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OfflineAsanteA
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To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing?
    #26684862 - 05/21/20 07:17 AM (8 days, 18 hours ago)




To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Asante]
    #26685499 - 05/21/20 01:33 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

We divide human drives into three groups: (1) those drives that can be satisfied with minimal effort; (2) those that can be satisfied but only at the cost of serious effort; (3) those that cannot be adequately satisfied no matter how much effort one makes. The power process is the process of satisfying the drives of the second group. The more drives there are in the third group, the more there is frustration, anger, eventually defeatism, depression, etc. link

I put serious effort into gardening, but it is a surrogate activity



Altho the majority of New ager's would place their spiritual pursuits in the second group, I think mine may be in both the first and third.


Edited by Buster_Brown (05/21/20 02:01 PM)


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OfflineYellow Pants


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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26685689 - 05/21/20 03:17 PM (8 days, 10 hours ago)

Spiritual activity as in any passionate habit done, I would say “fairly pleasing”.  As pleasing as any spiritual activity would be.


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OfflineConnectionS
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26685776 - 05/21/20 04:07 PM (8 days, 9 hours ago)

Not self pleasing. Spirituality for me is doing the hard work. So I can spread it to all.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Connection]
    #26689420 - 05/23/20 01:53 AM (6 days, 23 hours ago)

Both self pleasing during the good times.. and hard work.. boredom durimg the bad


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26689684 - 05/23/20 07:22 AM (6 days, 18 hours ago)

it was very pleasing because it kept me alive and doing better


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26691515 - 05/24/20 02:39 AM (5 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
We divide human drives into three groups: (1) those drives that can be satisfied with minimal effort; (2) those that can be satisfied but only at the cost of serious effort; (3) those that cannot be adequately satisfied no matter how much effort one makes. The power process is the process of satisfying the drives of the second group. The more drives there are in the third group, the more there is frustration, anger, eventually defeatism, depression, etc. link

I put serious effort into gardening, but it is a surrogate activity



Altho the majority of New ager's would place their spiritual pursuits in the second group, I think mine may be in both the first and third.




I think the New Age advocates that I've seen, at least in videos and some books are not spiritual at all but are practicing "spiritual materialism" just as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche described in his 1973 book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. I see sexual hedonists cloaking their lustful pursuits as Tantric Yoga and claiming mastery (AS IF they can affect a Kundalini experience in others). I see exhibitionistic individuals performing Yoga Asanas competitively or in the service of a 'body beautiful' narcissism, or simply for profit. I see "Chakra Clearing" signs in neon in the window of some psychic advisor not far from my home. I used to see Tarot card readers, en masse, at some malls. I am reminded of Frank Zappa's prescient song Cosmik Debris. I do not see real effort at all.



What I rarely see are individuals who actually withdraw from ordinary (profane) pursuits of survival, sex, and social status to spend time in a religious retreat, a seminary, a Zendo or as a graduate student pursuing a Masters or Doctorate in a legitimate academic discipline. This requires years of dedicated time, often poverty, the humility that comes from answering to thesis or dissertation committees, suffering rejection of hard work, and the character to see the endeavor through. So here I am citing the 1st and 2nd groups. The 3rd group is not a legitimate category because spiritual endeavors are more an existential choice than some innate drive. This is why Victor Frankl who created Logotherapy had an issue with Jung's work which he felt was based on a drive towards transcendence. In any event, the desire to be Enlightened is a contradiction since Enlightenment really means a minimization of desire. Even desiring Liberation which requires the self-effort that we do not possess or the grace of God are both out of our hands and that fact needs to be accepted or else we're just...:banghead:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OnlineThe Blind AssS
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26692282 - 05/24/20 12:03 PM (5 days, 13 hours ago)

Cosmik Debris

:poast:


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See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom.     

Drink up the whole universe...

- Shodo Harada Roshi


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OfflineForrester
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26692428 - 05/24/20 01:07 PM (5 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
In any event, the desire to be Enlightened is a contradiction since Enlightenment really means a minimization of desire. Even desiring Liberation which requires the self-effort that we do not possess or the grace of God are both out of our hands and that fact needs to be accepted or else we're just...:banghead:




I think this can be circumvented by accepting that you already have everything required for the enlightened state, and just work on getting rid of the rest.  False beliefs, negative emotions, the ego, unnecessary thoughts.  Let it all go and what is left?  Seems like this can be done without desire, no?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: Forrester]
    #26693420 - 05/24/20 08:52 PM (5 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
In any event, the desire to be Enlightened is a contradiction since Enlightenment really means a minimization of desire. Even desiring Liberation which requires the self-effort that we do not possess or the grace of God are both out of our hands and that fact needs to be accepted or else we're just...:banghead:




I think this can be circumvented by accepting that you already have everything required for the enlightened state, and just work on getting rid of the rest.  False beliefs, negative emotions, the ego, unnecessary thoughts.  Let it all go and what is left?  Seems like this can be done without desire, no?




I cannot say with conviction that I am a Buddhist. I talk with God, Who, while not imagined as another being like myself is nonetheless not the Clear Light of the Void either. :lol: That said however, the Eightfold Path of The Buddha has had an influence on my life which is contemplative to a large extent as opposed to being both action-oriented on the one hand or indolent on the other. I practice mindfulness in different ways but I do not do sitting meditation much these days. It seems to avail me of very little in terms of permanent changes to my being. Frankly, I have to keep my eyes open or I simply elicit Alpha wave states and sleepiness. I can just as well watch my thoughts when sitting outside at night with my feet up, drinking wine and silently watching for rodents with my cats.  Whereas I did some sports activities in my youth (Judo, Jujitsu, water skiing, skate boarding, scuba diving), I had no desire to learn to surf in Hawaii, for example, even though I admire surfers. I have no bucket-list as they say these days, never have. But my intention is to preserve this "carbon-unit" for as long as possible.

