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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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visionary vs. mundane experience 2
#26686267 - 05/21/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Psychedelic and visionary experience can be infinitely valuable as they offer us a glimpse behind the curtain separating sensory, three-dimensional reality and higher-dimensional reality. The objective vistas and real truths afforded by these experiences are totally invaluable to a mind that is receptive to their language. However, the aforementioned sensory reality should not, as it so often is by psychonauts, be relegated to an inferior position out of hand.
After all, we spend our entire childhood and much of our lives developing an awareness of and attunement to a world that would be ineffable and meaningless without them. In a very deep sense, the usual here and now, as we perceive it without the use of psychedelic or mystical experience, is where we live and must not be trivialized. More than that, it is in a sense very real.
Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?
I don't mean to suggest a trivialization of altered states. Merely that Mother Nature seems to lean toward keeping us grounded. Or is this an illusion?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Our natural state is like the Goldilocks zone. A launch pad for every other state, which after traversing for a while, we naturally return home to because it’s our equilibrium. The natural or “mundane” state is just as mystical as any altered state, and without it nothing would make sense. We’d have nothing to compare it too. Between our mundane state, and dream state while asleep - pretty much anything that can be deduced from an exogenous psychoactive induced state can be had.
I see too often that one “perceived the truth” in an altered state, or that they “know reality as is - or that one knows the nature of mind clearly”- and that somehow when one comes back down to mundane reality is not “it” also.
I think language, and by extension- the inherent dualizing mental faculty that is intellect, is in no small part responsible. But also that one can be aware of that function and still cherish the nonduality of true and false, and know all perceived moments of the one timeless moment directly and tacitly & simultaneously and at once immanently transcendent. It’s like there is a primordial stream of conscious awareness - and even mystical experiences and altered states are transient in the flow of it. States can be influx, but that stream doesn’t seem to unstream while alive, so far as I know.
I also see people (I’ve been there and done it myself ) mention that one had an enlightenment experience in the past while in an altered state, or even while in their “mundane” state - but that in the here and now it is lost, and that it needs to be “gotten back to” again. As if it’s lost and something to be gotten over and over again through an altered state only.
That seems delusive, or put another way - stopping short of the whole truth.
I take serious issue with that notion, mostly because it’s like pretending to forget the essential truth of things, in favor of the delusive dream of an ignorant sleep.
There is no other reality from this one - it’s the same reality, regardless of the state.
* sorry for the shitty writing, I kind of just spit that one out,
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/21/20 07:59 PM)
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Neither of them exist without the other.
You must embrace them both.
If you get caught in either you aren't getting "it".
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26686424 - 05/21/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree with both of you. The subject reminds me of Bohm's implicate-explicate order hypothesis. Very briefly, the explicate order represents what is evident to our senses -- our macroscopic, consensus reality. The reality that Newton's laws describe. The implicate order is the higher-dimensional tapestry which underlies it -- out of which it manifests. Then the explicate order re-enfolds, to further inform the implicate order so that it can unfold into a slightly more novel explicate order in the next instant.
So, the explicate order is really a very particular and special manifestation of the overarching implicate order. So, in essence, there is no fundamental difference between the two. And the implicate order would be rather amorphous without an explicate order full of planets and animals, just as the explicate order cannot exist without the implicate order because it is a special form of the implicate order itself.
There is a world of information pertaining to all this, but I think it suffices that this model gives an intriguing unification of the two realms, and couches them in a coherent and constructive way. Either way, I think you two have hit the mark already.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Psychedelic and visionary experience can be infinitely valuable as they offer us a glimpse behind the curtain separating sensory, three-dimensional reality and higher-dimensional reality. The objective vistas and real truths afforded by these experiences are totally invaluable to a mind that is receptive to their language. However, the aforementioned sensory reality should not, as it so often is by psychonauts, be relegated to an inferior position out of hand.
After all, we spend our entire childhood and much of our lives developing an awareness of and attunement to a world that would be ineffable and meaningless without them. In a very deep sense, the usual here and now, as we perceive it without the use of psychedelic or mystical experience, is where we live and must not be trivialized. More than that, it is in a sense very real.
Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?
I don't mean to suggest a trivialization of altered states. Merely that Mother Nature seems to lean toward keeping us grounded. Or is this an illusion?
