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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Too many burst grains cause bacteria?
    #26687677 - 05/22/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I’m just gonna preface by saying I have not been following the tek to a T, I’ve been cutting corners with my oat prep cause I’m a lazy bitch. All these jars turned bacterial after noccing up with clean looking agar wedges. I loosely followed bods oat prep but instead of dumping the grains into the already boiling water I just let the grains come to a boil in the water. This led to me boiling too long and having a buttload of burst hulls. I dried them on a screen till they passed the tp test and then a little more after that. I’ve heard how bacteria can basically reassemble themselves given proper growing conditions even after sterilization. Could the slimy grain guts be providing an ideal environment for the bacteria to reassemble or are my agar skills just lacking?


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26687687 - 05/22/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
I’m a lazy bitch




Well there's your problem :themoreyouknow:


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26687700 - 05/22/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck lol so you think the burst hulls could be my problem?


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus] * 1
    #26687710 - 05/22/20 09:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What? No, I literally just told you your laziness is your problem :lol:


As for the grain, bacteria causes bacteria but your burst grains are better suited for
bacteria growth when present. How did you sterilize them? And for the record oats are
one of the harder grains for noob prep without having over moisture issues.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26687720 - 05/22/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry I woke up at 2 this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep lol kinda out of it. I sterilized em for 2 hours 15 minutes. I know the hulls didn’t feel wet at all on the surface but the insides stick to the jar sides so I know they’re pretty wet lol.


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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26687820 - 05/22/20 10:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I was just fuckin with ya, haha.

Oats hold moisture between the hull and grain, and other shit that usually
leads to newer growers over hydrating.

In bods tek his grain is overhydrated in my opinion. Lots of noobs have come
around saying their oats failed, and although I think oats are an inferior grain,
I think most of their issues are jars being too wet. This is a pic from his tek


That jar has too many burst grains and moisture against the glass, in my opinion. This is not
a jab at bod, but more of an observation that he is skilled enough to make it
work but I think most noobs are gonna have some issues with a jar like that.


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InvisibleHtaeh
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26687915 - 05/22/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
I think oats are an inferior grain,



Care to share your opinion on why you feel this way? Just interested to know is all, I'm new to bulk but very happy with oats so far and have found them very forgiving.



Hey OP, this is how I prep my oats and being 'lazy' you may just like this lol; I put a large saucepan of boiled water (out of the kettle) onto the hob on high heat so it quickly works up to a hard boil with the saucepan lid on. Once at a hard boil I put my weighed oats in, wait a minute or so for the water to hit a hard boil again and set a timer for 15 minutes. Once the 15 minutes is over I pour out the oats into a steamer pan (for cooking veg etc, my colander loses too many oats) and then put the cold tap on and thoroughly cool them down, shake em about to drain as much water as I can and then spread them out on a tea towel and place a second tea towel on top. Press on them a little and leave for 45 minutes or so, then load them up into the PC. I think they come out just below 70% but they work just fine as spawn for me and I have had no issues to date.


--------------------
"To write is to wage war" ~ Voltaire
"The Drug Medical System cannot bear examination. To explain it would be to destroy it.." ~ R.T. Trall M.D.
"A single lie destroys a whole reputation for integrity." ~ Baltasar Gracian (1601-1658), Spanish philosopher 
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the US public believes is false."  ~  William J. Casey, 1981
"Fear always works to influence the population, when the population is uneducated."
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant." ~  Maximilien Robespierre
"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave."  ~  Frederick Douglass


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26687932 - 05/22/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

My oats looks way drier than that but there’re way more burst grains in them. I guess I’ll try following the tek and hopefully won’t fuck it up next time lol. Yeah I remember reading that thing about the bacteria being able to reassemble themselves after sterilization if conditions were met, I immediately went to shake my grains and got pissed that the myc wouldn’t break up lol. Looked super healthy on the surface but blotchy and creamy once the surface myc broke off.


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26687940 - 05/22/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I might try that if I can’t get this way to work out, but I already went through the hassle of building a screen table to dry my grains and I can’t let my gf know I wasted all that money on something I’m not gonna use lmao.


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OfflineGan
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26687965 - 05/22/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Why wouldn't you use your screen table? Plenty of people on here use them with great success. They're awesome, especially for oats and large amounts of grain.