I do not have the Right Views from a strictly Buddhist perspective, but my intentions towards ahimsa have me at loggerheads with my wife who decided to eat meat again and spent a lot at Whole Foods. This means that I have anger as well because I try do move away from all animal food (I feel badly that I need some fish these days), but who needs a $35 cut of a tortured dead steer? I don't know if the Buddha got angry or for how long but it seems that Iesous could if one is to take the story literally (which I do not). What does Enlightenment/Illumination all boil down to? I do not know at this point. The ataraxia or apatheia of the philosophers may protect them from their own emotions but being more detached than compassionate does not seem to be Enlightenment. More and more I agree with Socrates in that "I know that I know nothing." :shrug:

eight·fold path
noun BUDDHISM
noun: eightfold path
the path to nirvana, comprising eight aspects in which an aspirant must become practiced: right views, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26693545 - 05/24/20 09:40 PM (5 days, 4 hours ago)

I think enlightenment is the correct connection (or attachment) to reality..


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26693616 - 05/24/20 10:08 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I think enlightenment is the correct connection (or attachment) to reality..




Or is Enlightenment the correct disconnection (or detachment) from existence? And what then is the nature of an Enlightened person most characterized by psychologically, morally, socially?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OnlineThe Blind AssS
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26693644 - 05/24/20 10:19 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

Awakening is a more appropriate/closer translation of the word than enlightenment imho.

Bodhi. 


--------------------
See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom.     

Drink up the whole universe...

- Shodo Harada Roshi


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26693660 - 05/24/20 10:25 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

I think these two are most important..

Open mindedness.

Devotion..


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26693744 - 05/24/20 10:58 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Awakening is a more appropriate/closer translation of the word than enlightenment imho.

Bodhi. 




I rather agree with you. Unfortunately, Millennials and older folk who try to sound hip are using the word 'woke,' usually in an Ebonics context and intentionally incorrect tense-wise. :nono: I suppose George Gurdjieff is a modern proponent of the idiom of awakening since he goes on about the semi-conscious, automaton nature of the multitudes existing in a state of "hypnotic sleep." Of course, Gurdjieff was not a particularly moral man with his reputation of seducing his disciples and leaving babies around America, so he isn't exactly Buddha-like if we agree that Buddha was not a cult leader.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OnlineThe Blind AssS
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26693840 - 05/24/20 11:55 PM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

That depends on if we agree or disagree on what a cult is & is not.  Despite whatever the answer may be, I haven’t found credible (or much of any really) evidence or good reason to believe that Gotama was predatory or running one big grift, and more importantly, the fruit of the path speaks for itself - it’s has less to do with that individual, and more to do with an immanently transcendent truth & way - or - path to live by and for the greater good of self & other.

If the man was good and true, more power to him and us.  If not, then oh well - because his legend has transformed in a way so as to surpass him - and serve a similar purpose to if he was indeed truly good and learned as to the nature of phenomena & a way to liberation in this very life.


Anyway, fun thought here:

If Mohammed, Christ, or Buddha  magically appeared simultaneously in our world today - and staid true to how they lived in their own time ( as promulgated by historical writings, canonical texts, as well as their respective religious institutions ).... how do you think the our world would perceive them?

Especially if, in this thought experiment example - they are without “magic” powers & abilities.  Not even necessarily knowing who they were I the past themselves!  Or having the same name....But Nevertheless compelled to carry on as if they did- as if by some genetic drive & instinct they acted and were as they were back then, but in today’s world - here & now.
(for arguments sake)

Hmmm?  What would you think ?  What would they think of it?

CNN, Fox, MSNBC, the US government, various demographic populaces of the citizens, and the Vatican & Pope and all that Jazz ....


--------------------
See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom.     

Drink up the whole universe...

- Shodo Harada Roshi


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26693847 - 05/25/20 12:02 AM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I think enlightenment is the correct connection (or attachment) to reality..




Or is Enlightenment the correct disconnection (or detachment) from existence? And what then is the nature of an Enlightened person most characterized by psychologically, morally, socially?



Socially, One whom can balance on the fence the best.
Personally, knowing you're on a fence.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: pineninja]
    #26693854 - 05/25/20 12:06 AM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

I would say equanimity over detachment & indifference.

Which is more like being both sides around the fence, the fence , and space itself which simultaneously envelopes all 3 of them, and in which they have their form.

Easier said than done, but at the same time, paradoxically  - done more easily than saying it.  A sort of hyper quantum super position (made that up :tongue:)-

A bit like a clear mirror of reality itself.


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See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom.     

Drink up the whole universe...

- Shodo Harada Roshi


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/25/20 12:41 AM)


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26693862 - 05/25/20 12:10 AM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

Reminds me of the story of the bloke who sold his soul to the devil with the contract being owed the moment he was buried inside or outside the church.

He was buried in the wall.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: To what extent are your Spiritual activities self-pleasing? [Re: pineninja]
    #26693898 - 05/25/20 12:29 AM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

Using the force in light or darkness

(eternity)

(Jupiter)

CAN be pleasing if you surrender yourself to the force.. partial and per se..


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