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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #26667070 - 05/12/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Could I stop you from going out and picking shrooms during a stay at home order? Did you get sick and die? What was your excuse? "Oh I socially distanced anyway." That is what all the people who want to go out and eat at restaurants are saying. They have their reason and you had yours.





You appear to not be seeing the fundamental differences between the two activities you mentioned, because if you did then you wouldn't say something so foolish.

1. Picking shrooms is done outdoors in the woods.  There are very little people in the woods usually.  It is an open environment; wind carries particles away quickly.
2. Eating at restaurant is done indoors in a closed environment; this means particles in the air linger way longer than the outside.

Obviously, your chance of getting the virus outdoors if you're socially distancing is basically zero.
Your chance of getting the virus in a closed environment if you're socially distancing is wayyyyyy higher than zero.




I like how you quoted just a small portion of what I said


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: imachavel]
    #26667086 - 05/12/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
we might have had tens of thousands of cases by early march :shrug: to assume that  wasnt the case you'd have to extrapolate from CFR estimates, but that's like.. the opposite of how those stats work. If the CFR proves to be something more like 0.6% which is what the original south korean epidemiological survey indicated then the actual number of people who have gotten COVID19 is far greater than the number that have been diagnosed




Which means less of a mortality rate. Not at all downplaying the tragedy of those who have died. Just saying on the plus side much less people will have to die. Which is good for 2 reasons:

1) the economy can open back up sooner with less fear of tragedy

2) well.... Less deaths equal less tragedy which equals less deaths which equals less tragedy which equals less deaths and less tragedy. The explanation could not be any more straight forward. The benefit of less tragedy is less tragedy. And the benefit of that is less tragedy. So what would Trump or Fauci or CNN think? Who cares. Less tragedy is better. Who gives a fuck what they think. Some people get up and argue over this all day. With their friends. Like the presidents opinion is going to save my life.

Fuck the president. My side of the argument is not Democratic or Republican. My side is less tragedy. Such a good thing why even argue?

Not directing this at anyone in general. Just saying



Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Less deaths equal less tragedy which equals less deaths which equals less tragedy which equals less deaths and less tragedy. The explanation could not be any more straight forward.




Circular logic is hardly straightforward

We already know how many people die with a mostly closed economy. Mortality rate is totally irrelevant to figuring out what happens if you start to reopen with 20,000 cases a day when we closed down at 1/10th that number

Look at the states with the highest rate of case growth. Tennessee. Iowa. Georgia. It’s gonna get ugly




Could I stop you from going out and picking shrooms during a stay at home order? Did you get sick and die? What was your excuse? "Oh I socially distanced anyway." That is what all the people who want to go out and eat at restaurants are saying. They have their reason and you had yours. All the death statistics in the world did not stop this. You did it anyway.

You know why? Under the constitution of The United States as an adult in this country you are free to go outside and make your own decisions. Now someone else is free to stay indoors and continue to collect unemployment. As far as I know.

Am I contradicting something here?




Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

That is what all the people who want to go out and eat at restaurants are saying.


this is intentionally obtuse, being indoors and being outdoors are totally different situations. all the evidence shows its safe to be in an uncrowded outdoor area




:rolleyes: omg you guys change your story every week to whatever suits you. 2 weeks ago all the protestors were being called murderers for being in large groups outside. Now restaurants want to have people inside but at great distance from each other and "the facts show" that it is much more harmful then being outside.

So little is known about this disease even the extremely effective vaccines that are being produced cannot be produced in large quantities and there are several out there and even one they are using in Wuhan China. With such little known how do we know 6 feet is safe distance with a mask? Who released that information the CDC? NO! Anyone from the CDC that visits a hospital goes in a full body suit full hazmat totally isolated inside their suit for any outside contaminents. I am not even talking about for corona virus. For any unknown disease. You know where I learned that? An episode of House M.D.

Lol cmon you think this is standard protocol? I am not vouching for restaurant owners I am vouching for people who are against those who say to follow stay at home orders and do not even stay at home. They go outside like Koods picking mushrooms. Like when Cuomo released statistics showing more people staying at home are getting this then people going outside.

How do we know this thing is not so airborne it could pick up on a gust of wind and blow a few miles where Koods is outside picking mushrooms all by himself and he thinks its all good then gets unintentionally sick and gets others sick around him? They told him to stay inside. He went outside anyway. Against the government protesting it. Yet he himself disagrees with those wanting to take risks and go outside endangering people regardless of the order.

