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 Forrester
aspiring sociopath
 
Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,352
Loc: Northeast USA 
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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 Re: Such thing as a bad person?  [Re: laughingdog]
#26687561 - 05/22/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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^^^ Wouldn't all that be answered a lot more simply and without all the judgement if we just accepted that life on earth is difficult for all of us, people go through some really messed up stuff that affects their ability to function and in turn do messed up things to other people (cycle of abuse/wheel of karma), but at the core we are all good people?
I don't know, it just seems simple to me. Forgiveness is key.
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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: Forrester]
#26687607 - 05/22/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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"If some men attempt to survive by means of brute force or fraud, by looting, robbing, cheating or enslaving the men who produce, it still remains true that their survival is made possible only by their victims, only by the men who choose to think and to produce the goods which they, the looters, are seizing. Such looters are parasites incapable of survival, who exist by destroying those who are capable, those who are pursuing a course of action proper to man."—Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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 laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
Forrester said:Wouldn't all that be answered a lot more simply and without all the judgement if we just accepted that life on earth is difficult for all of us, people go through some really messed up stuff that affects their ability to function and in turn do messed up things to other people (cycle of abuse/wheel of karma), but at the core we are all good people?
IMO yes, understanding that no one escapes suffering or death, that the clock never stops ticking, that at any moment anyone can die, is the beginning of waking up. And it has nothing to do with so called morality. Being good is not a 'get out of jail free' card.
As regards "Forgiveness is key." of course on the one hand Forgiveness makes our own lives more peacefull, but on the other hand it also is not a 'get out of suffering free' card or a ticket to deep understanding by itself. IMO
Quote:
Cory Duchesne said:
"If some men attempt to survive by means of brute force or fraud, by looting, robbing, cheating or enslaving the men who produce, it still remains true that their survival is made possible only by their victims, only by the men who choose to think and to produce the goods which they, the looters, are seizing. Such looters are parasites incapable of survival, who exist by destroying those who are capable, those who are pursuing a course of action proper to man."—Ayn Rand, The Virtue of Selfishness
IMO Ayn Rand was a very judgmental person that held out a booby prize (as seen in this quote) to those, who although hard working, secretly resented that they had to work hard, while others goofed off or misbehaved in other ways.
Nietzsche whom you like to also quote, had a keen nose for sniffing out resentment. I think he would have laughed at Ayn Rand.
The booby prize she holds out, is that, she tells those folks she idolizes, that they have a right to feel superior to others.
She thinks, all the "virtues" go together like "hard working, creative, smart, & happy". But she is wrong. Happy people don't need the booby prize of feeling superior to those, they secretly resent. Happiness is free of the curse of resentment.
She was clever but very misguided and not a deep thinker, but like Trump had & maybe still has thousands of admirers.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: laughingdog]
#26687924 - 05/22/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
IMO Ayn Rand was a very judgmental person that held out a booby prize (as seen in this quote) to those, who although hard working, secretly resented that they had to work hard, while others goofed off or misbehaved in other ways.
Nietzsche whom you like to also quote, had a keen nose for sniffing out resentment. I think he would have laughed at Ayn Rand.
The booby prize she holds out, is that, she tells those folks she idolizes, that they have a right to feel superior to others.
She thinks, all the "virtues" go together like "hard working, creative, smart, & happy". But she is wrong. Happy people don't need the booby prize of feeling superior to those, they secretly resent. Happiness is free of the curse of resentment.
She was clever but very misguided and not a deep thinker, but like Trump had & maybe still has thousands of admirers.
Okay, so does that mean being judgmental and resentful is bad? Can we know such character traits are bad habits or bad traits? We've still got this split between good and bad. One of my rules of thumb is to judge the behavior and not the whole person. I've been overwhelmed by hypocritical behavior to the point where I felt so disgusted I couldn't even stand to be in the presence of so and so.
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,633
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Short answer is Yes.
Long answer is Mu.
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
Cory Duchesne said:
Okay, so does that mean being judgmental and resentful is bad? Can we know such character traits are bad habits or bad traits? We've still got this split between good and bad. One of my rules of thumb is to judge the behavior and not the whole person. I've been overwhelmed by hypocritical behavior to the point where I felt so disgusted I couldn't even stand to be in the presence of so and so.
My conclusion is different. It is that it is useful to realize her thinking is erroneous and thus avoid the follies of her followers.
"Okay, so does that mean being judgmental and resentful is bad?"
