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Bodhi Registered: 08/16/16 Posts: 26,731 Loc: The Primordial Mind |
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Also, “ Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense, But the real universe is always one step beyond logic." - Dune.
Although logic is highly useful in many ways, it has its limits, it is after all, a man made human tool. -------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: Good analogy. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Bodhi Registered: 08/16/16 Posts: 26,731 Loc: The Primordial Mind |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Registered: 08/09/19 Posts: 1,936 Loc: North EU Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours |
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You have gotten plenty of good advice and understanding in this thread among which to seek professional help to a very likely mental health problem. It is not a normal result of reading about solipsism to get terrified of it, I don't think so at least. Maybe you shoul re-read through this thread a bit, look for the perspectives that you feel are needed.
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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,030 Loc: USA Last seen: 6 hours, 41 minutes |
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Quote: You seem quite passionate about things. Maybe consider loosening your grip?
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Sage Registered: 09/11/18 Posts: 1,288 Last seen: 5 days, 7 hours |
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"i'm not crazy, the rest of the world is crazy!" while arguing that solipsism is the simplest argument due to occam's razor.
![]() i keep misspelling that damn word because even the spelling of it is crazy. thank the gods for spellchecker. you keep trying to prove an unprovable argument, just like people who try to prove the existence of god in the context of science. it's just... not gonna happen. it's the wrong tool for the job. some things you just gotta learn to let go and move on from. and don't even think you can be handed all the answers in this one thread and go "oh, i get it now! :epiphany: :cosmic elucidation: life does NOT work that way. a lot of growth happens in different ways. for instance, learning to play the piano - the first step to learning to play isn't even getting the instructor to teach you - it's waiting. growing old enough to even reach the keys. thats right, some growth simply is a waiting game, with no effort involved, just a lot of time. brains take time to reach full development and maturity, with various major stages of growth at childhood, teenage years, and young adulthood, with full maturity reaching around the mid 20s to early 30s. so don't be surprised if there's things you don't "get" yet. it may be that your brain simply lacks the circuitry to grasp it currently. there's also growth that occurs from seemingly unrelated subjects. to learn to play the piano requires a grasp of symbolism (understanding that notes REPRESENT something else), math (rhythm, frequencies), physical development (to play the actual keys), language (to understand the instructors directions), and so forth. when im telling you to read the damn drizzt books im not telling you to put this off - i'm telling you this because these seemingly unrelated books actually can put you in his shoes and help give you ideas for your own life. books are a very, VERY important tool for helping you put a perspective in your own self because you are temporarily putting yourself in another persons shoes, seeing from another angle - and in doing so, being able to see your own life from another person's perspective. this is a major, MAJOR advantage for analyzing any problems in your life and finding potential solutions. then of course, there's the direct growth of instruction - kind of what we're doing now, instructing you. however, it seems you lack much of the other kinds of growth needed to make use of what we're telling you. that's fine - it's not like the knowledge is going anywhere. you can always return to this later and reflect again - i often read old books again years later and find new insights that i never found the first time! and of course, there's the growth of direct practice - practice what you preach! you never grow if you don't actually put in actual effort, and likewise you won't outgrow this fear of being the only being if you don't interact with other beings you fear are just phantasms. just like arachnophobia - people who have it first have to slowly get introduced to pictures of spiders from a distance, then as they slowly get acclimated, closer pictures of spiders, then actual spiders from a distance, and so forth, never more than they're slightly uncomfortable with. until they're actually holding a tarantula in their hands. get out of your comfort zone slightly with interacting with those "figments" of yours. not a ton, just slightly. work your way up as you get used to it, until you're fairly comfortable with day to day interactions. I used to be a totally shy around people and fearful with any interactions at all, but it was thanks to a close friend who was completely outrageous and friendly, who didn't take no for an answer, that let me open up to others. she was the one who let me practice being comfortable interacting with other people, and from there i started to work my way up to more and more people until i completely comfortable starting a conversation even with strangers. that doesn't change the fact i'm still introverted, and comfortable with silence, or that i'm not into partying or long conversations... but if someone talks to me, i'm totally happy to talk back. introversion is NOT shyness. introversion is all well and good, but shyness is not - it's something that leaves you increasingly isolated and lonely. Edited by Psion (05/14/20 03:14 PM)
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Registered: 08/09/19 Posts: 1,936 Loc: North EU Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours |
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Btw I dont think applying Occams Razor would result in solipsism. Isn't the simplest explanation a reality outside of oneself as well instead of it all being in the mind?
