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InvisibleDCAE
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Registered: 02/21/20
Posts: 41
Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: MerryMoose]
    #26688942 - 05/22/20 09:14 PM (12 days, 9 hours ago)

some brands of coir deliberately mix trichoderma as biofertilizer in their products designed to help plants grow stronger, healthier roots and improve the overall condition of the soil.

ofcourse this offers no help at all for growing fungi

if you are ABSOLUTELY positive your spawn is clean then the coir might be your problem

correct me if im wrong but is not the bucket tek just partial pasteurization?

you might want to look into another brand of coir.
Possibly the ones ment for reptile bedding and not Hydroponics.


Edited by DCAE (05/23/20 12:41 AM)


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: DCAE]
    #26689163 - 05/22/20 11:10 PM (12 days, 7 hours ago)

Coir is the issue. I'm 100% sure.

I recently had my first tub get trich, it was made with just coir, I have not had a single contam otherwise. I think the coir allows 'weak' mycelium to colonize, and is not thick enough to build a strong mycelium, allowing invaders to easily take hold. I don't believe that trich grows well on manure. I had even pasteurized this coir before spawning the tub, even though people say it's not necessary.

For your situation, I'd start incorporating manure into your grows. If you have trich in your jars, you'll see it before spawning. You're getting it from spawning your tubs, it's in the air around you, probably in high amounts. I'm guessing the wood in your grow area has it. If I were you, I'd soak, SOAK everything in a bleach solution spray. Probably 2-3 times over the next 2-3 days to ensure that everything is SOAKED. I would wipe down my jars 2-3 times a day with alcohol or bleach wipes, repeatedly to ensure that I don't miss any spots. I would run an air purifier. I would go way overboard or I would give up basically. No point doing this stuff half assed....Again, incorporate manure. The hardware store sells bags of composted manure that isn't the best, but it'll do the trick, you get fruits that are way more solid and larger than coir fruits. The bacteria in manure that survives pasteurization fights trich well, I think that's why I had never encountered trich on my subs before switching to coir before, the trich was being fought off....correct me if I'm wrong.


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InvisibleAnastomosis
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Ep1429]
    #26689332 - 05/23/20 12:40 AM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

If you are just seeing it after spawning,    it's in your g2g process. Probably have an unusually high mold spore count where you're storing your masters. Clean the outside of your master jars better. Be sure to get around the rim well before opening the lid.
Assume all your jars that have been g2g are no good. Start with new masters and be diligent about cleaning before g2g


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InvisibleModularMind
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Ep1429]
    #26689356 - 05/23/20 12:55 AM (12 days, 5 hours ago)

What brand coir are you using?


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Justweed]
    #26689632 - 05/23/20 05:56 AM (12 days, 48 minutes ago)

Quote:

Justweed said:
Coir is the issue. I'm 100% sure.

I recently had my first tub get trich, it was made with just coir, I have not had a single contam otherwise. I think the coir allows 'weak' mycelium to colonize, and is not thick enough to build a strong mycelium, allowing invaders to easily take hold. I don't believe that trich grows well on manure. I had even pasteurized this coir before spawning the tub, even though people say it's not necessary.

For your situation, I'd start incorporating manure into your grows. If you have trich in your jars, you'll see it before spawning. You're getting it from spawning your tubs, it's in the air around you, probably in high amounts. I'm guessing the wood in your grow area has it. If I were you, I'd soak, SOAK everything in a bleach solution spray. Probably 2-3 times over the next 2-3 days to ensure that everything is SOAKED. I would wipe down my jars 2-3 times a day with alcohol or bleach wipes, repeatedly to ensure that I don't miss any spots. I would run an air purifier. I would go way overboard or I would give up basically. No point doing this stuff half assed....Again, incorporate manure. The hardware store sells bags of composted manure that isn't the best, but it'll do the trick, you get fruits that are way more solid and larger than coir fruits. The bacteria in manure that survives pasteurization fights trich well, I think that's why I had never encountered trich on my subs before switching to coir before, the trich was being fought off....correct me if I'm wrong.