No, it just means its a waste of energy, and won't solve the root cause of one's unhappiness.
Zebras don't spend time resenting Lions, and we don't resent a fast truck coming around the corner, and don't waste time and energy doing so, or wondering why the driver went thru the changing traffic light, we get the heck out of the way -- or get a "Darwin Award".
No need for thinking about good & bad. It is a "red herring". There are many 'mental traps' humans are prone to. Religions get good milage out of another one called: 'guilt'.
" I've been overwhelmed by hypocritical behavior to the point where I felt so disgusted I couldn't even stand to be in the presence of so and so."
Zebras may not judge lions, but that doesn't mean they have to hang out with them.
I didn't grow up in the streets - but the metaphor applies to life generally - without some "street smarts", intuition, and self trust, all the good intentions, all the philosophy, all the good advice and ideas about morality or god are pretty useless.
And the same goes for having enough energy, a will to live and some general intelligence and in many situations some friends and resources.
Concepts & principles by themselves seem useless.
Flexibility is something animals like cats make a point of maintaining by stretching regularly, and they seem to feel good as a result.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: laughingdog]
#26688271 - 05/22/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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^ What you said there reminds me of both UG Krishanmruti and Jiddu. No thinking, no thought. I think speech and writing give a misleading impression. When I'm full of disgust, anger and resentment, which is more often than I'd like, I find the only release is through the perceptions: painting, music, looking at trees and the sky, and then there's the imagination. But listening to people talk or write.... it pulls me into that disgust. Even Carl Jung thought that one could not think without also having some measure of disgust.
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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reminds me of a line from one of Jim Morrison's (of The Doors, rock group) songs:
"I can't seem to find the right lie"
As you say Painting, Nature, music are often preferable.
also of possible interest:
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-sound-of-silence/
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 days, 53 minutes
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Quote:
Cory Duchesne said:
I've been overwhelmed by hypocritical behavior to the point where I felt so disgusted I couldn't even stand to be in the presence of so and so.
I find such experiences and strong emotional reactions very interesting. Especially considering the fact we've all engaged in hypocritical behavior. Ultimately, I suspect our disgust and hatred of others is a reflection of how we see ourselves, and maybe related to what we fear.
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#26692209 - 05/24/20 09:34 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Cory Duchesne said:
I've been overwhelmed by hypocritical behavior to the point where I felt so disgusted I couldn't even stand to be in the presence of so and so.
I find such experiences and strong emotional reactions very interesting. Especially considering the fact we've all engaged in hypocritical behavior. Ultimately, I suspect our disgust and hatred of others is a reflection of how we see ourselves, and maybe related to what we fear.
Egotism is neither infectious nor contagious. In fact, those most exposed to it are least likely to acquire it. It is not necessary to isolate the egotist - he accomplishes this for himself. Egotism is not so painful to those who have it as to those who must endure it. Like the leprosy that numbs the nerves before it attacks the adjacent tissues, inordinate self-esteem first befuddles the judgment and then rots out the whole fabric of the mind. Egotism is a curious kind of ailment that afflicts shallow minds. It is most likely to trouble those who least suspect its presence, and advanced cases are usually incurable. ~ Manly P. Hall (Horizon September 1941 p. 20, 21)
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/24/20 09:35 AM)
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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I could be wrong, but I think people are amoral. So, John Doe is neither a good person nor a bad person, but an individual of great potential and intrinsic value who is accountable for moral and immoral choices.
But then,... there are a some people who have the inability to empathize and seem to get their sense of security and significance in life by causing suffering in others... a lot. I think those people need mushrooms.
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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
Edited by Moses_Davidson (05/24/20 10:51 AM)
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath
Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,352
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
an individual of great potential and intrinsic value who is accountable for moral and immoral choices.
Accountable to whom?
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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: Forrester]
#26692464 - 05/24/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
an individual of great potential and intrinsic value who is accountable for moral and immoral choices.
Accountable to whom?
Forum moderators.
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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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I would add... that despite my faith, I was not thinking of eternal accountability when I wrote that, but more of just the general sense of accountability for our actions, everything from natural consequences of poor choices to international extradition for war crimes.
The example I was thinking of was the guy here who got kicked out of the forums for trolling, and blocked by someone he evidently wanted to talk to.
I've probably made more than my fair share of stupid choices over the years. We have all made bad choices, and have all experienced consequences.
However, the definition of "Bad" and "morality" is a whole 'nother discussion.
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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Is it just me, or is the word "accountability" one of the most bullshit, meaningless words there are?
