, taxes would be the main starting point for fixing the massive wealth and income inequality. If billionaires favor trickle down economics, therefore I favor trickle up taxation.

"We have demand, and needed money"

Oh, you mean the corporations pissed away tens of trillions on stock buybacks the past 15 years and are now loaded with trillions of debt they can't service, therefore The Fed needs to bail them out with trillions of free money.

"We don't rely on them"

Tell me what happens when the cheap slave labor isn't available for global corporations?  Dow 3000.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: specialpeopleclub] * 1
    #26695028 - 05/25/20 03:31 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US Threatens Iranian Oil Shipments to Venezuela [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26695170 - 05/25/20 04:59 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

I do think corperations benefit from low wages. I dont think jobs going overseas is worse than literal population replacement. Its a differant issue, and you seem to want to combine issues.


I dont think the dow reflects the economy.

-----------

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Good answers qman.  :thumbup:

Specialpeopleclub, you're a propaganda machine!  You faithfully repeat whatever nonsense the establishment feeds you, with no analysis whatsoever!

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
Most of the problems of the '99%' are due to immigration stagnating wages.

I denounce the idea that the billionaires are why the '99%' are not doing as well as theyd like.



Actually, most of the problems are due to the super wealthy not sharing revenues with their workers who earn it for them.  There was a time when profits used to be shared with everyone in the company, but ever since Reagan, that's come to an end and the wealthy get it all:



I'll be you like Reagan, don't you?  Read more on how bad he fucked America.

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You arent taxing your way out of the problems we have.



How do you propose paying for things like roads, schools, police, defense, etc if not taxation?

Quote:

specialpeopleclub said:
You people attach too much morality to money.



So it's bad that we think money should be shared with the people who earn it?  The rich should keep all the money we make and everything will be ok?



Your questions come from bad premises. Workers dont 'earn the money', they participate in infrastructure made by wealthier people. They dont take the risks of being an entrepreneur.

How the fuck do you expect a reverse hirarchy to work?

I didnt say taxes are pointless, just that you could liquidate all the billionairs and spend their money, and youd be just as poor when your done. Liquidation is all i can see happening, because anyone seeing this coming would go somewhere else. It would also destroy our currency when noone invests here.


No, i dont like reagan. He gave amnisty to millions. I dont really like anyone from FDR to Obama.
Keep .aking bad guesses.


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