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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use * 1
    #26685548 - 05/21/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Conservative Evangelical Christians should be open to the legalization and use of Psilocybin (a.k.a. "magic mushrooms").

Written by a conservative Evangelical Christian

After a personal tragedy left me suffering the loss of several loved ones, enduring financial ruin, and court battles, I was fighting to overcome suicidal tendencies on a regular basis. I felt like I had been eaten by a wolf and pooped off a cliff. My daily stress levels gave me a stoke. I had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) from my personal tragedy, and I wished I could just move away to Antarctica to escape my pain.

It was during this time that I decided to take massive action to improve myself. I was reading the eating healthier, getting exercise, spending time in prayer, taking time to read every day, enjoying my pets, and taking St. John's wort and a whole host of other supplements to help calm my nerves. I made lists of reasons why I should stay alive on this earth, and a gratitude list that I would read every day. I cut off relationships with individuals who were negative and dragging me down. All of this helped steer me away from my suicidal thoughts, but I was still a wreck in terms of stress levels.

I learned about the clinical benefits of psilocybin, and how even a one-time dose can have long-term effects to eliminate PTSD and anxiety. I learned that psilocybin is not addictive. It says in 1 Corinthians 6:12, "'Everything is permissible' but not everything is beneficial." I had to think on this and read on it a lot. There were almost no comments from Evangelicals such as myself who had taken shrooms. After more study and reading, I concluded the following:

For a drug with no side effects, no addictions, very low cost, and life changing efficacy with as little as one single dose...  it is morally wrong and unethical of our government to prohibit such a healing creation.

a. Morality of governmental law. Our government does not mandate morality. Morality comes from God, not from our government. I Corinthians 13 days tell us to obey our government, but the context of this is questionable in cases where one's life and health are at stake, and when the government's law is clearly bad. Christ had a disciple who was a "zealot"-- an anti-governmental political activist who refused to pay taxes. There is no mention in Scripture of Jesus ever rebuking Simon for his anti-governmental attitudes. Further, as corrupt and evil as our government is, as Thoreau said, (my paraphrase) "the place for a good man in a corrupt and evil government... is in jail." If an individual does not agree with my anti-governmental sentiment, that individual could travel to an area where psilocybin is legally allowable.

b. The morality of psilocybin as a drug. Christ himself created alcohol (a drug) and distributed it at a party for recreational use. Christians serve coffee at church (another drug, which I cannot handle-- if I took any caffeine I would be awake all night), and have no problem taking horribly addictive opioid drugs when prescribed by a doctor.

After reading and study, I found some psilocybin mushrooms in the wild and took 2 grams fresh, which may or may not be approximately the weight of .25 grams dry. This initial low dose was said by others to improve the chances that my later dose would be better. I felt conflicted about taking it, because I was holding something illegal in my hand. I held it looking at it hesitating for a few minutes and then prayed, asked God to keep me safe and give me healing. At that point, I felt more like I was being overly dramatic about it, just the same as if I had gone to the doctor to get it, and popped it in my mouth, chewed it up, and swallowed it. I spent the time in prayer and seeking God for healing, playing some Hillsong music in the background. After about 30 minutes I felt strange for a little while but had no bizarre experience. The next day, I did start noticing the beauty around me a little more, and I did feel less anxiety, but still this was not a full dose, and was just my low-dose practice run.  I am going to wait about 30 days and am growing some B+ for my full dose. I will report back here for any other readers who are in a similar situation and may benefit from my experience.

As an Evangelical, I could never talk about this with any of my friends or family. They would all freak out or disown me. At the time I am writing this, Psilocybin is not understood at all by most conservative Christians. I do not believe Psilocybin is for hippies. Steriods are not just for illegal weight lifters-- steroids have a good and moral use to help people with joint pain. Opioids have a good and moral use to help people recovering from surgery, even though they are horribly addictive.

Psilocybin has a good and moral use, and was created by God. It is not and can never be addictive. Evangelicals should keep an open mind about it because of its healing, therapeutic properties. I believe it is morally wrong and sinful to prohibit doctors from using this wonderful healing medicine.