The moment you are covetous, you create the thief. If there is nothing to covet, then there can be no thief. Those who bite off more than they can chew, who hoard more things than they can use, such person's whip out the calculator and start tallying up other people time, trying to covet and exploit other people's efforts. Ego has it's eye on other people, targeting the next sucker to exploit. The one making accusations, whether fraud or whatever it is, that's the biggest fraud of all.
"Mr. Money bags, figuring up his income tax, is at heart a dressed up hyena gnawing at the shinbone of his last victim and trying to find a way to eat the entire carcass and remain alive. He still growls when you try to take this bone away from him; but now that he is civilized he hires three lawyers to do the yapping." ~ Manly P. Hall (All Seeing Eye 02/23/1927)
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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I feel that way of the words "tort liability"
Also "exercise"
Also I don't like, "Not tonight I have a headache." Ugh! What is it with these horrible words. We should just get rid of them
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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill
"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
I feel that way of the words "tort liability"
Also "exercise"
Also I don't like, "Not tonight I have a headache." Ugh! What is it with these horrible words. We should just get rid of them
Not wanting something is a way of ridding oneself of it. Goodness is to have few desires, a poverty of desire, minimal needs. Badness is to be rich with desire. Evil harbors maximum wants. Perhaps society punishes those who do not want or expect much from life? Who is doing the punishing? It appears to be the persons who wants and expects the most out of life. How much is so and so trying to extract, and from who? The more you want and expect out of life, the more you will try to punish. Evil/badness appears to be the consequence of immodest desire, and with immodest desire, there will invariably be the urge to blame/punish, and this is especially true when there is a system that rewards people for blaming/punishing/finding fault in others. I don't want anything to do with anybody whose desires and expectations are immodest / grandiose. Plato got it right when he said "The greatest wealth is to live content with little." It's a poor soul who is solicitous, and the more one asks or demands, the more wretched one is for it.
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
Yando said:
Do you guys think that there is such a thing as a bad person? There are people who do horrible things, but are these people just "bad?" It seems like we're just searching for a simple explanation so we just go "they're evil."
Or when we refer to dictators and violent criminals as "monsters," it makes me uncomfortable. Like yeah they've done incredibly bad deeds, but we're still taking a person and dehumanizing them, which has never led to anything good.
I think that calling someone evil is just a way to avoid understanding and stick to judgement. Maybe we're afraid to understand people we see as evil, but they're still human beings.
Maybe we should think more about how to help these people rather than try to throw them away.
Thoughts?
A related article:
..."New research conducted by a team from Germany and Denmark suggests that a General Dark Factor of Personality (D-factor) exists among the human population, and that this factor conforms to the principle of indifference of the indicator. This is big news, so let's take a look. "...
rest of article here:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-dark-core-of-personality?utm_source=pocket-newtab
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Cory Duchesne
tabernacle
Registered: 10/05/16
Posts: 1,102
Loc: Nova Scotia
Last seen: 47 minutes, 10 seconds
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Re: Such thing as a bad person? [Re: laughingdog]
#26694150 - 05/25/20 03:58 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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"The Americans expecially have that terrible black shadow behind them. It's as if they made a pure-culture (Reinkultur) of all their good qualities, which they bring out into the open, and so you think the person is a hundred percent pure gold." - Carl Jung, My Mother and I. Pg. 245
These are the nine traits that comprised "the researchers" D-factor:
- Egoism. The excessive concern with one's own pleasure or advantage at the expense of community well-being.
- Machiavellianism. Manipulativeness, callous affect and strategic-calculating orientation.
- Moral Disengagement. A generalized cognitive orientation to the world that differentiates individuals' thinking in a way that powerfully affects unethical behavior.
- Narcissism. An all-consuming motive for ego reinforcement.
- Psychological Entitlement. A stable and pervasive sense that one deserves more and is entitled to more than others.
- Psychopathy. Deficits in affect, callousness, self-control and impulsivity.
- Sadism. Intentionally inflicting physical, sexual or psychological pain or suffering on others in order to assert power and dominance or for pleasure and enjoyment.
- Self-Interest. The pursuit of gains in socially valued domains, including material goods, social status, recognition, academic or occupational achievement and happiness.
- Spitefulness. A preference that would harm another but that would also entail harm to oneself. This harm could be social, financial, physical or an inconvenience.
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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."
"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung
Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti
"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
Edited by Cory Duchesne (05/25/20 04:00 AM)
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