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CountHTML
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: laughingdog]
#26669785 - 05/14/20 01:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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They’re considered “bad” because most people do not think for themselves and believe things they’re told without personal experience.
Psychedelics are coming back, in terms of acceptability. But the price of the lost culture war has been enormous.
To give you an idea of how extensive the confusion is, I had a graduate student of psychology tell me once that LSD creates holes in your brain and stays in your spine for the rest of your life.
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laughingdog
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: CountHTML]
#26670380 - 05/14/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps you just added what seemed important or obvious to yourself,
but if it was actually meant as a reply, I fail to see how it elucidates any of the the points I raised:
"Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal?
Why are people irrational? Why are 99% of governments corrupt? Why do 99% of governments/nations/civilizations have armies & go to war? But not hunter gatherers? Why are native people ok with entheogens ?"
"Many good answers here, basically the same reason why everything else is backwards."
"If the whole society is FUBAR, it would be unreasonable to expect the attitude towards psychedelics, to be an exception."
end of my points
. And as you say: "They’re considered “bad” because most people do not think for themselves and believe things they’re told without personal experience." and that is of course one of the reasons why the "the whole (US) society is FUBAR"; but only one. . Other minor factors are that it was founded by slave holders, proceeded to commit genocide, and pretended it was a democracy, while it has mistreated blacks, women and children for over 200 years. . Its been rotten from the beginning and has never stopped. It has the highest incarceration rate of any country on the planet, a pathetic infant mortality rate for a rich country, 600 to 800 military bases world wide, outsources torture, denies climate change, kills folks in other countries remotely by drone, tortures immigrants, ... the list could go on for quite a while, one just has to adapt the mindset of a detective or reporter, instead of someone employed to make nice Hallmark cards for every occasion. . The majority of folks living in such a shabby moral environment, are eventually affected by it, on some level, and many are deeply scarred. Seemingly rationality does not go along with the level of denial that is necessary to appear normal, or fit in comfortably with average folks, in such a culture. . Some countries are even worse, and some are better, but generally the further away from native and tribal life one gets, the worse it gets. IMO
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: laughingdog]
#26670590 - 05/14/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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There are no hunter-gatherer societies any longer and Alice is a fictionalized version of Alice Liddell. No answers here. Consciousness and it's fraction that we call reason is sorely lacking in modern humanity. I was shocked and dismayed to see some 40% of Americans who voted support an obvious mad man.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26671903 - 05/15/20 03:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe, as Mr. would so often say, it's due to "boundary dissolution".
Psychs destroy mental paradigms that society is built upon. Conspiracy theories aside, that component causes a lot of breakdown that would destroy a lot of useful things, as much as it would help things - for a bit, anyway, IMHO. Add to this other issues with people who aren't ready for this shit ingesting it on a whim, and you have a clusterfuck!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26672187 - 05/15/20 08:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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behold the clusterfuck!
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Yellow Pants



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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26672567 - 05/15/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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All hail McKenna. All hail McKenna.
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Kmacmo
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26672647 - 05/15/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
CountHTML said: They’re considered “bad” because most people do not think for themselves and believe things they’re told without personal experience.
Yeah I think this is a huge factor, and can be applied to lots of things not just shrooms. Just easyer to be told what's good and bad rather than the effort of figuring it out yourself.
Natives and tribal people rely on mother nature, totally dependant on it. Where as the governments what switch your dependency from nature to being dependant on the government instead... That way they control you. Nature provides us everything we need, they just bottle it up and a sell it to us... Dont want people being able to help them self's for free everything has to be bought... Survival is bought.
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: I believe, as Mr. would so often say, it's due to "boundary dissolution".
Psychs destroy mental paradigms that society is built upon. Conspiracy theories aside, that component causes a lot of breakdown that would destroy a lot of useful things, as much as it would help things - for a bit, anyway, IMHO. Add to this other issues with people who aren't ready for this shit ingesting it on a whim, and you have a clusterfuck!
I agree, it would send the whole machine into chaos, everyone starting to relize that they can think for themselves and when the people start thinking this is bad for the man in charge.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: MarkostheGnostic] 2
#26672974 - 05/15/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The human being has narrowed specializations that involve narrowed states of consciousness: soldier, policeman, bureaucrat, cardiologist, dentist, etc. Most of these professions are the consequence of having a population that hurts itself through degrading patterns of consumption, junk food, pills, sedentary habits.... these low states of consciousness lead to the degeneration and sickness that then prompts the various professions and specializations.
"Information is not just sitting there. It is very powerful, and thought in general is very powerful. It has produced everything - farmland, industry, governments, religions, schools, technology and science, it has produced everything you see. It's almost impossible to find a part of the world that has not been influenced by thought.
The whole process of thought doesn't want to acknowledge this. Thought says, "we've got to grow." and thought says, "we've got to get rid of the consequences of growth.", which means, "we've got to grow without consequences." [David Bohm: results you don't want]
-------------------- C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know." "I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti "All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26675896 - 05/16/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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We all know what psychedelics do on various levels. It was my generation that 'believed' that they were going to change the world: from the Beatles to Leary, Alpert & Metzner, Ken Kesey et al., psychedelic subculture and many of its artists and musicians, the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, and many reputable scientists and researcher included. Change did happen, but not to the macro-culture. I mean psychedelic poster shops in Morristown, NJ or Bleeker & McDougal in NYC's East Village did not remain past 1969 or 1970. The Beatles clothes didn't remain at the Sgt. Pepper's phase and bell bottom jeans eventually vanished along with black light and blacklight posters. In the mid 1970s I remember long hair being coifed, clog shoes for men replacing moccasins and sandals, and most poignantly of all perhaps, simple colorful strings of love beads were replaced by gold-plated razor blades as disco pushed out acid rock and cocaine-crazed money-culture ousted psychedelia and its idealism as the dominant youth culture.