Certaintly not superior, but seems that evolution designed us to solve problems, and thus to have problems. The complexity of state of mind is beyond our general ability to solve so we gnaw away at the little things, lest normal reality seem to mundane. But when things are good is it not due to the reverberations of recent experience, psychedelic or not? We need unordinary experiences, of any kind to keep the spirit moving on. Psychedelics could be considered a way of getting one's drama in.
Drama is meaningful, so hopefully, it's not just blowing off steam. But people take what they can get it seems and it's often not helpful, yet still preferable to mundane reality alone. In the absence of problems, people create them.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: Rahz]
#26686499 - 05/21/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I find dreaming - and the branches of it, ie. Day dreaming, normal asleep dreaming, lucid dreaming, OBE dreaming, and others, etc. all to fulfill that role. All had naturally, and some if not all of the above are basically had universally & daily in our species.
The mundane “state(s)” and visionary states are not incommensurate, they are complementary.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: pineninja]
#26686687 - 05/21/20 09:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hmmm... *thinking on that one*

Well... those are deep waters.
Nobody here is going to say I've ever had any heroic experiences, but I have, over my years on this earth, had a few profound spiritual experiences through prayer. Here is my fallible opinion, after spending perhaps not enough time pondering this: Sometimes we dream things up, a false impression perceived by our the neurons in our brains as a spiritual experience... but sometimes there is an intersection between the physical and spiritual worlds... like the intersection of two planes, both of which are real. I believe people experience both of these produced, and induced experiences.

So, experiences may be produced by our neurons or may be the physical interaction with a spiritual reality, and these can be difficult to discern. Also, a genuine encounter with a spiritual/alternate plane being (like an encounter with a physical being) may or may not include a load of bologna.
So, we use our mundane sense of logic to interpret of our spiritual experiences, preferably with some effort to use discernment. The lens through which we interpret our experiences, our paradigm, will bias our interpretation. I personally prefer to interpret things that are difficult in the light of things that are clear.
It would be difficult for a flat person living in a two-dimensional world to comprehend a three-dimensional person intersecting into their world. A 2d flat person may describe a 3d person's hand as a dot, or five dots, or one oval, depending at what point the hand intersected the 2d plane. Likewise it is difficult for us to comprehend or describe anything in a fourth dimension. The best we could do is describe a cross-section of the 4d thing with our limited 3d brains.
Maybe... (1) the neurally contrived experiences can't exist without our mundane world, but (2) the four-dimensional reality exists without any regard to our mundane world, and (3) our mundane reality would not be able to exist without the spiritual plane, from which it came.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Quote:
DQ said: just as the explicate order cannot exist without the implicate order because it is a special form of the implicate explicate order itself.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#26687734 - 05/22/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: ... our mundane reality would not be able to exist without the spiritual plane, from which it came.
I take exception with "from which it came", which is not clear by any means, since what you call a spiritual plane may be entirely different from what anyone else considers a spiritual plane, and there is no need to connect with any imaginary origin story in order to appreciate the "thatness" or "isness" of any thing.
Origins are interesting when they can be traced, we can learn and share a great deal by following evidence.
you could start by attempting to describe what your spiritual plane is, but if it is defined in terms of belief, which is defined in terms of spirituality, then we have a circular definition which is not an followable trail at all. It is more of a come dance in my circle, and that is ok for yucks, but there could be a more appropriate place for it (like the forum for spirituality and mysticism)
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laughingdog
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26688222 - 05/22/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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DQ said: "Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?"
Would seem biology partly answers the question, if high all the time one would either starve or the wild animals would eat one or in the city get robbed or run over or starve.
Also deep meditative states cannot be maintained indefinitely
So good teachings say the middle way is equanimity and mindfulness and compassion. And accept that balance is the way.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: laughingdog]
#26688304 - 05/22/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The more evolved the more pull upwards into mystical experiences. Maybe a crawfish seeks to get high but I have to assume no. And why do the two states need to be separated. I think it’s like a gradient where you get some mystical experience and then not so much. Mother Nature pulls down but compared to our human world this may seem mystical. I’m not sure. Paganism ?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: laughingdog]
#26688366 - 05/22/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: DQ said: "Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?"