If you are an Evangelical Christian who is reading this, struggling with the morality of a treatment to heal you-- just plan on traveling to an area where its already legal. Legalization of Psilocybin may take a long time in the US, but it is going to eventually happen. I have a friend who traveled to Canada for a surgical procedure before it was approved in the US. Nobody questioned that person's integrity, nor did they feel guilty before God at all. If you travel outside the US, its fine by anyone's definitions. So far as breaking the law, I consider myself a modern day zealot. I answer to God, not to this government.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26685674 - 05/21/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hey, if you're not a Christian (or even if you're not sure where you stand) and you're reading my post... thanks for reading what I had to say! I'm a Christian, and if you have any questions or comments, you can ask me anything you like.

And...

If you've ever been offended by a Christian, please accept my apology on behalf of Christianity. Religion can keep people from coming to know God in a real and personal way. I have nothing but love for you, and am happy to answer any questions you may have. There are so many deeply spiritual people on this site, so... I am available if you are feeling led to ask that question.


Edited by Moses_Davidson (05/21/20 02:47 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #26685917 - 05/21/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I sometimes like to imagine that it is the natural sacrament.  Not that anything is wrong with bread, but no matter what a priest or someone says about how special bread is (ultimately it’s special, but just as special as any other food) -  p. Fungi can allow one to simultaneously both know intellectually & experientially know apotheosis.  Bread alone can’t do that, no matter the invocation, even though it’s a nice heady nod to the real thing itself.

Psilocybe Fungi can potentially allow = Essentially offering anyone access to direct gnosis of Unity in the body of Christ, as would be said in the Christian tradition.  Or The experiencing of All creation & the creator in non-dual primal awareness, the classical mystical experience.

Of not 2.

The great perfection.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/21/20 03:13 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 2
    #26686049 - 05/21/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I appreciate your journey.
good luck with the brethren.

keep doing good work and thinking good things. and thanks for posting, mostly, I think.
Christians get the same access here as anyone else. there should be no problem if you are one.
As a Shroomer you are one of us, and you are anyway as a person.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26686081 - 05/21/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

One of us  :rabble:


--------------------
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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26687276 - 05/22/20 05:24 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

mushrooms are like being with aliens it's like aliens being here

even just legalizing on a global level would be a step in the right direction

i'm 28 and already have come up with ideas for heaven on earth, future paradise

problem is there a a lot of morons in politics and on t earth so now our best bet or one of our best bets is the best of us teaming up

uniting and steering the earth into what the best of us want it to be

and for everyone to be thoughtful

if we all the best of us unite steer do our best pray meditate it could be enough even with these morons (people in politics right wing etc)

so far we got it covered in terms of safety and the erath not disappearing but we need to have everyone become the best of us influencing to goodness and steering into freedom and future paradise

honesty

awareness

really meditation because it moves others

we or the politicians should listen to us, to the best, be honest and find that they are the best of us and right

maybe the politicians should have psilocybin

good luck with advancing on buddhas path and towards excellence and ideality on fields

and getting closer to the middle way

there is a long way to go on fields, good to be safe, fine to be alive... you know?


but yeah get as far as possible on the fields like art and meditation and action

those are my 2 cents you are safe you are ok getting further with fields like action art is extra

the middle way is one of the things it's most about

yes to no suicide totally generally

almost by any means

I'm not saying buddhism is true and christianity is not it's just that common sense is good and we should understand our behavior

like: if you gamble stop doing it

it's very simple

why should we do this? clean up our behavior. the reasons are simple. we quit smoking because it is unhealthy we don't gamble so we have money

taking every little part of our action and cleaning it up

improving it

if something is negative we cease doing it

thus it comes into being, like we don't throw our day away

this is true this is fact


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26687744 - 05/22/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
...
honesty

awareness

really meditation because it moves others

...




hmm... if you are meditating to move others you are probably doing it wrong

but if you mean that meditating makes you more aware and honest, then that does have a positive effect on your life and that can inspire others - but it is not like a force or a push, more subtle than that, no?


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26687766 - 05/22/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hmm... if you are meditating to move others you are probably doing it wrong





But others are just other-selves.  When you bring peace to your own mind, you bring peace to others minds as well, without any force upon them.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Forrester]
    #26687808 - 05/22/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hmm... if you are meditating to move others you are probably doing it wrong





But others are just other-selves.  When you bring peace to your own mind, you bring peace to others minds as well, without any force upon them.



possibly indirectly, certainly metaphorically, yet if you make it a thing in your mind (*see my explanation {1}*), then you have drifted, unless the meditation practice is one that visualizes love, healing and compassion - and that can ultimately become a good habit in your life.

