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OfflineDdaShroom
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Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? * 2
    #26658884 - 05/09/20 12:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ok so say you find a species of mushroom that is said not to grow in your state, province, or even country. Yet you found it. It's there. How would one go about "claiming" that as the first (x) species to ever be found in your state.

For example: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26002160/page/5

Is that possible? How is it verifiable? What other things must be considered I nthis process?


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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom] * 1
    #26662007 - 05/10/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’m just an amateur in this, but I think you would have to publish your findings, even if it’s just a preprint (eg: on BioArxiv). I think you’d want to provide as strong evidence as possible (eg ITS sequence verification and data, morphological information both macro and microscopic). Assuming no one else has published this same information before you, it’s fair to say you found it first in that region.

OTOH, it might be enough to just put your observation somewhere like mushroom observer. But if you want explicit credit from academic mycologists for something, you’ll probably have to meet their standards of proof.


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OfflineDdaShroom
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26662501 - 05/10/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
I’m just an amateur in this, but I think you would have to publish your findings, even if it’s just a preprint (eg: on BioArxiv). I think you’d want to provide as strong evidence as possible (eg ITS sequence verification and data, morphological information both macro and microscopic). Assuming no one else has published this same information before you, it’s fair to say you found it first in that region.

OTOH, it might be enough to just put your observation somewhere like mushroom observer. But if you want explicit credit from academic mycologists for something, you’ll probably have to meet their standards of proof.



in terms of mycology on BioRXIV there is no subject area on mycology... meaning they dont have a submission section for mycology


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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom]
    #26662701 - 05/10/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ok interesting. I wonder what the equivalent is for mycological papers or if there even is one?


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26664197 - 05/11/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

No disrespect but there are tons of species and boundaries are constantly shifting because of climate change.

Here in Europe it is not such a big deal cause the countries aren't big. I found a certain species of red-stemmed bolete as the first in my area but not first in my country.

It got recorded in a website cataloguing observations in nature so you can track sightings etc, idk what you guys in the US have that is like this.

Can't say that much about real credit but as i am basically a junior in my local mushroom studygroup doing excursions and stuff, it was just conveyed to me that you can report it like that but it's not such a big deal so kind of a shrug at real credits of some kind.
Maybe its different when the countries are much larger and the species is considered very significant for some reason.

this is just my experience on the topic.


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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26664491 - 05/11/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It might also be more significant if the habitat in which you found the species was significantly different to the one in which it’s usually found, I would guess.

So if you found Amanita Muscaria growing on a pile of dung, for example, that would be significant because as far as I know, that’s a mycorrhizal species with special symbiotic relationships.


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OfflineDdaShroom
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26664537 - 05/11/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
It might also be more significant if the habitat in which you found the species was significantly different to the one in which it’s usually found, I would guess.

So if you found Amanita Muscaria growing on a pile of dung, for example, that would be significant because as far as I know, that’s a mycorrhizal species with special symbiotic relationships.




Agreed. For example, one that I've found is one of only 4 in the midwest which may open a door for the species being more widespread in agricultural areas than once thought, and maybe more prairie like ecosystems?

Another was one of only 7 observations on iNat.

Etc etc

I guess, to me atleast, this is of importantance due to the fact that it helps further the discussion of where and why fungu grow and how widespread they may truly be.

Thoughts?


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom]
    #26668987 - 05/13/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

here on this site are some of the most respected cultivators on the planet right now hopefully they will see this post and advise.


--------------------
"say, you got a little astroglide on your moustache"


Edited by PinkStormtrooper (05/13/20 05:26 PM)


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OfflineDdaShroom
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: PinkStormtrooper]
    #26669026 - 05/13/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PinkStormtrooper said:
here on this site are some of the most respected cultivators on the planet right now hopefully they will see this post and advise.



Hopefully! Because I'd love to contribute.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26683145 - 05/20/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
It might also be more significant if the habitat in which you found the species was significantly different to the one in which it’s usually found, I would guess.

So if you found Amanita Muscaria growing on a pile of dung, for example, that would be significant because as far as I know, that’s a mycorrhizal species with special symbiotic relationships.




Yes kind of, but i feel it would take possibly relatively advanced knowledge of work (not saying i have it) to make sure that what fruits seem to be growing from actually plays a significant role in their habitat.
We don't really see much of the underground mycelium, so idk what happens if a mycelium is starved of nitrogen and it gets super replenished by some dung in a particular situation and pretty much right there shoots some fruits maybe a little desperate for survival.

Things  may not be as they appear. If you are an ecologist and you track down something really novel then hats off to you of course. But idk from what i understand even expert mycologists get stumped and surprised on the regular so i guess that means a lot of potential work and due diligence before anyone should really thing about accreditation.

anyway i am not installed in academics and not involved with credits and i'd kinda like to keep it that way.