Would seem biology partly answers the question, if high all the time one would either starve or the wild animals would eat one or in the city get robbed or run over or starve.
Also deep meditative states cannot be maintained indefinitely
So good teachings say the middle way is equanimity and mindfulness and compassion. And accept that balance is the way.
I think this is interesting. Altered states include a range of perceptual enhancement (reverberance) from (a) mild and moderate which makes one potentially more receptive state and more widely aware of what is happening, to (b) intensely layered which puts one more into a dream/visionary state.
the dream/visionary state (b) could also connect with 'consensus' type events and a psychonaut may be able to retrieve that insight in a positive way, but usually it is more revelatory of personal psychological inclinations and resistance, the work one does to better understand one's self.
In the meantime, 'normal' and 'consensual' awareness is a loose bag of bobbleheads - so called consensus is generally all over the map.
you talk about meditative states - probably related to jhanas - these are not maintainable - true.
however you can sort of maintain a way, or getting on a path, that keeps awakening, opening up to what is happening, not like concentration meditation but not completely unlike vipassana - this is closer to (a) mild or moderate tripping in tune with 'vibes' or changes or *energy* sensed but not necessarily recognized.
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lostintimenspc
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26688854 - 05/22/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Blind Ass! That is really good.
I definitely recommend The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell for anyone interested in this topic.
We don't really choose our desires.
That's why you blow out the flame, ie. Nirvana, and then the cosmos decides your desires for you, which are then pure and eternal and what you were born for.
Making enlightenment essentially maturity.
No one is doing what they think they are doing, the universe decides that.
-Daniel
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: lostintimenspc]
#26688863 - 05/22/20 06:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I find his writing very accessible and coherent. 1000 faces is a classic in my book, no pun intended. I’ve never picked up one of his books and not been compelled to check it out.
Some libraries give me hardcore butterflies when I see their selection of works & authors. Campbell is always amongst them 
His work just has a way about it that I find deeply enriching, fun, and rings true in a way that connects with me. Deep feels.
Wish I could have talked to him in person over coffee or tea.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/22/20 06:44 PM)
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26690218 - 05/23/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I take exception with "from which it came", which is not clear by any means, since what you call a spiritual plane may be entirely different from what anyone else considers a spiritual plane, and there is no need to connect with any imaginary origin story...
you could start by attempting to describe what your spiritual plane is, but if it is defined in terms of belief, which is defined in terms of spirituality, then we have a circular definition which is not an followable trail at all. It is more of a come dance in my circle, and that is ok for yucks, but there could be a more appropriate place for it (like the forum for spirituality and mysticism)
Here's an image from NASA's WMAP team:

The point labeled "Quantum Fluctuations" existed before time-space & matter, and is not subject to time-space. The Quantum Fluctuations existed in some sort of a different something (plane, spiritual realm, other dimension, or whatever you label you prefer for it), and caused our universe to exist.
So, "from which it came" is not an origin story. This is the general consensus of the scientific community.
What we choose to label it doesn't affect it.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?
I refer to biology again: Sex provides ecstasy -- but not 24 7, in fact a lot less! for very good reasons not 24 7. Same with happiness. Altered sates fall into the same category, as regards the survival of organisms. the workings of biology do not follow human preferences.
It takes a few pages to explain every step of the relevant biology, elegantly, & in detail. the book "The pleasure Trap" does so in detail; It is covered with in the first pages: 7- 24 , although the rest is also useful. the author may be found on utube as well - if anyone is seriously interested. The logic is both straight forward & impeccable.</font>
Edited by laughingdog (05/23/20 01:19 PM)
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26690689 - 05/23/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Origins are interesting when they can be traced, we can learn and share a great deal by following evidence.
you could start by attempting to describe what your spiritual plane is, but if it is defined in terms of belief, which is defined in terms of spirituality, then we have a circular definition which is not an followable trail at all. It is more of a come dance in my circle, and that is ok for yucks, but there could be a more appropriate place for it (like the forum for spirituality and mysticism)
You know, I really agree with this a lot.
A whole lot... in fact, if I may pull up a soap box...