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Edited by Gan (05/22/20 11:40 AM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Htaeh]
    #26687990 - 05/22/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Htaeh said:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
I think oats are an inferior grain,



Care to share your opinion on why you feel this way? Just interested to know is all, I'm new to bulk but very happy with oats so far and have found them very forgiving.





I've explained it a few times in the past but the gist of it is that grains with
an intact hull hull inherently have a higher bacteria/endo spore count, and the
hull/husk acts as a moisture retention barrier that makes it appear dry on the outside,
but it still has a significant amount of trapped moisture.

Pertinent info in bold plus links:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
You can read the whole article but here is some relevant info
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1750-3841.14181

Quote:

The typical structure of a cereal grain constitutes of three edible parts: the bran which consists of the outer coat (pericarp, testa, and aleurone layers), the germ (the embryo) and the starchy endosperm, and an inedible husk that protects the kernel (Figure 4) (Dexter & Wood, 1996; Merali et al., 2013). Microbial colonization is generally restricted to the outer layers of cereal grains, that is, the husk, between the husk and pericarp, and within the pericarp tissue (Briggs, 1998). Several studies showed that after debranning—a controlled process in which the outer layers of the grains are removed, cereals are microbiologically purer (Bainotti & Perez, 2000; Laca et al., 2006). However, there are species able to invade the inner part of the grains and penetrate into the endosperm, causing internal infections (Nierop, 2006).




This ones just an abstract about wheat but go ahead and check it out anyway
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223382603_Distribution_of_microbial_contamination_within_cereal_grains




You may say "oh but it should be fully sterilized post PC" but that isn't necessarily true.

There is no such thing as fully sterile since sterilization is defined by a limit approaching zero.
We sterilize to something like 99.999% or higher but not 100%.

If you have a single grain with 100,000,000 spores before sterilization and you
sterilize to 99.999% then there are still 1,000 spores per grain post PC.

Now it's not a fact that they will germinate, more likely that they are damaged
and won't, but damaged isn't dead. Why start with a grain that has a higher
spore count and moisture issues when you can play it safe and start with one that doesn't?


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26687994 - 05/22/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Would you be down to post some of your oat results?


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InvisibleHtaeh
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688044 - 05/22/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Htaeh said:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
I think oats are an inferior grain,



Care to share your opinion on why you feel this way? Just interested to know is all, I'm new to bulk but very happy with oats so far and have found them very forgiving.





I've explained it a few times in the past but the gist of it is that grains with
an intact hull hull inherently have a higher bacteria/endo spore count, and the
hull/husk acts as a moisture retention barrier that makes it appear dry on the outside,
but it still has a significant amount of trapped moisture.

Pertinent info in bold plus links:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
You can read the whole article but here is some relevant info
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1750-3841.14181

Quote:

The typical structure of a cereal grain constitutes of three edible parts: the bran which consists of the outer coat (pericarp, testa, and aleurone layers), the germ (the embryo) and the starchy endosperm, and an inedible husk that protects the kernel (Figure 4) (Dexter & Wood, 1996; Merali et al., 2013). Microbial colonization is generally restricted to the outer layers of cereal grains, that is, the husk, between the husk and pericarp, and within the pericarp tissue (Briggs, 1998). Several studies showed that after debranning—a controlled process in which the outer layers of the grains are removed, cereals are microbiologically purer (Bainotti & Perez, 2000; Laca et al., 2006). However, there are species able to invade the inner part of the grains and penetrate into the endosperm, causing internal infections (Nierop, 2006).




This ones just an abstract about wheat but go ahead and check it out anyway
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223382603_Distribution_of_microbial_contamination_within_cereal_grains




You may say "oh but it should be fully sterilized post PC" but that isn't necessarily true.

There is no such thing as fully sterile since sterilization is defined by a limit approaching zero.
We sterilize to something like 99.999% or higher but not 100%.

If you have a single grain with 100,000,000 spores before sterilization and you
sterilize to 99.999% then there are still 1,000 spores per grain post PC.

Now it's not a fact that they will germinate, more likely that they are damaged
and won't, but damaged isn't dead. Why start with a grain that has a higher
spore count and moisture issues when you can play it safe and start with one that doesn't?





Awesome man, thanks. So what is it you recommend most?

As previously stated, I'm new to grain/bulk and have my first shoebox pinning right now and I also have three grain jars going at the moment. The grains that were spawned to the shoebox had been prepped with a 25 minute boil, although successful they were very wet against the jar. I also had two other jars that were prepped with a 20 minute boil, imo still seemed too wet, both contaminated but I believe due to a sloppy inoculation.