(*explanation {1}* as in if you are thinking "I am making you calmer", it is an imaginary or a delusional force, while thinking "I am paying attention to you and only doing things to make you calmer" can be really effective, but it is your self you are moving (your attention) not the other person.)

yogis and religious people often get away with half explanations of what is going on in their mental ecosystem; spending time to make the connections using ordinary language may mean a disruption in their joyous endorphins (what a downer), but I think you should try to see how things are connected.


--------------------
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26687849 - 05/22/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Well thanks for the warm welcome! The TEKs here have been so helpful, and I'm grateful for everyone who has passed them down.




Even though my initial dose was really low, I am noticing one odd transformative difference today... I'm normally really competitive, feeling like I need to measure up to others, etc.

My brother just called to show me his new place over video, and I think normally I would have been feeling very competitive, envious, jealous, uneasy, feeling bad because I don't anywhere near as much success as he does etc. But today, my reaction was just, "Hey wow, love the brick, nice, that's so cool!" Then I hung up totally at peace. I don't think I've ever had that reaction before... ever.

Afterwards I had to think about it because that was such an odd reaction for me... and I looked at my own house (which had previously always bothered me), and where normally I would have felt embarrassed of my place, as if I can't wait to get a nicer place like all the rest of my family has... none of that was there today. I stood in my kitchen looking at my house, drinking my morning beverage, and thought, "This is a good house." I realized the severity of this change of perspective, and asked myself, "But don't I want a nicer house?" I stood there a little blasé, then realized, "Huh, that could be nice. I'm hungry. What should I get for breakfast?"

I also feel like I'm less worried about potential problems... I don't know how much of it is autosuggestion and how much is efficacy... hard to tell after first dose. The next one should be more clearly discernible.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26688075 - 05/22/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

you sound much more connected to what is real in the moment.

bye bye to bullshit! yay!


--------------------
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26688974 - 05/22/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
possibly indirectly, certainly metaphorically, yet if you make it a thing in your mind (*see my explanation {1}*), then you have drifted, unless the meditation practice is one that visualizes love, healing and compassion - and that can ultimately become a good habit in your life.




I would agree for the most part, although if I understand correctly that you see the belief that we are all one as metaphorical, I don't think that's the case at all.  But that's another discussion for another thread :smile:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Forrester]
    #26689671 - 05/23/20 05:12 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

meditating

it is like one is a painting that self transcends

one doesn't have to touch something to change it

I don't know how it works but it is like you said there is something about a person who has done a lot of work on themselves

it's not because I move others to the kush ion or drawing it is like what about what we look at maybe

like inspiration yes like oh that is there and it is not bad oh better get along or over here then

I don't push or touch others in front of me but my influence is there and that is because what happened to our brains

one just makes one more fit like in the mind like excercise and that is like smiling at someone so yes it moves some and when you make 10 % of the earth move better that is good

like it going well with you or parts about you ore where you move others? like influence?

I think it is natural that when one rids thoughts that are weeds one becomes of a higher quality to others

properly done sitting is a pleasure I have had that happen and it was like ok you are centering here not long time till you have found your center or attained enlightenmet

but that was a week ago and I have done like 15 hours since and I seem far from liberation

maybe in a few years

or have found my center then


--------------------
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26689691 - 05/23/20 05:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

@ferdinando, that sounds inspiring!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #26695066 - 05/25/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

http://distelrath.tripod.com/fabbro.htm

This discovery does not indicate the use of Psilocybians by ancient Christians, but rather Amanita muscaria mushrooms, fed to snails to filter out certain more toxic ingredients, and then the snails were consumed. Psilocybians possibly replaced the A. muscaria in ancient India since they require a certain latitude where conifer trees grow. Amanita muscaria only grow in a rhizomorphic relationship with the roots of certain conifer trees (which is why you can't grow them in a lab unless there's room for a pine tree). The Mystery associated with the dung-loving Psilocybians has been imputed from the mushroom to the dung to the cows that produced the dung, thereby creating the 'sacred cow' phenomenon in India where the bovines are not to be harmed. The Rig Vedas speak of a sacred plant and most of the time A. muscaria is selected to be the plant but others have suggested both that and Psilocybians after Amanitas became scarce.

