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OfflineHagbardCeline
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I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation
    #26668786 - 05/13/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

https://lexfridman.com/roger-penrose/


Because of the high energies particles experienced near the time of the big bang is it possible that the uniformity of time dilation in the "universe" could account for inflation?

EDIT - If everything in the universe at that time was travelling near the speed of light, then everything in the universe at that time was experiencing time at a much slower rate.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (05/13/20 03:35 PM)


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Offlinesinglet_oxygen
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just m [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #26677065 - 05/17/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'm kind of struggling to wrap my head around what you're saying.

But maybe this will help; we don't measure that inflation in terms of "time" really. But the homogeneity of the universe.

When the universe was very tiny and expanded quantum effects like the uncertainty principle imprinted on the universe a uneven spread of energy.

There were dense parts of space-time with more matter/energy, and parts with sparser amounts of matter/energy.

The slower the universe expanded the more evenly this would have distributed and the universe should be homogeneous.

But it's not homogeneous and the only way we can explain is that it expanded too fast for the energy to spread out.

It's very important to say that it's not that stuff was moving away from other stuff fast. It's points of space-time moving away from each other

The classic analogy of bowling balls on a rubber sheet. It's not that the balls are moving away form each other, but the sheet is expanding

I'll have to think about what you've asked a bit, but maybe the above helps.

The universe isn't expanding cause matter is moving into non-universe. It's that the universe is getting bigger.


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: HagbardCeline] * 1
    #26735672 - 06/10/20 10:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
https://lexfridman.com/roger-penrose/


Because of the high energies particles experienced near the time of the big bang is it possible that the uniformity of time dilation in the "universe" could account for inflation?

EDIT - If everything in the universe at that time was travelling near the speed of light, then everything in the universe at that time was experiencing time at a much slower rate.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what Einstein's theory of relativity says?

singlet_oxygen, nicely worded. Another simple way to understand inflation is to get a balloon, draw two dots on it relatively close to each other then blow up the balloon. The dots aren't moving away from each other, it is the space between them that is expanding.


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The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: wolfiewolfie]
    #26758015 - 06/19/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I get that I may have been unclear, but I know everything that both of you posted. 

Yes, that is what Einstein said, in as far as relativety is concerned and that is part of my point. I realize that inflation involves the exapansion of space as well.                                                                                                                                 

The idea of inflation is much like dark matter and dark energy in that we use it as an explation for our observations but we don't understand the actual mechanism behind it. These terms are basically place holders encompasing a variety of theories that attempt to explain that actual mechanism. Inflation became necessary when we saw how smooth and even the background radiation was. Rapid and massive growth became the workable idea to explain it.

So why would the universe have expanded faster in the beginning?

Yes, space expanded too, but set that aside for the moment. I know I remember something about General or Special relativity saying there are no overall reference frames, but does that also apply to early universe? If space expanded then chances are that we exist in a part of space that was not here at the beginning. If I could retain the same position in space as the universe is now and rewind the universe, shouldn't it eventually get small enough that I can observe it as a growing bubble?

Now imagine what it would be like from the bubble's perspective, my space and particles are all expanding so quickly that there is no reference frame in existence that could possibly experience time as we do now. Every reference frame experiences time moving at a much slower rate in this universe. This lasted until there were enough intereactions to cause the particles to lose energy and group together introducing competing gravitational fields that further slow the particles until we find ourselves experiencing time at the rate we consider normal. So from the rate we experience time, when we look back, it looks like that somehow in the early universe that it expanded faster than should have been possible.

But what if there were a overall reference frame that was relative to the majority of possible reference frames for any given universe - stated another way, what if the universe used a moving average of possible reference frames to determined the passage of time for the entire universe? Local reference frames could still occur near black holes, etc., but those would then be dependent on that overall moving average. The only time our universe could have a drastically different overall average time rate would then have been at the beginning.

So we look back and see what appears from our perspective to have expanded really big, really quickly. But could it appear that way because while it expanded at the near the speed light we are looking at it from a reference frame that experiences time much more rapidly. If I'm going at light speed, I will travel great distances while experiencing time in way that makes it appear to have happened instantly to me but perhaps thousands or even millions of years to those watching my ship from earth. Could we be looking at the CMB and thinking it expanded faster than it should have when it was actually expanding just as fast as would be expected? If the rate of expansion was actually at the maximum or expected rate but time was slower relative to now, could it just be that more distance was covered not because the stuff moved faster, but that time went slower relative to now.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinesinglet_oxygen
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #26759170 - 06/20/20 05:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Okay, I get that I may have been unclear, but I know everything that both of you posted. 

Yes, that is what Einstein said, in as far as relativety is concerned and that is part of my point. I realize that inflation involves the exapansion of space as well.                                                                                                                                 

The idea of inflation is much like dark matter and dark energy in that we use it as an explation for our observations but we don't understand the actual mechanism behind it. These terms are basically place holders encompasing a variety of theories that attempt to explain that actual mechanism. Inflation became necessary when we saw how smooth and even the background radiation was. Rapid and massive growth became the workable idea to explain it.