I think you are mixing up some correlation and causation

First off, in our applications trich doesnt really grow on coir or manure. It grows on mycelium.  It parasitizes other fungi. It will not grow on a coir doormat, or on coir left out in open air

HOWEVER some brands of coir add live trich myc to their coir, and all coir will have some level of trich spores. Bucket tek should kill it, but in my experience some brands (especially chunkier ones) trich out way too easy even w clean spawn and bucket tek. Other brands dont even require bucket tek

Manure based subs can absolutely contam too. Honestly i wouldnt use manure until you work out the coir issues, coir is way more forgiving and doesnt require proper pasteurization.  And i love manure


All that said, at least 90% of the time the issue is dirty spawn (bad clean tek, etc)


--------------------

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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: MerryMoose]
    #26691870 - 05/24/20 08:11 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

MerryMoose said:
Are you using the same batch of coir or have you purchased new coir?

I started having similar problems where all my tubs kept stalling, even after pinning in jars, they would stall when I put them in tubs with coir.

Didn't matter how much pasteurizing I did, whatever was in there seemed resistant to heat.

Waiting for new spawn to colonize and trying a different brand of coir this time around.



Quote:

MerryMoose said:
Are you using the same batch of coir or have you purchased new coir?

I started having similar problems where all my tubs kept stalling, even after pinning in jars, they would stall when I put them in tubs with coir.

Didn't matter how much pasteurizing I did, whatever was in there seemed resistant to heat.

Waiting for new spawn to colonize and trying a different brand of coir this time around.




I have tried two brands of coir.  The EcoEarth, and the brand Walmart sells in their Garden Center.


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: A.k.a]
    #26691876 - 05/24/20 08:19 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
It can only be the g2g technique then right?

That’s the only variable if you g2gd half a jar and the original jar grew fine but the receiving jar didn’t.

The other weird thing is green showing up during knots. Usually it would come after the flush.


A few months back chronicr had the same thing. I think it’s the first few pages of the let’s grow some mold thread.

Everything looks great-plates, jars, colonization. But then right at pinning it all would go green.


The only other thing I can think of would be if you’re pcing all the jars at once. Then you inoculate the master while the rest wait for it to colonize. There could be a contam in all of them that doesn’t have time to recover in the jar knocked up right away but gets established in the waiting receiving jars.

Or it could be meshed in the myc and doesn’t activate until hitting grain, and it doesn’t have time to take over the first jar but once it’s introduced into the new jars it’s ready to go.

Have you restarted the whole thing with spores or have you been using a certain clone the whole time?


———-
I just went back and read the whole thread, the spawn jars look pretty bacterial to me as does the myc in some of those tubs.

The yellowish tint and swollen knots is similar to what I see with bacteria too. I think it’s similar to what I said before, the bacteria exists in the master but the myc holds it back then when it’s g2g it can take off enough on the fresh grains to kill the tubs later.





I went all the way back to spores to try to fix this.  Which is a mixed bag, because the genetics I got on this go from spores produce mushrooms which are a lot stronger, and I mean a LOT stronger, than the genetics I’ve gotten the last two times I started from spores, but the yield is down per qt jar.

As for jar prep, I am not preparing more oats until the master jar is fully colonized.  I don’t let jars sit for more than a day before using them.

I’ve tried dryer oats in the jars, I’ve boiled them until ~20% burst as well.  The water content of the oats doesn’t seem to matter.  The mold still comes at knotting.

And even the G2G jars appear healthy when I break them up.  If they were bacterial, they’d smell like Satan’s @$$hole when I cracked the lid.

And it can’t be environmental, since the agar jars flush twice before I start to see problems.

I have wracked my brain trying to figure this out, and I’m completely stumped.


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: DCAE]
    #26691879 - 05/24/20 08:20 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

DCAE said:
some brands of coir deliberately mix trichoderma as biofertilizer in their products designed to help plants grow stronger, healthier roots and improve the overall condition of the soil.

ofcourse this offers no help at all for growing fungi

if you are ABSOLUTELY positive your spawn is clean then the coir might be your problem

correct me if im wrong but is not the bucket tek just partial pasteurization?

you might want to look into another brand of coir.
Possibly the ones ment for reptile bedding and not Hydroponics.