I mention this only because contrary to the religio-centric view of typical Christians who usually regard Christianity alone as being the 'only real religion,' (and the cause of unimaginable horrors towards Jews, Muslims, and Pagans), Christianity remains as one of several enduring world religions, all of which have certain things in common when viewed from the discipline of the philosophy of religion. This includes the use of plants in what would seem to be shamanic if not sacramental ways. Daniel Merkur has written books about these things, the mysterious "shewbread" kept in the Holy of Holies during the Exodus for example; the 'manna from heaven' which appeared overnight and then vanished like "hoarfrost" or later were taken by "worms." In the former case Merkur suggests that the shewbread was ergot-infected bread: "And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the people" (Leviticus 9:23) because the people were "blessed" with pieces of the shewbread and the ergot alkaloids (from which LSD is made) have a long history including the millennial long practice of Mystery Rites at Eleusis in Greece. A less dangerous form of ergot (Claviceps paspali, not Claviceps purpurea) was used which did not cause the dreaded disease of Ergotism which afflicted people from time to time from eating infected bread.

The holy anointing oil in Exodus 30 says in my KJV that "sweet calamus" is one of the ingredients. This is Acorus calamus (detractors argue and say it should read cannabis but I agree with A. calamus), a plant which contains Beta-asarones in its oil and the substance TMA (Trimetoxyamphetamine). In vitro it acts as a psychedelic (I just read Alexander Shulgin's comments on his experiments with it and how similar it is experientially with mescaline). So if the priests anointed their skin with this oil they might have received a whopping transdermal dose of a potent psychedelic with some empathogenic aspects (my own experience with mescaline had way more immediate empathogenic aspects than Psilocybin does). All this is speculative history, psycho-historical considerations,  but fundamentalist Christianity is conservative in every way excluding the possibility-pondering-psychology of free-thinking with its alternate interpretations (not "alternative facts") of scriptural writ.

I graduated from the United Methodist seminary of Drew University with an MTS degree in 1978 and have had some time to process the content of my studies since then. I do not promulgate lawlessness (I am an ethical mental health professional), but the act of plucking a mushroom from a pile of cow dung being a crime is absurd in the extreme as is the act of eating it. Consider that Christians were OK to own slaves. SLAVES! (Colossians 3:22, Ephesians 6:5) as a comparison with what is more or less immoral. I am also decidedly NOT conservative, fundamentalist, or literalist in my understanding of Christian scriptures. I understand midrash, mythos, and metaphor as being the reality of biblical material, not historicity, whether the Tenach, the New Testament, the Pseudepigrapha, the Christian Apocrypha, or the Nag Hamadi library (Gnostic scriptures). I suppose I am something of a Jewish-Christian Entheogenic Gnostic for lack of a better descriptor.



:peace:
MarkostheGnostic


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26695516 - 05/25/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:manofapproval:


--------------------
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #26715272 - 06/02/20 09:53 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Moderate initial doses to test the waters. Instead of waiting 30 days to do a full dose, I decided to take another smaller dose to take it easy. I had been reading that small initial doses for noobs is always a safe bet. I took .75 grams for my second small preliminary dose.

The experience was very mild. After an hour I saw the walls start to flex a little, and saw some faint spiral patterns developing here and there, and I felt a little strange for about 30 minutes, and then that was it.

Anecdotal effects. The next day I was speaking to an attorney about some unpleasant matters, and he said, "Wow, you are taking this really well. I can't believe it." So, I still do feel a lot of general anxiety, but I think my perspective is clearly better already, even before taking a full dose. Another unexpected difference is that all of the sudden I have the ability to eat smaller portions.

Philosophical reflections.
1. As medicine. Having reflected on all of this for a few days, to me it seems that psilocybin is just another medicine. Where I had a a lot of doubts before, I am firmly convinced now that psilocybin is morally good and a blessing to mankind just like anesthetic for a medical procedure, penicillin, or vitamin C.

2. As legal medicine in the US. I think there are a lot of great things out there waiting to be discovered, and psilocybin is "waiting to be discovered" as a tremendous blessing to the world. After looking at the research, reading anecdotal accounts, and having experienced it myself, it is so clear that this is a medicine that half of humanity needs to take right away... I cannot imagine that it is even possible that it will be able to stay illicit for much longer. I have a family member who flew outside the US for a surgery that was still "experimental" in the US and not approved. Her US doctor went with her to watch the surgery. I don't think there was anything remotely unethical about this, and likewise I don't think there is anything remotely unethical about leaving the US to get a medical treatment for a medical purpose.