But, Bill Gates took acid, Steve Jobs took acid, Francis Crick envisioned a double helix while on acid and showed us what DNA is like. When some rare individuals who already have a gift psychedelics can amplify that gift. It's not for everyone as not everyone has a gift to enhance. Although it doesn't compare to the earlier examples, on June 12, 1970 Pittsburgh Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter game against the San Diego Padres while tripping, a feat never to be repeated since. My old townie friend Ray made some money shooting pool at some NJ bar while on acid because he could visualize the lines of incidence and reflectance on the pool table. Hardly worth a mention except to make the point that psychedelics can and do enhance individuals even amongst the humble, but it is the nature of the individuals that in turn creates change. To wit, Microsoft, Apple, and DNA are enormous change-agents on a global and historical scale.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26676295 - 05/17/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: When some rare individuals who already have a gift psychedelics can amplify that gift. It's not for everyone as not everyone has a gift to enhance.
I absolutely 100% agree with this statement.
The implications of this are also vast, as well as obvious (not in a derogatory sense at all, mind you; just plain as day once you can "see" it) IMHO.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26676422 - 05/17/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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true
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Ancient Mariner
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26677943 - 05/17/20 11:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The way I see it, there are several reasons. The main ones are that... 1. Shrooms are difficult to make a profit off of. they grow everywhere, cannot be patented like pharmaceuticals, and if they were accepted in society, people would wake up to the commercialized atmosphere and the suffering that results from it. They would not perpetuate exploitation of labor and animal cruelty because they would have more empathy. 2. Individuals who react negatively, from my point of view, do so because they are afraid of losing control over Nature. Not that doing mushrooms makes you lose this control; on the contrary, it can give you more freedom as you sync up with Nature. These individuals who fear the mushroom tend to like to go through life according to plan. This is just my generalization of them. I don't view them negatively. Only different. And shrooms can be scary for anyone; some find it worth it though. 3. I think they are illegal now where I live because of the culture war and elites seeking to continue their reign. This could very well be driven by capitalist impulse. Again, main reason #1: Laws of Western society seem very driven by profits. Shrooms are not addictive and are easy and cheap to grow, so not much money in that. Plus, shroomers generally find value in nonmaterial things. Whether it's intellect, spirit, wisdom, or social connection, these are all free.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: Ancient Mariner]
#26678420 - 05/18/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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yes culture war and mental slavery. it's tribal suppression (enacted through laws - supposedly democratic) especially of lower, enslaved, or conquered classes (even long after they have been emancipated).
our mnds are supposedly on parole, i.e. we are free only if we are not free
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laughingdog
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26681630 - 05/19/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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. It is convenient to blame society, or most societies, for our problems, and assume we are free of its worst & most egregious follies.
. I wonder from time to time, if the smartest folks didn't leave the US (& some other repressive Nations) long ago & become expatriates.
. Because many have stayed and probably desired a comfortable life, they continue to have hope, and vote for political candidates they think will improve things. That this may be, in some ways, a little similar to switching to low tar cigarettes, does not occur to them. Hence as things go downhill continually over the decades, they wonder why. And are surprised by each new downward step.
. Those who don't need a weatherman, needn't try to have an explanation, for every downward step. The deeper causes seem embarrassingly obvious. . Meanwhile others join the army, navy, or marines, to get out of bad life situations, or afford an education and come home with PTSD, missing limbs & so on. . Mushroom legislation & attitudes seem the tip of the iceberg, IMO. Though on the other hand of course its all connected.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: laughingdog]
#26681834 - 05/19/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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this thread is about that iceberg tip pushing mushrooms down
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laughingdog
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26681849 - 05/19/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: this thread is about that iceberg tip pushing mushrooms down
sounds like you want to be a moderator.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: laughingdog]
#26682608 - 05/20/20 05:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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are moderators poets that bind sheafs into bundles?
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laughingdog
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26683039 - 05/20/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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monitor lizards seem synchronous with this quote from Cory Duchesne
"People seem good while they are oppressed, but they only wish to become oppressors in their turn: life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." – Bertrand Russell, Letter to Ottoline Morrell, 17 December, 1920
anyway, as if it mattered, tips don't push icebergs down. buoyancy definition: "the upward force that a fluid exerts on an object less dense than itself." or "buoyancy = weight of displaced fluid." and the tip displaces no water. So the opposite is the case: the part that is submerged determines the size of the tip. So its not even a good metaphor.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: laughingdog]
#26683059 - 05/20/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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excuse me, try this A. measure how much is submerged. B. remove tip. c. measure how much is still submerged. A=B+C (Archimedes principle)
this completely contradicts what you just posted, but you expected that right?!
the more tip you have the more deeply the berg is submerged. no tip at all, no submergence. no berg.
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laughingdog
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Re: Why are shrooms seen as 'bad' by society, and why are they illegal? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26683333 - 05/20/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The key is that "Water is unusual in that its maximum density occurs as a liquid, rather than as a solid. This means ice floats on water." or more accurately in water. As the tip is a smaller fraction of the total weight of the ice, it contributes less to the level at which the ice floats. About 89.46% is below the 'water line'. This displacement of the water provides the lifting power. The weight of the 10.54% above water contributes little. It is of course a combination of factors, but to claim that the tip is the controlling or repressive factor is clearly a distortion. If the tip is removed the ice berg will rise and a new small bit now called a "tip" will be created, so the old tip was unable to keep it down to any great degree, rather it is the differential in density between ice and water, that is the controlling factor, and not the weight of the ice per se.
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