Dark Energy is the cause of inflation in many models.

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
So why would the universe have expanded faster in the beginning?

Yes, space expanded too, but set that aside for the moment. I know I remember something about General or Special relativity saying there are no overall reference frames, but does that also apply to early universe? If space expanded then chances are that we exist in a part of space that was not here at the beginning. If I could retain the same position in space as the universe is now and rewind the universe, shouldn't it eventually get small enough that I can observe it as a growing bubble?





Not this isn't correct, "new space" has not been made, the same way blowing up a balloon doesn't make "new balloon". There is not one reference frame but the frame of the CMB is pretty good.

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Now imagine what it would be like from the bubble's perspective, my space and particles are all expanding so quickly that there is no reference frame in existence that could possibly experience time as we do now. Every reference frame experiences time moving at a much slower rate in this universe. This lasted until there were enough intereactions to cause the particles to lose energy and group together introducing competing gravitational fields that further slow the particles until we find ourselves experiencing time at the rate we consider normal. So from the rate we experience time, when we look back, it looks like that somehow in the early universe that it expanded faster than should have been possible.





  • In relativity space and time are treated the same, if your theory gives time some special significance then it's not compatible with relativity.

  • There is no "wrong" experience of time.

  • The "explosive" high speed movement of particles is _not_ inflation. Again inflation is more like a shrinking ruler where on big regions of space seem to be expanding.


Quote:

HagbardCeline said:

But what if there were a overall reference frame that was relative to the majority of possible reference frames for any given universe - stated another way, what if the universe used a moving average of possible reference frames to determined the passage of time for the entire universe? Local reference frames could still occur near black holes, etc., but those would then be dependent on that overall moving average. The only time our universe could have a drastically different overall average time rate would then have been at the beginning.

So we look back and see what appears from our perspective to have expanded really big, really quickly. But could it appear that way because while it expanded at the near the speed light we are looking at it from a reference frame that experiences time much more rapidly. If I'm going at light speed, I will travel great distances while experiencing time in way that makes it appear to have happened instantly to me but perhaps thousands or even millions of years to those watching my ship from earth. Could we be looking at the CMB and thinking it expanded faster than it should have when it was actually expanding just as fast as would be expected? If the rate of expansion was actually at the maximum or expected rate but time was slower relative to now, could it just be that more distance was covered not because the stuff moved faster, but that time went slower relative to now.




No again, we measure the movement of parts of space based on the CMB, in terms of homogeneity.





I think you're still hung up on thinking that inflation was a feature of matter or particles. It's not it's a feature of space-time.

To play fast and loose, and describe the history of the subject, with it matter/energy makes space-time contract this means two pieces of matter/energy separated by space-time seem to come together. This is gravitation in relativity. Einstein's theory can only allow for contraction of the universe in it's raw form. But Einstein believed the universe was steady-state(or static) the same size indefinitely.

Einstein fudged this by adding a "cosmological constant" to his theory. An intrinsic pushing out of space-time, like a pressure. He called this his "greatest blunder" and regretted it. Kicking himself for doing so.

But from the CMB we can tell space-time was in fact spreading. That while matter/energy can only shrink space-time we needed something to spread it.

Soon astronomers discovered a sign that there was some energy in the universe unaccounted for. One they couldn't see and so was "dark", one that added a "pressure" to space-time giving it a tendency to expand (only on large scales).

So by analogy they named this "dark energy".


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: singlet_oxygen]
    #26793679 - 06/30/20 04:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

HagbardCeline, I pretty much agree with everything you have said and from what I can gather you understand what you talk about (which is rather rare on the internetz these days).

My only criticism is that you are asking too many questions at once. If you had to summerize both of your posts into a single question, what would it be?

I look forward to attempting an answer :smile:


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: singlet_oxygen]
    #26808376 - 07/07/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I think you're still hung up on thinking that inflation was a feature of matter or particles.




Then take it up with Roger Penrose. Listen to that podcast and tell him he was wrong. If space was moving then the particles in space are moving as well.

Regardless, no one is even addressing my point I've been trying to make and I'm not interested enough anymore to keep trying to explain it.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (07/07/20 07:52 AM)


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: singlet_oxygen]
    #26811811 - 07/08/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I do want to add though that I appreciate the attempts to answer my question. Maybe I'll make another attempt with more specific vocabulary.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Invisiblewolfiewolfie
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Re: I'm listening this podcast with Roger Penrose and he just made me think of something about inflation [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #26822393 - 07/14/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
I do want to add though that I appreciate the attempts to answer my question. Maybe I'll make another attempt with more specific vocabulary.



I look forward to seeing it :smile:


--------------------


The only reason why T-rex's can't walk backwards is because they're extinct, which perfectly explains why there are no headaches in the rainforest; The parrots eat 'em all.

My Drawings


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