Some quantum physicists like to talk about what did or did not create the universe. This is often presented as if it were scientific, when in fact, it IS great for yucks... but is really is spirituality or mysticism. To present such ideas as if they were scientific is misleading. I think there is a difference between the physics, the philosophy, and the religion of quantum mechanics.
Physics is pure science... testable in repeatable experiments. It gives us inviolable principles that run the sub-atomic world. Exempli grati, how an electron can move from one energy level of an atom to another.
The philosophy of quantum mechanics uses logic to describe the causal relationships at the quantum level, such as the role of human observation.
Now, it becomes religion when academics stray from the repeatably testable things and attempt to guess what is behind cause and effect in quantum occurrences. This type of conjecture, especially about "what caused the quantum fluctuations that caused the big bang," is great for yucks... but really folks, take it down the hall to the religion classroom. Its pseudo-science. "Multiverse" discussions about the Big Bang are great, and I respect the religion of people who believe that stuff, but lets call a spade a spade.
A lot of academics clung to the static state theory, the infinitely oscillating universe model, the plasma model, attacks against Einstein's theory of relativity,... and other embarrassments to good science and academics with a dogmatic adherence to these absurd theories of academic gymnastics. Nowadays, the scientific community all sees these as silly.
So, I while I think it isn't a spiritual statement to say that the natural universe (where the laws of nature-- Newtonian laws, quantum laws, laws of general and special relativity, et alli all govern) was created by non-natural quantum fluctuations... any discussion about the cause and nature of the quantum fluctuations are inherently non-natural (id est, supernatural) discussions.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#26691096 - 05/23/20 07:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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that special place where we do not have solid information nor even reasonable substitute information, that place we refer to as the unknown.
the unknown is not especially spiritual.
I relate the spiritual as something transcendent and moral that we create ourselves (or not). Something related to an unknown creator who acted 13 billion years ago in some incomprehensible way is not spiritual it is a scientific mystery that will unravel for those who can ask the right questions, for me it is out of scope. I can say that I know of nobody for whom it is in scope to ask a good question about the time before time.
I imagine that those questions will provide resulting technology like warp drive, food synthesizers, and matter transporters. That wont be particularly spiritual either, but it will be fun.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26691323 - 05/23/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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What if everyone lives long and prospers?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: Rahz]
#26691377 - 05/23/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Here, here! I'll lift my glass and drink a dram to those points.
Tonight on my walk along the river a beautiful fog set in over the cow pasture, and I saw a deer run down my path. The only mushrooms I found were a clump of something that an animal had been eating, and I could not identify because most of the caps were gone. None the less, it was so beautiful and tranquil. I think my ability to appreciate these things is more than it used to be.
Back to the OP, If the visionary state is induced by prayer, meditation, cacti, or golden teachers... maybe that visionary state is the academia which provides teaching to be applied in the practitioner's world.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#26691383 - 05/23/20 10:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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So, there are academics, and practitioners, and everything in between?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience - anything to follow here? [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#26691941 - 05/24/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: ... If the visionary state is induced by prayer, meditation, cacti, or golden teachers... maybe that visionary state is the academia which provides teaching to be applied in the practitioner's world.
inspiration, or personal lessons; academia is more about the clan's acceptance, and about order, conformity, and obedience.
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MarkostheGnostic
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I think Mother Nature attempts to keep us grounded as you say. There are all these hierarchical systems in psychology and esoteric religion. The more earthbound levels embody all manner of struggle from the Maslowian Hierarchy of Needs, as soon as we receive the wake-up call to be born a titanic struggle for a first breath of air ensues. I am thinking of all the trials and tribulations of learning and of social acceptance and rejection I experienced up through late adolescence. And that was just the beginning. I had to find some way to survive, to make money in our society. Getting a protracted education was not merely in the service of survival but drew down higher motives for meaning and purpose. For my psychological type merely making a living or having social status was not sufficient. Survival, sex, and power did not rule me. I needed a meta-motive which for me dovetailed on the experiences I had sought for meaning, like my early psychedelic exploration and the subsequent pursuit of intellectual understanding of those awe-inspiring and sometimes terrifying ordeals.