I joined a nature historic society and their mushroom study group, with plenty of long time experienced people / experts in some matters and i guess i am fortunate that it is a bit of an outsider group (there are interesting historical reasons for it) so also less hierarchy and powerplay, i feel comfortable deferring matters like first finds to their consideration.
We in NL (and its also elsewhere) have a site/app involving recording observations and AI identification and such, which also plays a role in records and i think there is more honesty if the credit is implicit in having a first recorded observation of some kind.. with varying datasets you can put the observation in different perspective, also with progressing insight of science.


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26683215 - 05/20/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Quote:

24sevenZed said:
It might also be more significant if the habitat in which you found the species was significantly different to the one in which it’s usually found, I would guess.

So if you found Amanita Muscaria growing on a pile of dung, for example, that would be significant because as far as I know, that’s a mycorrhizal species with special symbiotic relationships.




Yes kind of, but i feel it would take possibly relatively advanced knowledge of work (not saying i have it) to make sure that what fruits seem to be growing from actually plays a significant role in their habitat.
We don't really see much of the underground mycelium, so idk what happens if a mycelium is starved of nitrogen and it gets super replenished by some dung in a particular situation and pretty much right there shoots some fruits maybe a little desperate for survival.

Things  may not be as they appear. If you are an ecologist and you track down something really novel then hats off to you of course. But idk from what i understand even expert mycologists get stumped and surprised on the regular so i guess that means a lot of potential work and due diligence before anyone should really thing about accreditation.

anyway i am not installed in academics and not involved with credits and i'd kinda like to keep it that way.

I joined a nature historic society and their mushroom study group, with plenty of long time experienced people / experts in some matters and i guess i am fortunate that it is a bit of an outsider group (there are interesting historical reasons for it) so also less hierarchy and powerplay, i feel comfortable deferring matters like first finds to their consideration.
We in NL (and its also elsewhere) have a site/app involving recording observations and AI identification and such, which also plays a role in records and i think there is more honesty if the credit is implicit in having a first recorded observation of some kind.. with varying datasets you can put the observation in different perspective, also with progressing insight of science.




First of all, sounds like a really interesting group, that's awesome! Second, I'd love if you could link the "historical reasons" for it being an outside group/hobby.. that sounds fascinating to read about tbh..

And lastly, for example on finding something novel in an area, this thread here is a perfect example that im referencing: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26653604

I just feel like not recording it hurts the advancement of mycology. The more we know about fruiting bodies, and fungi as a whole the better right? And somebody has to inevitably be the first if that's the case... it's not an ego boost thing, rather an advancement of our knowledge of how they fruit and why they fruit that I find important, so I I theres a place that one can say (officially) "HEY GUYS, I found this in a new area!"

What are your thoughts?


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom]
    #26683954 - 05/20/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Oh i think it came down to basically tha I live in the southern part of the Netherlands and we had an older such society, then later came the national society and we didn't join it - political stuff and you know how those things go. idk if part of the reason is we are so much on the outskirts of the country so there is not so much solidarity in the broad sense.

I've been to the national mycology conference here tho, last time.. interesting lectures and stuff. Hardly networked or anything but anyway i guess i like being on the outskirts.

Exploring, observing, analyzing and reporting in general can benefit mycology and it's advancement. It seems to me a lot more hinges on the limitations of the reporting and analysis system. I know the people behind our 'domestic' reporting site have little time to deal with things, there are also a bunch of backchannels between study groups and societies and what have you.

So you're right but i'd just reframe it a little - if you can not only make really cool observations but also navigate your way around the groups and societies of your area then you can contribute and make a difference. I can't really tell you exactly but i think there are various bottlenecks/limitations and issues along the way of that happening, like it doesn't in many places seem to be a well organized system and network per se, then there is also some politics and taxonomical complications and fighting... i mean

you could do a whole lot of good but you would also need to be able to play that game and it helps if you have either a support system (like some study/hunting group) while you're learning or know how to actively play a role in the analysis of samples and ecology.

This feels more for the hunting forum but i gotta say i have had a bunch of surprises about my study group like pretty much nobody seems to be interested in eating mushrooms or their applications its like the die-hards that stay are there purely for the fungi - and people thinking about applications are more recently upcoming, tangential, and i guess more young and fluky too sometimes.

i def dont blame any mycological organization on any level it just seems surprisingly obscure so the resources are limited and it completely changes the meaning of making some observation. There are apparently plenty of people making general observations and very few involved with organizing the data, these observation and ID websites are imo a vitally important start for the data warehousing and higher level reporting.

if you wanna report very very specific things and aint nobody got any time, you might wanna get good enough to write an article yourself on it!

a buddy of mine who is in the group and has been for years (and he organizes a lot of stuff).. he told me the myco world here but apparently anywhere is relatively so obscure and complicated for the work thats yet been done that it is easy to get involved in some topic deeply and basiically become a sort of expert. I guess not quite the same as one of these guys here who has been working on Entolomas for decades but still, i mainly think it attests to how undervalued the field is and how easily one can get in deep in it. We're outnumbered lol xD

anyway thats a long story but you may really wanna talk to ppl as 'on the inside' of this myco world as possible and see how they think..