3. As illicit medicine in the US. It seems silly to me that gambling is illegal unless you do it on a boat, and only in cases where that boat is floating freely in the water for at least 2 hours per day without being docked, or unless you cross a line in the sand and gamble on an Indian reservation. Silly. Further, I think it would be immoral and horrible for the US to outlaw vitamin C, or to proclaim that anesthetic should be illegal for surgeries. Likewise, it would be immoral and horrible for any government to outlaw freedom of religion, and I would encourage any good person to practice their religion as they see fit in defiance of that bad governmental law.

4. Accountability. Anyone prepared to defy any law on the moral high ground should weigh the potential risks against the potential benefits, and be prepared to accept the potential legal repercussions (if there were ever to be any).

5. Ethical implications. I think in light of the above, anyone wanting to do as much good as possible should therefore speak up on the subject of legalization. If right-wing Evangelicals were to recognize that psilocybin is a highly effective treatment for depression, anxiety & PTSD, addictions, numerous mental disorders, and lack of empathy... I think the rest of the voting population would shrug their shoulders and say OK. I believe if you are a right-wing Evangelical Christian (like me), it is your ethical obligation to operate within your own sphere of influence to make the world a better place. If we knew about anesthetic and how it could ease suffering and pain for patients having amputations etc., we would see it as our Christian duty to inform others. Likewise, we Christians should probably approach pastors one-on-one and other leaders to help educate people so that this valid medical treatment is put into the hands of doctors at a minimum.

6. "Do not get drunk with wine." I think its important to clarify that psilocybin is not wine, and "heroic" doses are not necessary to achieve permanent therapeutic results. Drunkenness puts a person in a position where they can make decisions they may regret. I had to have a colonoscopy. They put me under a powerful drug, and got me totally gorked. I am glad for this! No way would I want to be awake for a ride on the big horrible anal probe. Christians have no hangups about being completely incoherent and incapacitated by a drug in this case, and should not have any hangups about any other therapeutic treatment that is done in a controlled setting. Therapeutic use of any substance, especially one with zero chance of being addictive, with proper supervision, is not drunkenness.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Edited by Moses_Davidson (06/03/20 07:18 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26715289 - 06/02/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineUnlimitedCuriosity
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26731831 - 06/09/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

They recently discovered marijuana in the Holy of Holies of a temple from 750BC. It was mixed with cow feces which makes it burn slower indicating that it was smoked as a part of religious ceremonies. This is a pretty big discovery because until now Jews/Christians were really the only religions not believed to use psychedelics as a part of their spiritual practices. However, when Jesus was supposedly alive wine was fortified with all kinds of different things,the two most common were marijuana and turpentine. So it's pretty likely Jesus ingested marijuana if he did, in fact, exist.

I could get into man's law vs. biblical law, but I won't as that is up to so many different interpretations.

I will say this,humans have been using mind altering substances since we obtained consciousness. Perhaps before then as many animals purposefully use mind altering substances. The government classifies shrooms and LSD as Schedule I narcotics meaning they are very addictive and have zero medicinal benefits. Both of those things are complete BS, plenty of science to back that up. In fact, some studies have shown that psychedelics may help with addiction to other substances. Based on the scientific research around the use of shrooms, LSD, ketamine, etc. to fight Major Depressive Disorder and PTSD alone it's immoral that the government classifies them as illegal (while actively lying about their safety and medicinal benefits).

I grew up in a Christian household, went to a small private Southern Baptist school, but I consider myself agnostic. I based most of my beliefs around cold, hard science, but I know that you can have ”spiritual experiences” on psychedelics. Not always, but when it happens it's truly profound and can completely change the way you view the world around you.

There are Christian churches that have gotten permission from the government to use ayahuasca in religious ceremonies. Not to get political, but a lot of my ideals are libertarian. People should be able to pretty much do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I would recommend meditation and respectful use of shrooms to just about any adult... Both are scientifically proven to drastically improve your mental health. We could all use that right now.