I’m using the EcoEarth reptile bedding coir.  It has worked for me flawlessly in the past, so unless they started adding something, I’m leaning towards the contams being my fault.


--------------------


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26691885 - 05/24/20 08:25 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
Quote:

Justweed said:
Coir is the issue. I'm 100% sure.

I recently had my first tub get trich, it was made with just coir, I have not had a single contam otherwise. I think the coir allows 'weak' mycelium to colonize, and is not thick enough to build a strong mycelium, allowing invaders to easily take hold. I don't believe that trich grows well on manure. I had even pasteurized this coir before spawning the tub, even though people say it's not necessary.

For your situation, I'd start incorporating manure into your grows. If you have trich in your jars, you'll see it before spawning. You're getting it from spawning your tubs, it's in the air around you, probably in high amounts. I'm guessing the wood in your grow area has it. If I were you, I'd soak, SOAK everything in a bleach solution spray. Probably 2-3 times over the next 2-3 days to ensure that everything is SOAKED. I would wipe down my jars 2-3 times a day with alcohol or bleach wipes, repeatedly to ensure that I don't miss any spots. I would run an air purifier. I would go way overboard or I would give up basically. No point doing this stuff half assed....Again, incorporate manure. The hardware store sells bags of composted manure that isn't the best, but it'll do the trick, you get fruits that are way more solid and larger than coir fruits. The bacteria in manure that survives pasteurization fights trich well, I think that's why I had never encountered trich on my subs before switching to coir before, the trich was being fought off....correct me if I'm wrong.




I think you are mixing up some correlation and causation

First off, in our applications trich doesnt really grow on coir or manure. It grows on mycelium.  It parasitizes other fungi. It will not grow on a coir doormat, or on coir left out in open air

HOWEVER some brands of coir add live trich myc to their coir, and all coir will have some level of trich spores. Bucket tek should kill it, but in my experience some brands (especially chunkier ones) trich out way too easy even w clean spawn and bucket tek. Other brands dont even require bucket tek

Manure based subs can absolutely contam too. Honestly i wouldnt use manure until you work out the coir issues, coir is way more forgiving and doesnt require proper pasteurization.  And i love manure


All that said, at least 90% of the time the issue is dirty spawn (bad clean tek, etc)




If it were the coir, I’d be seeing the same problem with the agar jars.  Ditto if it were mold counts in the air.  The lid is off the jar roughly the same amount of time it takes to drop a wedge in as it is to pour some grains in.

And my sterile technique has been fine in the past.  That’s what I don’t get.  I’m not a noob who has never made this work, I’ve got grow logs on the site where my G2G goes just fine.


--------------------


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Anastomosis]
    #26691889 - 05/24/20 08:27 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Anastomosis said:
If you are just seeing it after spawning,    it's in your g2g process. Probably have an unusually high mold spore count where you're storing your masters. Clean the outside of your master jars better. Be sure to get around the rim well before opening the lid.
Assume all your jars that have been g2g are no good. Start with new masters and be diligent about cleaning before g2g




I do assume my G2G jars are all bad.  In fact, I just ordered 500 Petri dishes because I can’t trust G2G and need to start everything on agar to be sure the spawn is clean.


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InvisibleApples in Mono
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Ep1429]
    #26691932 - 05/24/20 08:50 AM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

Man, this sounds rough. But at least it makes for a good thread; I do love mysteries and problem solving.

Have you tried setting up your SAB in a different location for your G2G work, if that's an option?

Is there ANYTHING you can think of that changed about your G2G procedure? Anything at all?

Have you considered a flowhood?


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OfflineA.k.a
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26691955 - 05/24/20 09:02 AM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

But the difference between a2g and g2g jars is that if the mold is meshed in the culture it gets way more time to grow when you do g2g. With a2g it gets like two weeks and is competing with myc from the start so it doesn’t get far and the jars are ok.