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OfflineDdaShroom
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26684337 - 05/20/20 09:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Oh i think it came down to basically tha I live in the southern part of the Netherlands and we had an older such society, then later came the national society and we didn't join it - political stuff and you know how those things go. idk if part of the reason is we are so much on the outskirts of the country so there is not so much solidarity in the broad sense.

I've been to the national mycology conference here tho, last time.. interesting lectures and stuff. Hardly networked or anything but anyway i guess i like being on the outskirts.

Exploring, observing, analyzing and reporting in general can benefit mycology and it's advancement. It seems to me a lot more hinges on the limitations of the reporting and analysis system. I know the people behind our 'domestic' reporting site have little time to deal with things, there are also a bunch of backchannels between study groups and societies and what have you.

So you're right but i'd just reframe it a little - if you can not only make really cool observations but also navigate your way around the groups and societies of your area then you can contribute and make a difference. I can't really tell you exactly but i think there are various bottlenecks/limitations and issues along the way of that happening, like it doesn't in many places seem to be a well organized system and network per se, then there is also some politics and taxonomical complications and fighting... i mean

you could do a whole lot of good but you would also need to be able to play that game and it helps if you have either a support system (like some study/hunting group) while you're learning or know how to actively play a role in the analysis of samples and ecology.

This feels more for the hunting forum but i gotta say i have had a bunch of surprises about my study group like pretty much nobody seems to be interested in eating mushrooms or their applications its like the die-hards that stay are there purely for the fungi - and people thinking about applications are more recently upcoming, tangential, and i guess more young and fluky too sometimes.

i def dont blame any mycological organization on any level it just seems surprisingly obscure so the resources are limited and it completely changes the meaning of making some observation. There are apparently plenty of people making general observations and very few involved with organizing the data, these observation and ID websites are imo a vitally important start for the data warehousing and higher level reporting.

if you wanna report very very specific things and aint nobody got any time, you might wanna get good enough to write an article yourself on it!

a buddy of mine who is in the group and has been for years (and he organizes a lot of stuff).. he told me the myco world here but apparently anywhere is relatively so obscure and complicated for the work thats yet been done that it is easy to get involved in some topic deeply and basiically become a sort of expert. I guess not quite the same as one of these guys here who has been working on Entolomas for decades but still, i mainly think it attests to how undervalued the field is and how easily one can get in deep in it. We're outnumbered lol xD

anyway thats a long story but you may really wanna talk to ppl as 'on the inside' of this myco world as possible and see how they think..



How would one find those "inside people?"

And its investing you mention writing your own articles on your findings, because I am actually a bachelor of journalism and was already thinking of doing this. I just wish there was an ALL encompassing place where people could send in their finds and a record would be made that now x was officially found in y.


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OfflineDdaShroom
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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26684340 - 05/20/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Oh i think it came down to basically tha I live in the southern part of the Netherlands and we had an older such society, then later came the national society and we didn't join it - political stuff and you know how those things go. idk if part of the reason is we are so much on the outskirts of the country so there is not so much solidarity in the broad sense.

I've been to the national mycology conference here tho, last time.. interesting lectures and stuff. Hardly networked or anything but anyway i guess i like being on the outskirts.

Exploring, observing, analyzing and reporting in general can benefit mycology and it's advancement. It seems to me a lot more hinges on the limitations of the reporting and analysis system. I know the people behind our 'domestic' reporting site have little time to deal with things, there are also a bunch of backchannels between study groups and societies and what have you.

So you're right but i'd just reframe it a little - if you can not only make really cool observations but also navigate your way around the groups and societies of your area then you can contribute and make a difference. I can't really tell you exactly but i think there are various bottlenecks/limitations and issues along the way of that happening, like it doesn't in many places seem to be a well organized system and network per se, then there is also some politics and taxonomical complications and fighting... i mean

you could do a whole lot of good but you would also need to be able to play that game and it helps if you have either a support system (like some study/hunting group) while you're learning or know how to actively play a role in the analysis of samples and ecology.