I like that you are thoughtful about it, but I don't understand why it's a huge moral dilemma. Most Christian views on ”vices” have no basis in Biblical law. A lot of Christians use the umbrella verses about your body being a temple, but if you look into the translation of those verses they aren't talking about treating your physical body well, it's all about your spiritual ”body”. Even if you disagree with that, half of Americans are overweight, even more are depressed because they don't do basic things proven to be beneficial for mental health like eating healthy, exercising, getting enough sleep, avoiding too much screen time, etc. All of those things should be much bigger concerns than ingesting a plant that's been used safely for at least eleven thousand years. I actually make myself "earn" my trips through meditation, healthy living, continuously seeking knowledge, etc. I set expectations for the trip, but once it starts you just have to let go and see where the medicine takes you. Once you have a trip with ego dissolution it will change your life... Your ego is still there, but it's changed and you are able to be much more honest with yourself which allows for tremendous personal growth. It also seems that psychedelics almost universally make people more open minded and empathetic... Those are good things, right?

Not attacking anyone's personal beliefs. Just providing some information and my fairly well educated view on the topic.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: UnlimitedCuriosity]
    #26732959 - 06/09/20 11:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

#1 post! :congrats: Allow me to be the 1st to congratulate you!

Greek wines had to be diluted 20:1 with water or else they could be fatal owing to the toxic psychoactive herbs that were steeped in the wine (e.g., Solanacea family). The myth of Persephone (The Kore) being abducted to the Underworld by Hades happened while she was gathering herbs in a thyrsus (fennel stalk). The turpentines (terpenes) in wine should not be confused with mineral turpentine (white spirit) which is a petroleum based substance. The turpentines the go into the production of retsina are derived from pine resins and this type of wine predates the time period attributes to Iesous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retsina

Cannabis resin may have been added to camel dung to produce hashish in some places in the Middle East, but it seems more likely it was burned on dung (like the Yak dung Tibetans used for lack of firewood at those altitudes) in the form of incense. It would have been used ritually by the High Priests (no pun intended) and not for profane use so it is NOT likely that Iesous used cannabis ritually since he was not a Jewish priest.  Inhalation through pipes has not been proven to have been used Before the Common Era (BCE).

"Cannabis was common in Eurasia before the arrival of tobacco, and is known to have been used since at least 5000 BC. Cannabis was not commonly smoked directly until the advent of tobacco in the 16th century. Before this cannabis and numerous other plants were vaporized on hot rocks or charcoal, burned as incense or in vessels and censers and inhaled indirectly. Evidence of direct smoking before the 16th century is contentious, with pipes thought to have been used to smoke cannabis dated to the 10th to 12th centuries found in Southeastern Africa." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smoking


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26742869 - 06/13/20 10:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not a Christian but I've read the Bible and I know but no where in the Bible does it say thou shall follow the laws of the United States of America no matter how stupid. You can be an Evangelical Christian and eat mushrooms....I come from an Evangelical Christian background and other than the fact that they said it was bad because it's illegal I can't think of any reason and never saw one written. As far as the therapeutic benefits...as an evangelical maybe you'll appreciate this colloquialism - brother you're preaching to the choir.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26742955 - 06/13/20 11:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I think he knows that he’s preaching to the choir for the most part - and is using this forum as a place to train and flesh out his experiences and ideas in a coherent fashion.  In a way Sort of rebuking what is the ignorantly based conventional belief that psychedelic fungi are inherently bad because they are illegal or contain psychoactive substances - the usual and “timid and normal view” taken by large swaths by Christians in general.  Which is a highly ignorant and presumptuous one at that, largely due to it being taboo for many and thus going largely unexamined.

He’s Kind of boxing his shadow or a previous iteration of the psyche’s reincarnation (< being another time in his life when he held aforementioned beliefs about fungi).  Mind you, I am projecting quite a bit here.  But, I’ll imagine there is some degree of truth to what I’m saying - no matter how small.  These things are nearly impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt due to the limits of online discussion.
Anyways, moving on...

I went through a similar thing when I was growing up in my teens.  I think people can go through it at any age once they can more or less think for themselves to some degree.  Dangerously beginning to question the contrivances of ones own conjecture & beliefs & hidden assumptions underlying every and each thought that’s thunk, and every word that’s spoken, and every action that’s taken in ones life.

I did that until coming to the core and all there was there was unknowing, and knowing that I could finally say: this much was true, I really knew nothing, was the beginning of a new sense of morality, discernment, and wisdom in my life.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26743013 - 06/13/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I know.

I don't think religion is important...its dedication to the cause. Diversity is the key to to growth.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26743022 - 06/13/20 11:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I don’t think it’s unimportant.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26743087 - 06/14/20 12:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

On an individual level it is, but it's not anyone's business to judge what religion belongs where. To me personally all recognized religions are the same thing...just religion.