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Stranger Registered: 01/19/15 Posts: 2,770 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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Quote: Quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M The problem that no one has a solution for is the loneliness that comes from the possibility being true. It doesn't matter what I BELIEVE as long as there is a chance that cosmic loneliness is possible. I don't want to PRETEND that people are real and have to bear that in mind with every interaction with them. My heart wouldn't be able to take it. I mean picking something just because it's helpful to you sounds like confirmation bias and lying to yourself. -------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness. Edited by Thanatos10 (05/14/20 05:11 PM)
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Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
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Quote: You believe in the possibility, and as a result pretend that people are not real as a shield in interacting with them You have daily encounters with people and your decision to view the possibility of it being true as being more likely than the possibility of it being untrue shapes the resulting outcome, which is you feeling negative about your day to day experiences because you're stifling your emotional experience by cutting yourself off from the outset solutions have been offered among them is to accept and come to peace with that uncertainty the truth of the matter is that "you" will never know whether it is true or false "your" heart will never be exposed to it you are postulating that the world goes away when you die -- by what metric can you expect to be able to experience the truth of what the world does on the other side of it? so, out of your fear of some sort of loneliness after this life you are cutting off any opportunity to avoid loneliness during this life this is the problem of fear with regards to humans as intention manifesting beings if your intention is replaced by your fear, you manifest your fear
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Dream Weaver Registered: 08/17/14 Posts: 12,468 Loc: South |
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"I mean picking something just because it's helpful to you sounds like confirmation bias and lying to yourself."
Such is life. Pick wisely. -------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Bodhi Registered: 08/16/16 Posts: 26,731 Loc: The Primordial Mind |
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We all have to trust that at times other people know better.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
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Quote: Sure, it sounds like that because that is what you are being advised to do you already extensively use confirmation bias and lying to yourself about the reality of solipsism which leaves you feeling negative about the life you live all you are being advised to do is to change the system you are doing that for the difference with picking one that is helpful is that it will get you out of the endless patterns of negative thought that the unhelpful one you have chosen is promoting
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Stranger Registered: 01/19/15 Posts: 2,770 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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Quote: It’s not fear of loneliness after this life, it’s the fear of loneliness in THIS life. How can you make peace with the uncertainty? With rolling the dice with every interaction? I am afraid of having to live in some kind of purgatory with no one else there. I live in fear that it might be true, that evidence will come up, that maybe it’s true and I’m living a lie. I mean if you don’t have evidence of something existing then isn’t it logical to behave as though it doesn’t? Even if I did get over this there isn’t anything waiting for me after the fact, plenty of other things I have read squashed that: https://www.popmatters.com/cons Too many scars from everything I’ve been exposed to for me to function of I make it out of this. -------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Sage Registered: 09/11/18 Posts: 1,288 Last seen: 5 days, 7 hours |
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uh, as soon as i opened that link i got a firewall warning. that right there is a red flag that you probably should avoid listening to that site.