Some of my townie high school friends were not troubled by existential crises of meaning. By way of comparison, one fellow I've known since age 6 worked for a dry cleaner during high school. Forgoing college he worked for Kay-Bee Toys at entry level, then manager, then a regional manager for a few states. By the time I finished college and was again living with my folks attending a nearby seminary for God-knows what purpose, he had two houses, one at the Jersey shore, a fishing boat, and a Corvette Stingray. I had nothing but some books, some music, a stereo, and my meager mostly denim wardrobe (like today). He went on to marry, had two kids, and is now a grandfather and still working at age 65. The Protestant work ethic is his guiding star. Marijuana/hashish intoxication frightened him in high school and he never took another substance other than alcohol. I moved away from NJ and we've had only rare contact. His NJ wife unfriended and blocked me from her Facebook page when I began posting anti-Trump material and now there is no going back.
Some might call this former childhood friend a "salt of the Earth" kind of fellow, and alchemically Salt is the dense, earthbound element of our nature. But he never indicated any Psychic Sulphur or Pneumatic Mercury. Never in all the years I knew him did he show a Jonathan Livingston Seagull urge to soar. The very idea of dissolving his staid world-view must've been abhorrent to him. My former friend has expanded on the earth-plane so-to-speak, he has done his due diligence biologically. He was always very sensate and probably hasn't read a book since high school. Also, he inherited racism from his father and no doubt passed it to his son if not his daughter (who married a cop). Grounded individuals it would seem sometimes (often times?) fail to draw down consciousness from the higher realms of human existence, from the soul and spirt as alchemy would say, leaving this basic hylic being (from hyle, matter) existing very materialistically. This can occur on all socio-economic levels.
Trump shat on a golden 'throne,' his home a gaudy Rococo palace, yet the man is a Philistine, a vulgar, low-class, con-man with no taste for the finer artistic, musical, intellectual achievements of the human race. My former middle-class friend remains a provincial, opinionated and even racist, unsophisticated man uninterested in art, music, philosophy, literature or in a word - ideas! Yet he has proliferated. I on the other hand did nothing to contribute to my tribe's decimation in the Holocaust and beyond that, for failing to obey the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply," Orthodox Judaism says I will have to transmigrate, return to fulfill what I have failed to do this time.I also disappointed my parents, but the thought of being a parent never really crossed my mind growing up. I have one house and a 17 year old car, but I counseled troubled, damaged, and traumatized adolescents for almost 3 decades for an educator's salary. I have never felt grounded or comfortable in my own body except on some psychedelic trips. My natal chart is very 'airy,' my Mercury (intellect) is in Leo (a Fire sign) says my wife. I seem to have defied Mother Nature for Father God, if the metaphor of being grounded is juxtaposed by being more of the 'sky.' I've always been a 'space-cadet' and after a lifetime of fighting against the gravitational pull of earthbound forces I am now free in retirement to float fairly effortlessly until my time here is up.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/26/20 01:21 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
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Excellent.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Yep.
All I will say is that I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who lifts me as regularly as I ground him.
Together through acceptance we both progress towards better selfs.
Like you though Markos the older I get the lighter I seem to be.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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DQ
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: pineninja]
#26698418 - 05/27/20 02:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
pineninja said: Yep.
All I will say is that I'm lucky enough to have a good friend who lifts me as regularly as I ground him.
Together through acceptance we both progress towards better selfs.
Like you though Markos the older I get the lighter I seem to be.
pineninja
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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I am trying not to get more whiter as I age
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: redgreenvines]
#26699266 - 05/27/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I am trying not to get more whiter as I age
"We skipped the light fandango Turned cartwheels 'cross the floor..."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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then ok! whiter shade of pale:
Quote:
And so it was that later As the miller told his tale That her face, at first just ghostly Turned a whiter shade of pale
not sure why that sounded so so good to me, it replayed in technicolor in my mind all night - (my first purple microdot.)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: redgreenvines]
#26699665 - 05/27/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Vomited on my 2nd acid trip, a 1/8" squared smear of brown gook on wax paper. Then, a year later after insufflating 2 hits of Orange Sunshine, one up each nostril. Overload on Light. VOMMMMMit. I heard A Lighter Shade of Pale after my certification dives in Key Largo. On the Saturday dive I became horribly sick and asked my partner to shoot me (he always carried). I made a father barf on his son! The next day on Dramamine I was fine. On the way home, this song was the first to come on the car's radio. Hmmm, that was 1986. Already an old song (and I'm older still).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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nausea and holiness go hand in hand you have been close to god a lot
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Ancient Mariner
Friend



Registered: 05/17/20
Posts: 76
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Do you feel that altered states are superior to normal consensus awareness? Can one exist without the other? Would it not be reasonable to suppose that evolution did not design us to be high all the time -- if, indeed, we are not naturally high all the time?