Quote:

Well, you say that it's gospel but I know that it's only church


- Tom Waits


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26949216 - 09/22/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

My Conclusion
Analysis of Psilocybin and Christianity


Academic Conclusions. There are a lot of great studies indicating that psilocybin is not addictive, has an extremely low potential for abuse, is helpful in a wide array of therapeutic applications, can be beneficial even in low (non-trippy) doses, and has no known adverse side effects in typical doses. Other academics indicate that the risk of a “bad trip” can be mitigated by proper set and setting, and that the only individuals who will experience any lasting negative effects are those who are already prone to schizophrenia. For academic reading, and proper citations, I recommend that anyone interested should search on www.scholar.google.com. This issue does not seem to be politically divided, which is refreshing.

Random Anecdotes. There are numerous benefits to an empirical and scientific approach to all learning, especially in the context of Christianity. I am not dismissive of individuals who hold to their spirituality (or their atheism) by faith in what someone simply told them to believe, or by their own perceptions of their own experiences, but I have chosen to base all of my beliefs (right and wrong) on my best interpretation of verifiable empirical data, data derived from testable and repeatable test results, and data that can be mathematically (philosophically) proven. That being said, here are a few really cool anecdotal tidbits that may be valuable to you, or you may think they are worthless:
a. The healing from one small dose was life-changing, in a distinct, and pronounced way. Those who are close to me have even noticed that I am a better person.
b. The healing from a few large doses of psilocybin was even more of the same.
c. I have a lot of new gratitude. It was a lot of novelty. I see nothing unethical about enjoying your therapy. Many things in life now seem to be new, fresh, and so enjoyable. Having a grateful heart is a godly trait.
d. I am more humble. I make fun of myself a lot more. I don’t care to prove my points. I don’t care if people agree with me. I don’t care to be right, to look good in front of others, and I am probably a lot less of a jerk to be around now. I realize that so much of my life as a born again, spirit-filled, saved & baptized Christian was still based upon pride and ego.
e. Self-discipline has improved. I exercise more. I eat better. My relationships have improved.
f. I am no longer living in fear. My feeling of societal and financial dread has disappeared. I am free to be happy to enjoy my surroundings, with a heart of gratitude.
g. I was able to finally forgive. I was wronged by a few individuals, and it had been eating away at me on the inside for years. I tried and tried, repeatedly, to forgive them, but the feelings of hatred just kept coming back. After one huge dose of shrooms, all of that was gone (the small dose didn’t do that). Today I can think of those people and I just don’t have any reaction. I still think they are not the kind of people I would want to be around, and I can still recognize that they are pretty awful to be around, but I have no latent emotional baggage to carry when I think of them. I am now free of all of that bitterness.
h. I think there is a case for taking a small dose every 2 weeks, which I intend to do for the time being. Not only should this be made legal, it should be given to vast multitudes of people who have clinical depression, PTSD, the terminally ill, people fighting addictions, and a whole host of other people. There are people who don’t have any of these problems,… and then there are most people. So, “most people” could benefit from at least one treatment of psilocybin. 
i.


Unsolicited Opinion on Alternative Treatments.

j. DMT is overkill in my fallible opinion. I recommend just good ole’ natural shrooms. Smoking DMT looks like smoking meth, and would be very hard to explain to your kids who wouldn’t see the difference between smoking a “healing” white crystal in a strange looking apparatus and a “death sentence” white crystal in another.  I wanted to get a “full experience” and did about 750 mg in a 24 hour period including a series of “breakthroughs.” Afterwards, I felt like it didn’t last long enough, I missed the familiar come-up of shrooms, and after all that I felt like I had just gotten done smoking one big urinal cake and then eating another urinal cake. If you are a Christian just wanting maximum healing, don’t do DMT, you’ll feel like a crack smoker, feel terrible for doing it, and if you get caught by the local authorities have fun explaining that one. Just do good ole shrooms that grow in the ground. I would compare it like this: DMT vs. shrooms is like 5 minutes with a hooker vs. spending a whole day with the woman you love.
k. If you want a fully legal* medicine, Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose seeds are easy to get, and perfectly legal as long as you take them unrefined. I did a whole bunch of that too. Thought I had killed myself. 12 seeds were too much. It is a lot like shrooms, except DO NOT EAT anything prior to or after your trip. Also the come down seemed slower than shrooms for me. I wanted to vomit and vomit, but I was on an empty stomach so it was a rough ride. All I can say is that if you are out for healing, nobody will accuse you of just trying to have a good thrill if you take Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose seeds. Wow effective but talk about feeling barfy. If your conscience won’t let you take shrooms, go for the Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose but just remember you will feel sick to your stomach and need to drink a lot of water to flush out all of the other junk in the seeds that makes you feel sick. However, I would prefer a day of nausea to the expense and time of having to travel to Jamaica, Holland, etc. for legal psilocybin.