for another, there's no way of proving it. therefore evidence WON'T come up. period. so no, it's not logical to behave as if evidence will come up, because there won't be any evidence coming. ever. it's an unprovable, just like waiting for 2 + 2 to = 321542331. the math simply does not work out that way. the best way to get over it? maybe try looking at how silly you're being, and laugh. even if you don't feel like laughing. laugh anyways. hear how awful you sound. laugh at how awful that laugh sounds. repeat until suddenly the ridiculousness of the situation finally starts to become amusing, at which point the fears grip starts to break a bit. maybe it won't break right away, maybe it will... but what you feel is irrational and emotional. try using its opposite emotion to break its hold. anyways, i recently came across an article mentioning how there was a real life "Lord of the Flies" situation, where some teenage boys got stranded for over a year on an island about 50 years ago with no grown-ups. how did it go? turns out they worked together in harmony, creating a chores list, making a guitar out of available materials and singing songs, helping one boy who broke a leg when he was injured to recover, and eventually they all were rescued whole and healthy and pretty well off. turns out the author of the "Lord of the Flies" was a pretty depressed and messed up guy. goes to show you that humanity has more going for it than we give it credit for, especially the innocence of youth. perhaps it is society's failings to blame for our current woes, not some innate fault of the human race itself.
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Registered: 08/09/19 Posts: 1,936 Loc: North EU Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours |
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Thanatos said: "I am afraid of having to live in some kind of purgatory with no one else there. I live in fear that it might be true, that evidence will come up, that maybe it’s true and I’m living a lie. I mean if you don’t have evidence of something existing then isn’t it logical to behave as though it doesn’t?"
So what's the evidence for the purgatory and what is the evidence for something existing? Ever weigh these two? You live in fear, that's right. You know you really lack the ability to take a different perspective for some reason. I bet it is because you are depressed. You cannot assess the situation from different view points. You can' tthink positively of your situation. Say this purgatory for example. What a fucking paradise for a purgatory if you look around. I mean, go take a hike or trip to nature and just be. Some fucking purgatory this is. But you go "what if it's true, I can't think of anything else". That's an obsession and you can't let go of the fear. You are afraid of fear and loneliness which has you trapped. Look those motherfuckers in the eye and say "bring it on".
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Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
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Quote: And the only way you suspect you are going to be able to confirm that level of lonelines is after this life so you are actively avoiding making connections during this life, for fear that you will find out after this life that they were false as stated, your fear is manifesting that reality already -- you are living in a constant state of loneliness because you fear loneliness Quote: This is about the only site that I feel comfortable making this response take more mushrooms Quote: This is interesting, because you paint this fear using language (ie: "purgatory") that indicates that you are afraid of loneliness after this life rather than during this life Quote: This is a case-sensitive answer, but for your case, the answer is no you don't have evidence of things not existing, but you behave in a fearful manner as tho such evidence will come up the logical way to behave would be a detatched manner, neither fearful nor exicited that evidence will come up to prove you right or to prove you wrong you are behaving a certain way because you are believing a certain way; you seem to be constantly in a "Flight" response prepared for challenging circumstances Quote: My virus scanner is blocking that site, so you may wish to run a deep scan with your own virus scanner to make sure it has not given you something unfortunately this means not being able to read what you are referring to unless you are willing to quote the content in question however, the terminology of recognition that there is not anything waiting for you after the fact again poses the question of how you suspect to discover that your lived experience was anything other than as real as it felt while you lived through it Quote: You call them scars, but they are excuses. They are not on your body for the world to see, they are on your mind for you to look back at. I have scars all over my arms that mean that my dream of one day wearing a pretty sleeveless wedding dress has been killed by my continually giving in to depression in my younger years of disbelief that anyone else existed I don't want my future wife to have to see my shoulder saying "Reject" on the day she accepts me more deeply than ever before but this just means having to alter my dream because of my past mistakes, it does not mean that dream goes out the window a sleeved wedding gown fitted to my form may arguably give me a more regal appearance