So what difference is it between that and people who want to go to work? People are tired of not having money and need money. They want people in restaurants. They want people to come in as customers. A lot of people are not taking a lockdown seriously because even the people who claim they are taking the lockdown seriously are not and are defying their own logic. If you believe those socialising are putting people at risk then you yourself should not be socialising. At all. Its hypocritical. It is asking others to do something you do not want to do.

Sorry to be abrupt like this. But a felt a confident response was needed to defend myself from the obtuse comment :shrug:

You should expect of others what you expect of yourself as well. Not everyone works in a hospital like you do. There are those not seeing these directly that claim like a hospital worker the consequences can be deadly then they go out and directly contradict their own advice. It wears down on people after awhile





So stay at home means stay at home right? It means don't be outside. The argument against people not following the rules and making up what is healthy and not healthy it what I see people claiming is irrational pack behavior threatening others.

If there is a problem with malfunctioning ovens blowing up in the US and people see others using their ovens regardless and they get upset about it should they be turning on their toaster ovens? With the logic like "how unlikely such a small device I stand so far away from will blow up and if it does the explosion will be so small even standing near it will almost surely not hurt me." With logic like that why would anyone listen to those who feel something is dangerous?

Many do not feel they are in the age range or have previous conditions which will put them at serious risk if they contract this disease. Many feel that staying 6 feet apart and generally wearing a mask will stop the spread. Even beyond that many think its their health and their decision to decide their risks and freedom. Even beyond that many think even if they get it it and die from it other people can distance themselves from the masses by staying at home themselves. Therefore if I go out and get it you do not have to have contact with me and therefore it will not effect you if I do get it.


But others are saying this is stupid. Orders were given. Follow the orders and those who do not go to jail for my safety. So its not my argument to stay inside. Its someone elses. But if this person was given an order to stay inside and broke the order why should he criticise others? The order was not to "stay inside but if you want to pick shrooms go out all you want as long as you are like a few hundred feet from anyone you see." What if he went out and touched a tree someone with covid had touched and he did not see them doing it but the tree has particles on it and then he touches the tree then touches his face? Is that part of the deal?

No the deal is many many Democrats are highly against people going outside unless it is 100% necessary and think the world should be locked down until the cases go down to 0. So what am I not understanding here? Is it contradicting or not? If I go to a restaurant and sit down and order a meal am I hurting you? If you follow orders and stay inside it should not hurt you at all. That is my argument.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: imachavel]
    #26667088 - 05/12/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm pissed ok and I want to know why. Either we dodged a major bullet an this thing spread way further and faster and earlier than anybody knew about cuz thats how it works or I want to know why I'm pissed ppl get paid large salaries to tell us what going on during this and then when the situation happens they go derp we have know idea whats going on. I mean if someone has alot of money in the market in some peoples view that give you the right to murder them and this is America nobody cares how much money u have ppl dont give a fuck. Thats straight dangerous for society. Get it together


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 2
    #26667139 - 05/12/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26667151 - 05/12/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

my mother inlaw thinks she has corona. went to her dr and he gave her antibiotics and said call me every day if you feel worse than we'll do the covid test.

why not just test now? she lives in upper middle class northern va. she got that dough:money:


Edited by mushboy (05/12/20 06:24 PM)


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #26667188 - 05/12/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think the problem is that most people live in areas that, for a variety of reasons, didn't have an early and rapid spread like the cities in NY/NJ/MA and elsewhere. Lots of areas will now get to understand what that's like once things reopen. Luckily they now have had the advanced prep time to stock up on PPE and medical supplies and see what's worked elsewhere in the country, and many people will still avoid unnecessary exposure and hopefully wear their masks and wash their hands.

There's a podcast for Boston Public Radio that gives good insight on what went on during the outbreak here. It's not a democrat/republican thing, we have a republican governor and he's the one being super gradual about the reopening, with a phased out plan based upon the numbers and focusing on testing and contact tracing.

Things spread so quickly here in Boston that people were already leaving their work, restaurants were empty, workers were afraid to commute on public transport, colleges were closing, all a week or more before stay at home recommendations were made. Hundreds of hospital workers began getting sick right as things were getting shut down. No shutdown would've led to disaster.

It"s not an either or thing with health/life or the economy, if things were left open it would've effectively shut down our economy anyway. No shutdown would've meant no federal assistance for all the restaurants and other small businesses that were no longer doing any business because people were staying home. That would cause layoffs and no federal unemployment for those workers, leaving even less money circulating and businesses needing to pay out tons in unemployment. Fauci alluded to that today but people who didn't experience a surge don't want to try to understand what the situation would've realistically looked like.