Regarding the three I have colonising at the moment, the first is almost done; the second not too far behind the first and the last still has a long way to go as it was nocc'd just last week. All three were prepped via a 15 minute boil. Everything I prepare gets pc'd for 2h 30m of course.

So if your request for results was aimed towards me I'll happily provide some photos, be it the shoebox or the three jars (pp5 1L tubs) but admittedly there isn't a great deal to look at lol, aside from the pins of course haha.


--------------------
"To write is to wage war" ~ Voltaire
"The Drug Medical System cannot bear examination. To explain it would be to destroy it.." ~ R.T. Trall M.D.
"A single lie destroys a whole reputation for integrity." ~ Baltasar Gracian (1601-1658), Spanish philosopher 
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the US public believes is false."  ~  William J. Casey, 1981
"Fear always works to influence the population, when the population is uneducated."
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant." ~  Maximilien Robespierre
"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave."  ~  Frederick Douglass


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Htaeh]
    #26688080 - 05/22/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I ask because even though they work, I rarely see new growers post oats that look healthy.

If you've only made 5 jars, with 2 that contammed, and 2 shoeboxes you hardly have a sample
size large enough to witness the faults with oats that make it a waste of time in the long run.
Lots of really good growers swear by oats but the majority of the posts concerning oats
that I see are that they didn't work out well.

I used oats for maybe 5 or so 50lb bags before I finally got fed up with its shit
and went back to wbs. Now I use wheat


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OfflineGan
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688114 - 05/22/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This is completely anecdotal, but when I first started I had all kinds of issues with oats. Switched to wbs and my contam rates noticeably dropped. This could be due to generating better sterile techniques and other habits (and it probably was to some extent), but I also believe that oats can sometimes be a pain in the ass and I really don't know why. I like wbs much more now. Could very well just be in my head though.


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InvisibleHtaeh
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688118 - 05/22/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
I ask because even though they work, I rarely see new growers post oats that look healthy.




In respect to OPs thread I'll refrain from further deviation of their request for help and instead pm you the colonising tubs for your opinion.



Quote:

natedawgnow said:
If you've only made 5 jars, with 2 that contammed, and 2 shoeboxes you hardly have a sample
size large enough to witness the faults with oats that make it a waste of time in the long run.
Lots of really good growers swear by oats but the majority of the posts concerning oats
that I see are that they didn't work out well.

I used oats for maybe 5 or so 50lb bags before I finally got fed up with its shit
and went back to wbs. Now I use wheat



What you have said is indisputable, before your post above I had never read anything with any coherence regarding oats' potential disadvantages. That said, the disadvantages of potential germination after sterilisation is unavoidable for the amateur cultivator, without avoiding the grain completely. Though even with my little success I can't help but feel they are forgiving in regards to their preparation as a grain, within reason of course.


--------------------
"To write is to wage war" ~ Voltaire
"The Drug Medical System cannot bear examination. To explain it would be to destroy it.." ~ R.T. Trall M.D.
"A single lie destroys a whole reputation for integrity." ~ Baltasar Gracian (1601-1658), Spanish philosopher 
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the US public believes is false."  ~  William J. Casey, 1981
"Fear always works to influence the population, when the population is uneducated."
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant." ~  Maximilien Robespierre
"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave."  ~  Frederick Douglass


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Htaeh]
    #26688140 - 05/22/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Wbs is stupid simple just dump boiling water over your grain, let sit for an
hour, strain, load, and pc.

Wheat is a hard boil like with oats but it doesn't have a hull/husk to harbor
excess moisture, which is the main issue I think. It's called whole wheat but wheat is almost always debranned.

Wasn't tryin to call you out or anything sorry if I came off dickish!


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InvisibleHans Wermhat
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688146 - 05/22/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I've gone through a couple 50 lb bags of oats and what's worked best for me is to soak them overnight, then bring them to a very gentle boil and immediately strain. As mentioned they're easily overhydrated and much more prone to bursting than other grains. I know most people don't pre-soak their grains anymore but it feels like it cuts down on the amount of burst grains i see. I've started to like oats more and more and will probably buy another bag when this one runs out but I agree they're far from optimal and I'd highly recommend beginners start with rye berries (the gold standard imo) or WBS.


