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 PTreeDish
Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 353
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 Why Do Clones Form Sectors 
#26675737 - 05/16/20 09:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I recently prepared a clone from tissue located in the pileus and volva of the specimen.
I'm now seeing that growth radiating from the tissue samples appear to be sectoring. I didn't think that would happen if all these pieces are exact genetic copies.
Could anyone fill me in on why this is happening?
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 Strainsfordaze
Registered: 05/10/18
Posts: 669
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: PTreeDish] 2
#26675741 - 05/16/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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They are not exact copies because of hyphal anastomosis. Just closer to an isolate than before.
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PTreeDish
Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 353
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Wow OK. I need to read up on that. If these sectors aren't a complete clone because of hyphal anastomosis, then how does one culture an exact genetic copy? Is it even possible?
Does this also mean that when I grow this one out, although its a semi-clone, the fruits will still bear some genetic variance because of the hyphal anastomosis?
That seems like it would make selective-breeding, which is what I'm trying to do, much more difficult.
Edited by PTreeDish (05/16/20 09:59 PM)
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PiggyPig
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: PTreeDish]
#26676317 - 05/17/20 06:19 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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If your clone is from a pure MS grow, you are less likely to see sectoring right off the bat. If you're seeing sectoring on your first dish as you say, I would assume the culture they were fruited from was already worked to reduce genetic variance.
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PTreeDish
Registered: 04/22/18
Posts: 353
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: PiggyPig]
#26676923 - 05/17/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The clone came from the fruit of an isolated strain from a multi-spore culture.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
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Loc: the Neitherlands 
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: PTreeDish]
#26677244 - 05/17/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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A university prof here in NL said this about the matter, paraphrasing:
'Cloning gives you an isolate because it is effectively one strain. There may be sectoring because of random mutations [and i think in some situations more than others it can be triggered, as i have heard others claim it can be due to trauma from transfering].'
It seems to me genetic variance as noise similar to vacuum energy (of quantum mechanics) is generally disregarded.
I know about hyphal anastomosis it involves "crosslinking" such as can also occur in veins of animals or plants. But i don't exactly see how it explains sectoring.
Most afaik understand sectoring to indicate not necessarily a certain incompatibility (there is no demarcation although it could still be produced in any further growth... but rather still a difference in growth modes and expression. So there are various possibilities including just epigenetic differences of expression?
From the information i have i wouldn't expect a sectored culture from a clone to not cooperate as an integral strain and i def think going after these differences is a red herring and should never be part of selective breeding.
I would personally try to ignore sectoring from a clone if it is so circumstantial and not focus on the small differences but on the commonality.
I know the above goes against a lot of conventional wisdom but i think that prof from one of the foremost agri research unis in the world has good cred.
Hopefully there is DNA sequencing to support it, i'd love to share that or more if so.
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PTreeDish
Registered: 04/22/18
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: Solipsis]
#26677592 - 05/17/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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The DNA sequencing might be difficult since I'd imagine the ITS region used for phylogeny is exactly the same for every sector with the differences represented in other random sequences. To nail it down, one would prob require a full sequence for each sector to determine the variances between them. Sounds like a fun project, but prob cost prohibitive? And maybe already answered? :shrugs:
Anyway, sounds like I can just grow out any of the sectors of the clone and expect ostensibly negligible differences between them.
Can't wait to learn more about selective breeding.
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Solipsis
m̶a̶d̶ disappointed scientist
Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 3,398
Loc: the Neitherlands
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Re: Why Do Clones Form Sectors [Re: PTreeDish]
#26678980 - 05/18/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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IMO the idea would be to show how much similarity there is, beyond a certain point it just seems best to disregard the differences especially if they can result from different causes than people think, ones that aren't so predictable anyway.
It would demonstrate my argument that cloning clones etc is relatively pointless because the differences are like infinitesimally tiny. And you would need to compare it to differences and influences which occur anyway like from conditions.
Conditions affect epigenetics, it doesn't give different genetics but different expression of genetics.
If nothing else, there are imo just so many red herrings here.
We can continue talking more privately, i am not that well versed about the details of selective breeding programs i just know they are generally extensive and tediously explore offspring strains for traits, even if there are particular tricks to manifest and combine the traits in efficient ways.
You can for example make a cross but both stabilizing traits is a lot lot of tedious work, and optimizing performance similarly.
The ITS sequence is important but iirc there are also ones like HET sequence involved with "compatibility checking"
Whats cost prohibitive about sequencing a couple of sectors? If you make a nice agreement with a cool place that sequences i think in some cases they help subsidize the costs and i think these days it tends to not be overly expensive anyway.
Anyway i understand if there would be a sort of argument about proving some things i said but personally think time is best spent learning about effects of conditions, epigenetics, and which breeding methods apply to which situations. Just a lot seems to get conflated in my opinion, i am learning a lot from academic friends, including how to interpret available information about growing and breeding.
There is a lot of nice info but i think the problem is people initially don't know to make the distinction and apply the right method to the right job.
I blindly isolated from MS agar myself a couple years ago but learned why this is not necessarily a mistake but it is if a home grower applies methods more meant for big breeders. makes it a quite bad idea.
i'm not an expert and mycology is apparently still quite in development.. but seems like certain demystification is needed and i hope we get it.
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