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Registered: 08/09/19 Posts: 1,936 Loc: North EU Last seen: 7 days, 5 hours |
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What up Thanatos10. I was thinking about you today, how could I help you, because I understood your perspective, your problem if even for a little while
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Stranger Registered: 01/19/15 Posts: 2,770 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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Honestly that virus scan shouldn’t be an issue but whatever, here’s a few lines from the link:
Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: -------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Miss Ann Thrope Registered: 03/26/12 Posts: 17,138 Loc: Lashed to the py |
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thank you for the quotes
unfortunately this opens a new can of worms for me in not being able to well respond to Ligotti's positions through the lens of what seems to be a book review more than an essay about meaning drawing from his points but can definitely say the book has been added to my wishlist as an awesome bonus, you have made me aware of where one of the characters from one of the D&D campaigns I watch named his tentacle familiar ![]() K'thriss Drow'b is a Dark Elf Sorcerer with a tentacle as his familiar the tentacle is named Ligotti -- and as the work described discusses a dissection of Lovecraft's literature, and he himself was a horror writer it most certainly plays into his own Lovecraftian character influences ![]() do agree with the core point of his work as seems to be expressed tho -- but do you? it is perfectly acceptable to find comfort in depression, if indeed that is what the human organism seeks to do many artists put themselves through periods of withdrawal or abuse in order to facillitate creativity from the depression he talks about how the book taken as a whole is liberating -- do you feel liberated by the review? do you feel liberated or trapped when you examine where you presently are? if you want to argue for this, then by all means follow it but you seem to be here looking for an answer to get away from this; so, why choose to follow the depression path? explore any mind state you feel you can potentially provide a form of reward Ligotti apparently churned a fairly well-regarded book out of his experiences
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Sage Registered: 09/11/18 Posts: 1,288 Last seen: 5 days, 7 hours |
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Tantrika - if your future wife really accepts you for what you are, she would accept you, past, present and future, scars of the past included. those scars are a part of what shaped you - so don't hide them, they are a part of what made you, you! a part of why she loves you!
I'd say keep to your dream and accept your past - and reject any naysayers and your own doubts. the past is past - so what if you made a mistake in the past? we all make mistakes. it's the here and now, the future you're forging that matters. you don't see people saying an old gnarly oak is hideous because it's got a few twisted branches or missing stubs, do you? no, we say it's Majestic, or Awe-inspiring. We look at rugged mountains for inspiration, to nature with its imperfections... and admire it, imperfections and all, because those imperfections pale in comparison to the grand beauty that they merely highlight. You have nothing to fear from those scars. Your future wife would be seeing those scars every day anyways - hiding them in shame on such a big day would only emphasize that feeling of shame. stand proud, because you have nothing to be ashamed of anymore! It's a big day for anyone! ![]() And Thanatos, i used to have a lot of fear about the afterlife before I tripped. not anymore. I used to be all about that logic and couldn't get people who worshiped god. after that first trip... i understand now. i still am a logical person by nature... but i realize that there really is more than one kind of knowledge. some things really are felt with the heart, not with the mind. that said, does your family have any history of schizophrenia or psychosis? psychedelics might possibly be a bad idea if so for you, since it can hasten the inevitable psychotic break if you're already on the verge of breaking, usually by about a year. though i'm not sure if psychedelics are a danger for people who suffer from this kind of problem... id imagine it would be a boon if anything, helping to reconnect. seems more like it's arising from possible depression if anything, maybe a fear of the afterlife/unknown like i did, stuck in thought loops... things psychedelics are amazing at breaking you out of temporarily and giving you a fresh perspective on. oh yes. and if solipsism is real, how the heck are we able to perform mind melds? we're actually able to connect two peoples minds and "send" information from one brain to another. you can't do that if there's only one mind! besides, why are you so concerned about you being some brain in a jar somewhere when your brains in a bony encasement in a fleshy jar anyways? it's just a jar by another name anyways. you're a brain in a squishy jar by another name. there. you get your brain in a jar. we're all brains in a jar! now go play with the other brains in a jar and make friends already!
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