This feels more for the hunting forum but i gotta say i have had a bunch of surprises about my study group like pretty much nobody seems to be interested in eating mushrooms or their applications its like the die-hards that stay are there purely for the fungi - and people thinking about applications are more recently upcoming, tangential, and i guess more young and fluky too sometimes.

i def dont blame any mycological organization on any level it just seems surprisingly obscure so the resources are limited and it completely changes the meaning of making some observation. There are apparently plenty of people making general observations and very few involved with organizing the data, these observation and ID websites are imo a vitally important start for the data warehousing and higher level reporting.

if you wanna report very very specific things and aint nobody got any time, you might wanna get good enough to write an article yourself on it!

a buddy of mine who is in the group and has been for years (and he organizes a lot of stuff).. he told me the myco world here but apparently anywhere is relatively so obscure and complicated for the work thats yet been done that it is easy to get involved in some topic deeply and basiically become a sort of expert. I guess not quite the same as one of these guys here who has been working on Entolomas for decades but still, i mainly think it attests to how undervalued the field is and how easily one can get in deep in it. We're outnumbered lol xD

anyway thats a long story but you may really wanna talk to ppl as 'on the inside' of this myco world as possible and see how they think..




In terms of people who study microscopy for example, not being big into eating fungi or medicinal uses of fungi, etc. And those that only eat and trip on them bot being into the science behind it... I do agree but also argue it's down to individual. I like to indulge in all personally if available.


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom]
    #26685706 - 05/21/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes people just have a different approach, mushrooms mean something unique to each of us it depends on our experiences, impressions, personality and so forth. Some experiences can be highly emotional and mentally imprinting, apparently part of that is epigenetic - there may be some changes to the manifestation of DNA from extremely emotional experiences from what I understand.
There can apparently be cognitive effects passed on to offspring, so it seems it doesnt take millenia to make evolutionary changes that condition us..
Possibly mycophobia is such a hangup, being passed on en masse by our ancestors, even if some knew about different mushrooms the average individual possibly just not so much?

anyway off-topic hahaha

If you are interesting in trying to eat potentially just about any mushroom I guess you don't have a lot of hangups about mushrooms lol.

It's curious how so many species are recorded to be "inedible" but are considered edible just fine by other people, maybe even a delicacy if prepared correctly...


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26686559 - 05/21/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
Yes people just have a different approach, mushrooms mean something unique to each of us it depends on our experiences, impressions, personality and so forth. Some experiences can be highly emotional and mentally imprinting, apparently part of that is epigenetic - there may be some changes to the manifestation of DNA from extremely emotional experiences from what I understand.
There can apparently be cognitive effects passed on to offspring, so it seems it doesnt take millenia to make evolutionary changes that condition us..
Possibly mycophobia is such a hangup, being passed on en masse by our ancestors, even if some knew about different mushrooms the average individual possibly just not so much?

anyway off-topic hahaha

If you are interesting in trying to eat potentially just about any mushroom I guess you don't have a lot of hangups about mushrooms lol.

It's curious how so many species are recorded to be "inedible" but are considered edible just fine by other people, maybe even a delicacy if prepared correctly...




The stigma for/against fungi is absolutely fascinating to me and what you said even more specifically has sent me down a rabbit hole of thought... how fast could a large group of people change that stigma? How fast could a small group do the same?

I notice it in my own circles, the more you teach people around you, your family, your friends, neighbors, strangers that watch you pick mushrooms, etc. the more I've noticed others become involved in the world of fungi. So that leads me to believe we can all have an effect on a lot of people just by teaching.


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Re: Being Credited with the "first to find species" in a certain region? [Re: DdaShroom]
    #26690062 - 05/23/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sure, inspiring people can do amazing things! It's just not that easy I guess, it may require to understand well what you want to do in your life, what your passion is and what you consider yourself to be... otherwise what are you gonna do, fake sincerity?

I agree potentially there is a lot of work to be done to shine a different light on mycology. I am not good at and don't like manipulating people but some kind of 'inception' actually seems fair to me: shine a different perspective on the essential role of fungi in nature and their usefulness to not stigmatize and disregard them because we among other things associate them with death and decay.

That might also be the hard part, if we can't change what they represent (and to be fair that association is not incorrect)... it would mean to change people's minds about death and decay being part of nature, what seems very unhealthy on one level is actually very healthy on a higher level of ecology.

In any case there is also of course a more PC way to popularize fungi and i would like to see the field grow out of obscurity.

One question i wanna conclude with is whether you can really recruit people for like a mushroom study group? Because hype can be a little pointless and apparently the most people who are dedicated and truly interested, those who remain long term, also usually find you in their own way.
It's difficult, i'm inclined to say exposing people even to the possibility can create more people who themselves become devoted. Cause we can all use that 'spark', occasionally under perfect conditions it can set something off in people.. but you can't really change the underlying psychology easily at all of the population at least not in ways i'm interested in.


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