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InvisibleHtaeh
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688160 - 05/22/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Wbs is stupid simple just dump boiling water over your grain, let sit for an
hour, strain, load, and pc.

Wheat is a hard boil like with oats but it doesn't have a hull/husk to harbor
excess moisture, which is the main issue I think. It's called whole wheat but wheat is almost always debranned.

Wasn't tryin to call you out or anything sorry if I came off dickish!




Well I'm certainly convinced and as soon as I get through this 20kg of oats I'll probably go for wheat but if not wheat then wbs.

And no apology needed mate, I've really appreciated your responses, thank you.


--------------------
"To write is to wage war" ~ Voltaire
"The Drug Medical System cannot bear examination. To explain it would be to destroy it.." ~ R.T. Trall M.D.
"A single lie destroys a whole reputation for integrity." ~ Baltasar Gracian (1601-1658), Spanish philosopher 
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the US public believes is false."  ~  William J. Casey, 1981
"Fear always works to influence the population, when the population is uneducated."
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant." ~  Maximilien Robespierre
"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave."  ~  Frederick Douglass


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26688450 - 05/22/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
My oats looks way drier than that but there’re way more burst grains in them. I guess I’ll try following the tek and hopefully won’t fuck it up next time lol. Yeah I remember reading that thing about the bacteria being able to reassemble themselves after sterilization if conditions were met, I immediately went to shake my grains and got pissed that the myc wouldn’t break up lol. Looked super healthy on the surface but blotchy and creamy once the surface myc broke off.


m


Wait wait wait.....bacteria can reassemble themselves???

Where did you see this I’ve never heard of it but I’m super interested.

If they can get blasted in the pc then voltron/t1000 themselves back together that would explain some things for me.


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LAGM2020


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #26688491 - 05/22/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yeetusdeetus said:
Fuck lol so you think the burst hulls could be my problem?




If your grains busted, then u over-cooked your grains either before PCing or from PCing themselves. Overcooked typically means overhydrated. So yes, burst grains can cause bacteria. Gotta start over.


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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26688507 - 05/22/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Burst grains don't cause bacteria, bacteria spores cause bacteria. Burst grains are
just a more favorable environment for bacteria when present


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26688526 - 05/22/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

My bad, burst grains can cause bacteria to grow easier but doesnt cause bacteria. Hows that?


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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26688571 - 05/22/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
What's die really mean for a single celled bacteria when you can get it wet and it puts itself back together. Some of these signals that bacteria make during biofilm formation tell a subset of the film to protect their DNA and even further tell some bacteria to start forming extra tough endospores with more dipicolinic acid. As well some are forming with moderate levels and low levels. So that there's endospores that are super protected from DNA damage and some that are more ready to spring into action. Many people seem to think endospores only form in dire conditions. That just pushes the amount formed to a higher %. Bacteria is always maximize its survival chances. Some subset of the population of a film is making spores at a slow rate during optimal conditions and during dire conditions that proportion grows larger. This is why tyndalization doesn't really work and there's other reasons too like Never being able to germination every spore during the in between sterilization phases anyway.

I like to think of a biofilm in or on a grain as a fortified castle with a modern bank vault inside and inside the vault are people wearing the same gear that the people who work with molten steal do and if they die so long as not all their DNA is burnt to a crisp they can rebuild and come back to life.

So yea much different than sterilizing liquid




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InvisibleHans Wermhat
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Re: Too many burst grains cause bacteria? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26688695 - 05/22/20 05:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
My bad, burst grains can cause bacteria to grow easier but doesnt cause bacteria. Hows that?



Because no matter how careful you are or how many precaution one takes, things are never 100% clean. Take the filter for example in our jar lid. They're rated something like 99.997% efficient at 0.2 micron or something like that? That means that even though they're really good, a tiny tiny amount of bacteria or spore will still pass through, especially on the cooldown when the pressure inside the jar decreases and outside air gets sucked in through the filter to equalize the pressure. Cultures are never 100% perfectly clean, pressure cooker never 100% effective, etc. But that's okay, because 99.9999999% sterility is good enough to allow a healthy culture to fully colonize the grain. Having starchy burst grains can slow mycelium down a little and is a good breeding ground for bacteria, so it tips the scales a little more toward contamination and will exacerbate/exploit any weak point in your sterile technique.


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Thank you for taking the time to read this message. Have a wonderful day.


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