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Anonymous

pressure?
    #2667974 - 05/12/04 11:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what sort of 'pressure' (if any) do you think is justifiable in interrogations?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2668070 - 05/12/04 12:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever the Geneva Convention allows. I'm pretty sure that in a lot of police interrogations, they threaten them with longer sentences if they don't talk, or will offer to go easy on them if they squeal on their accomplices. Seems like this might work in foreign conflicts as well.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: pressure? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2668385 - 05/12/04 01:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what about the geneva convention agreements being mostly a crock of horseshit?

...shotguns illegal in war.. pfft...


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2668507 - 05/12/04 02:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think there are a tremendous amount of variables involved in this kind of question. I was disgusted by the recently released actions of our troops in Iraq and completely reject them in this situation. However, say we had information that a nuclear device was in some major city in the United States and would detonate in the next 24 hours. Say we had the leader of the terrorist organization who had planned and carried out the attack up to this point in custody. I would support just about ANY AND ALL means to get this guy to talk. So to answer your actual question: Depends.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: pressure? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2669064 - 05/12/04 04:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

none


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblejp411896
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2676073 - 05/13/04 11:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If we were actually repelling an unwarranted attack, anything goes. A grey area conflict, stick to Geneva. A BS preemptive attack like this one, none.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2676627 - 05/14/04 04:20 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think torture is justified if it is for important information, and not sadistic pleasure....


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2676648 - 05/14/04 04:32 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

well, america is clearly going too far. they are detaining people indefinitly with no representation and no reson under secresy. they say its to make us safe. but the true is its to hide the truth. i bet a number of the americans that are secretely in guntonimo bay are people that have info that would uncover the bush cover up of the fake war. this is bullshit. the exact same this the gustopo did. america may never recover. i think the patriot act has hurt america 300% more than sept 11th, id rather loose a few lifes than have people live without feedom plus under torture someone will say anything. they wont say the truth. and they will admit tothings they havent done


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2688566 - 05/16/04 10:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Whatever the Geneva Convention allows.

meaning...

nothing.

"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind." (emphasis mine)

- Article 17

while we're following the geneva convention's guidelines, denying prisoners their monthly pay (Article 60) is stepping over the line as well...

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2690742 - 05/17/04 12:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

does anyone else have an opinion on this?


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2691205 - 05/17/04 02:47 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What's your opinion on this?


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2691255 - 05/17/04 03:00 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

it's a tough question.

if it were 100% certain that a particular person put people in danger (by setting a bomb for instance) and 100% certain that he had information required for removing innocent people from this danger, and 100% certain that he was able, but unwilling to share that information.... i'd say that anything goes.

that's just a hypothetical situation though. in the real world, there really aren't any clear lines as far as i can see.

i would say that psychological manipulation is ok. psychologically breaking prisoners down by sheilding them from daylight or other people, feeding them at irregular times, not allowing them to know the date or time, depriving them of sleep, exposing them to obnoxious noises or uncomfortable (but safe) temperatures, requiring them to be ordered around by women, removing all of their possessions expect as needed for personal heigine (including clothing) are all fair tactics.

i think that physically beating them or inflicting pain is not.

also, prisoners cannot be exposed to adverse conditions merely for revenge, punishment, sick sadistic enjoyment. there must be some pressure, but it should not go to extremes, and it may only be used for extracting very important information.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2691279 - 05/17/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i would say that psychological manipulation is ok. psychologically breaking prisoners down by sheilding them from daylight or other people, feeding them at irregular times, not allowing them to know the date or time, depriving them of sleep, exposing them to obnoxious noises or uncomfortable (but safe) temperatures, requiring them to be ordered around by women, removing all of their possessions expect as needed for personal heigine (including clothing) are all fair tactics.

i think that physically beating them or inflicting pain is not.



Why? What's the difference?


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2691302 - 05/17/04 03:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

it's a matter of degree.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2691337 - 05/17/04 03:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think a beating is a lot less dangerous than sleep deprivation and fucking with peoples minds. I've read a lot of people like the Beirut hostages and people in Auschwitz say the beatings meant nothing, the worst torture was not knowing when you would be released.


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2691400 - 05/17/04 03:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what sort of pressure do you think is acceptable?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2691517 - 05/17/04 03:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Well, lets dispense with the euphemisms. What we're talking about is what kind of torture is acceptable. Perhaps you could make an argument for it being useful if someone has planted a bomb that goes off in an hour. It could work, but then again he might just tell you anything to make you stop. By the time you find out he's lying the bomb has gone off.

The problem with this argument is we're assuming that torture is a good way of getting accurate information. More often that not it isn't. The Nazi methods of viciously torturing people were usually dismal in terms of extraction valuable information but it was effective as a means of terrorising the population.

In Guantanamo/Afghanistan/Iraq situation the americans havn't got enough skilled, trained arabic speaking interrogators. They're resorting to amateur night.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: pressure? [Re: ]
    #2691544 - 05/17/04 03:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You know, now that I think about it, people tend to let their guard down while intoxicated on certain substances, particularly depressants. If you drugged people with alcohol, benzos, or opiates, they might be more willing to talk.


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2691671 - 05/17/04 04:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The problem with this argument is we're assuming that torture is a good way of getting accurate information. More often that not it isn't.

it is if you extend your definition of torture to include all forms of psychological pressuring. there are different techniques for obtaining information from a person who doesn't want to give it up. some include breaking down a person's resistance by disorienting them psychologically. this is different from the classic "talk or i'll hurt you some more" form of torture that so often provides useless information.


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Anonymous

Re: pressure? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2691680 - 05/17/04 04:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

alcohol has always been a terrific way to get people to say things they'd rather have kept to themselves.


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