But if you take the jar and spread it out with g2g then the mold or whatever gets to grow for another two weeks before hitting coir.

I’m thinking like a rabbit and the hare thing.

Say the contam moves much faster than the myc but it takes 10 days to germinate. In the agar jar by the time the contam germs at day 10 the myc has claimed most of the grains. But then when you g2g it in the second jars there’s no 10 day period so it can move right away and claims way more real estate in those jars.


That’s the only thing that I can think of that explains it.


--------------------
LAGM2020


Edited by A.k.a (05/24/20 09:04 AM)


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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Apples in Mono]
    #26691973 - 05/24/20 09:17 AM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

I had this same problem many years ago when I was first making the jump from cakes to grains. After a few failed attempts I decided to stick with what works. All my spawn is still A2G. Instead of increasing colonization speed, I make another batch of jars and have more new spawn every few days.


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: A.k.a]
    #26692092 - 05/24/20 10:32 AM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
But the difference between a2g and g2g jars is that if the mold is meshed in the culture it gets way more time to grow when you do g2g. With a2g it gets like two weeks and is competing with myc from the start so it doesn’t get far and the jars are ok.

But if you take the jar and spread it out with g2g then the mold or whatever gets to grow for another two weeks before hitting coir.

I’m thinking like a rabbit and the hare thing.

Say the contam moves much faster than the myc but it takes 10 days to germinate. In the agar jar by the time the contam germs at day 10 the myc has claimed most of the grains. But then when you g2g it in the second jars there’s no 10 day period so it can move right away and claims way more real estate in those jars.


That’s the only thing that I can think of that explains it.






The thing is, I’m almost certain the agar is clean. I’m not storing this culture in the fridge. When the plate is ready, I transfer away from it, then cut the wedge and drop it. I’m on transfer 6 on three separate clones I took from the first spore restart flush. It’s gotta be clean by now.


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: LadysKnight]
    #26692102 - 05/24/20 10:35 AM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
I had this same problem many years ago when I was first making the jump from cakes to grains. After a few failed attempts I decided to stick with what works. All my spawn is still A2G. Instead of increasing colonization speed, I make another batch of jars and have more new spawn every few days.




That’s exactly where I’m at. I am only counting on the A2G to work, but I’m an OCD type person, and I can’t leave the G2G problem alone. It bugs me subconsciously.


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Offlinelateforthafuture
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Ep1429]
    #26692150 - 05/24/20 10:57 AM (10 days, 19 hours ago)

I'm just going to throw this out there..and I might get flamed for it. I'd try switching your bulk sub to straw/hpoo/verm...properly pasteurized. I know plenty of people swear by coir and do very...very well with it. I know some people have issues with how they prepare it. Some people swear by the bucket tech...some properly pasturize it..I've even heard of one person who had nothing but contams with coir until he sterilized it. Me personally I've had terrible experiences with coir..and nothing and I mean nothing but good experiences with straw/hpoo/verm.

This is of course asssuming you are 100 percent sure your spawn is clean...but it sounds like you have that under control for the most part.

Maybe try one tub G2G to straw/hpoo/verm and see what happens...


--------------------
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: lateforthafuture]
    #26692314 - 05/24/20 12:15 PM (10 days, 18 hours ago)

That parent plate dosent look clean to me. From the previous post. It looks like it has a contamination.


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Sockadin]
    #26692570 - 05/24/20 02:30 PM (10 days, 16 hours ago)

Just wanna get this in my Threads. Interested to see how things shake out. Have you tried praying?  :chase:


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Sockadin]
    #26692955 - 05/24/20 05:44 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
That parent plate dosent look clean to me. From the previous post. It looks like it has a contamination.




Well, it is possible since I opened it up and cut a big chuck out of it five days ago then never wrapped it back up.


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OfflineEp1429
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Re: Green mold, out of ideas [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26692956 - 05/24/20 05:45 PM (10 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
Just wanna get this in my Threads. Interested to see how things shake out. Have you tried praying?  :chase:




Sacrificed a goat and everything.


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