*Legality: Imagine a group of squirrels in your back yard who vote on morality of acceptable squirrel behavior in the trees they adamantly claim to own… even though you own the trees and those trees have been around for a lot longer than the presence of the squirrels. It would be just stupid. That is probably the most stupid illustration you have ever heard of… and is exactly what I think of our system of legality regarding hallucinogens. People are just a bunch of created animals occupying an earth they do not own, staking claim to “own” parts of it even though it was here long before they were. A gang of ignorant apes voting to prohibit organic foods, or physical therapy, would be absolutely ridiculous and evil, and the place for a good person in such a society is in the place of rebellion. Regarding the moral obligation of Christians to obey their governments, Simon the Zealot was never condemned by Jesus for refusing to pay taxes, and was never condemned for his anti-governmental political affiliations as a Zealot. The Zealots were political extremists who refused to pay taxes, acknowledge Rome, and many even refused to speak Greek. Yet Jesus never took a scorge of cords to Simon’s back for this belief, nor went on a crusade to stamp out the Zealots for their refusal to obey their government. A government should be obeyed, but not in cases where it is evil. There is nothing good about a law that prohibits a wonderful blessing created by God which is so clearly a cure to mass suffering. Mark my words: the illegality of shrooms will be more temporary than our lives on this earth, and civilization in the future looking back at us will think our government was oppressive and primitive.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26950217 - 09/22/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry if my karma ran over your dogma, but...



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26951450 - 09/23/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
.... Mark my words: the illegality of shrooms will be more temporary than our lives on this earth, and civilization in the future looking back at us will think our government was oppressive and primitive.




.    I do not share your optimism, and think it totally unfounded. Without an understanding of why the world is so messed up today, both economically, politically, and physically (global warming, pollution, and so on & on), there is no basis for making such predictions, rather the fact that all these factors happened in the first place and continue to accelerate suggests the exact opposite.

.    I get that you are enthusiastic, & experiencing positive results, as was Tim Leary & many others, but that does not ensure any sort of world change for the better.
.    In Brazil where psychedelic use is legal, the country is a total mess.
.    Part of integrating tripping involves staying grounded and balanced in one's life as a whole IMO.
.    Also impermanence would seem to be a major message of any psychedelic use, yet you blithely say: "... will be more temporary than our lives..."  seems to me you missed something rather important ... but never mind I'm 'just another bozo at the back of the bus'.


Edited by laughingdog (09/23/20 04:50 PM)


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: laughingdog]
    #26951554 - 09/23/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

.    In Brazil where psychedelic use is legal, the country is a total mess.
.    Part of integrating tripping involves staying grounded and balanced in one's life as a whole IMO.
.    Also impermanence would seem to be a major message of any psychedelic use, yet you blithely say: "... will be more temporary than our lives..."  seems to me you missed something rather important ... but never mind I'm 'just another bozo at the back of the bus'.




I don't think one good thing will harken utopian bliss on earth... so I agree with you there. But hey, a step in the right direction is a step in the right direction.

Yeah integration is important for sure.

Well, if the ban lasts an average lifespan (71 years?), and it started in 1971, then I guess in my blithe rambling I predicted it would be legalized by 2042. Well... maybe I should have said, "...will be temporary, sort of like our lives..." But even still, I think its highly possible that legalization could happen by 2042. Sure.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26951577 - 09/23/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Sorry if my karma ran over your dogma, but...





Nope, my dogma is still on his leash. Maybe you done run over the neighbor's dogma.

I've changed my mind so many times over the years, that I have to absolutely say that I am always 100% open-minded, and nobody can ever change my mind on that opinion.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conservative Evangelical Christians and Psilocybin Use [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26952285 - 09/24/20 07:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

so you could lead in with "mark my changed mind," psilocybin will be come legal.


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