More goes through the lenses in psychedelic states. That's one reason why I love em. Opiates and alcohol, for me at least and especially over time, did the opposite. That's why I no longer do them.
Objective and subjective realities seem hinged to each other and cannot be cleanly divided, or at least be knowable. One could observe the physical reality of dreams with the right instruments and a more than human level of knowledge of neuroscience; just as a subjective experience is required to see the physical realities. I don't hold either to be superior, although for most of us on here including myself, I'll guess we generally prefer the imagination over the sciences.
I like the question of whether we are naturally high all the time or not. I think we are in a way and that these highs, which are inexpressible in scientific terminology, are very much adapted towards survival and reproduction in a chaotic world. I think Aldous Huxley in The Doors of Perception writes about this; that the reason we do not see the entire picture that mescalin and other psychedelics show us, is because it would less likely ensure survival as a species. I can't remember the details of his argument.
In some ways this would make sense. For instance, having that type of awareness expends a lot of mental energy for sure. I feel drained after psychedelics and that is only for 6 hours. Couldn't imagine being like that for weeks on end. In other ways, though, psychedelics have helped survival. This awareness allowed me and others to quit bad habits that would have shortened life.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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I contrive to have the visionary mix with the mundane as frequently as manageable to better activate and appreciate my world, especially during COVID lockdown while I do not have to be anywhere at any time.
Since big doses are harder to recover from, and while they engage epic experiences, those experiences are kind of hard to recall and weave back into a meaningful texture of life in mundanity; therefore I have drifted into smaller samplings of the infinite, samplings that are easily interspersed with ordinary life. This makes for a charmed existence if you can get away with it. (it's a bit sneaky.)
I like to be able to access visionary forms, yet if I go too far, the forms become less compatible with mundane mentality (loss for content and loss of connection). Mild visionary content, however, creates a living channel to the depths and that is pretty good; I am connecting but not trying to breathe under water.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: redgreenvines]
#26702412 - 05/28/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: nausea and holiness go hand in hand you have been close to god a lot
I never heard/read THAT before! If you're serious, care to elaborate? I remember an article Andrew Weil wrote about mushrooms entitled Throwing Up in Mexico. When I was pretty young, 4 or 5, vomiting used to evoke real terror. I think the spasms/contractions of my abdominal muscles and the gush of hot fluid up my throat flashed me back to the birth trauma and its "titanic struggle with life and death" in the birth canal with amniotic fluid being crushed out of my lungs.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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I've sworn to almost all incarnations at some point that id stop drinking if they made the hangover go away.
It's never worked....maybe because id never have kept the promise.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: pineninja]
#26702987 - 05/28/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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....annnd it's a fly ball way out into left field...
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: nausea and holiness go hand in hand you have been close to god a lot
I never heard/read THAT before! If you're serious, care to elaborate? I remember an article Andrew Weil wrote about mushrooms entitled Throwing Up in Mexico. When I was pretty young, 4 or 5, vomiting used to evoke real terror. I think the spasms/contractions of my abdominal muscles and the gush of hot fluid up my throat flashed me back to the birth trauma and its "titanic struggle with life and death" in the birth canal with amniotic fluid being crushed out of my lungs.
It may be due to ht5 receptors in the gut, but my holiest moments have been while stoned, and usually during some recovery from the most nauseous stage of a psychedelic trip.
I begin to get nauseous around holy people too. it brings it all back, and up.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: redgreenvines]
#26703664 - 05/29/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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you're a great genius
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: Ferdinando]
#26703665 - 05/29/20 07:15 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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that's someone that gets it
him and zohan
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: visionary vs. mundane experience [Re: Ferdinando]
#26704207 - 05/29/20 10:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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that guy can catch fish with his butt cheeks!!!
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