Even in Sweden bars and some other businesses were shutdown, gatherings were limited to 50 or fewer, restaurants could only operate at half capacity, a large portion of the population was staying home following government recommendations, and all the same recommendations and public health practices as here were issued. Their death rate is bad, and their economy took a huge hit and unemployment is rising also. That's without even considering all the huge differences between the US and Sweden.

The fact that so many people are complaining was one of the outcomes public health experts expected if the shutdown did what it was supposed to, and flattened the curve. Things definitely weren't done perfectly, but it was a lose-lose situation from the start.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: imachavel]
    #26667198 - 05/12/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Less deaths equal less tragedy which equals less deaths which equals less tragedy which equals less deaths and less tragedy. The explanation could not be any more straight forward.




Circular logic is hardly straightforward

We already know how many people die with a mostly closed economy. Mortality rate is totally irrelevant to figuring out what happens if you start to reopen with 20,000 cases a day when we closed down at 1/10th that number

Look at the states with the highest rate of case growth. Tennessee. Iowa. Georgia. It’s gonna get ugly




Could I stop you from going out and picking shrooms during a stay at home order? Did you get sick and die? What was your excuse? "Oh I socially distanced anyway." That is what all the people who want to go out and eat at restaurants are saying. They have their reason and you had yours. All the death statistics in the world did not stop this. You did it anyway.

You know why? Under the constitution of The United States as an adult in this country you are free to go outside and make your own decisions. Now someone else is free to stay indoors and continue to collect unemployment. As far as I know.

Am I contradicting something here?




No where in the constitution does it say you can’t be quarantined and ordered to stay home. That kind of thing has happened throughout US history.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667204 - 05/12/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I spent the day picking shrooms. Didn’t see another soul the whole time. I didn’t violate any rules or even the spirit of the rules.



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods] * 2
    #26667212 - 05/12/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’m applying to be a contact tracer


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667226 - 05/12/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I’m applying to be a contact tracer



It pays $25 an hour in Boston, they hired over 1000 so far.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: feevers]
    #26667261 - 05/12/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Teena Chopra, MD, an infectious disease specialist at Wayne State University in Detroit, said including suspected cases without a positive test is critical to understanding the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic -- especially as sudden deaths in people's homes have skyrocketed in major U.S. cities.

"We should count those deaths as COVID deaths," Chopra said of sudden at-home fatalities. "We have to have accurate data to know the true attack rate of this virus, and the true mortality."

I will never trust any numbers that are put out. And this is why.

"Probable cause" has put a lot of people in prison. Now, it is putting people on a list after they are dead and buried with no proof either way. No chance of parole off that list.

Why would they go back and examine all those people and recalculate numbers when we have already written the story.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667315 - 05/12/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
No where in the constitution does it say you can’t be quarantined and ordered to stay home. That kind of thing has happened throughout US history.




The constitution is to limit the government, not the people.  Realizing that the actual US Constitution did not realize this, the Bill of Rights was written.

the Bill of Rights amendments add to the Constitution specific guarantees of personal freedoms and rights, clear limitations on the government's power in judicial and other proceedings, and explicit declarations that all powers not specifically granted to the U.S. Congress by the Constitution are reserved for the states or the people.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26667324 - 05/12/20 07:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

People can be quarantined. There are centuries of legal precedent for it. Your interpretation of the constitution is totally irrelevant. All that matters is what the courts say and they say it’s legal


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: HamHead]
    #26667335 - 05/12/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

@hamhead

From the CDC yesterday:
Quote:

Counting only confirmed or probable COVID-19–associated deaths, however, likely underestimates the number of deaths attributable to the pandemic.  The counting of confirmed and probable COVID-19–associated deaths might not include deaths among persons with SARS-CoV-2 infection who did not access diagnostic testing, tested falsely negative, or became infected after testing negative, died outside of a health care setting, or for whom COVID-19 was falsely not suspected by a health care provider as a cause of death. The counting of confirmed and probable COVID-19–associated deaths also does not include deaths that are indirectly associated with, but caused by, SARS-CoV-2 infection



Quote:

(In NY)During March 11–May 2, 2020, a total of 32,107 deaths were reported to DOHMH; of these deaths, 24,172 (95% confidence interval = 22,980–25,364) were found to be in excess of the seasonal expected baseline. Included in the 24,172 deaths were 13,831 (57%) laboratory-confirmed COVID-19–associated deaths and 5,048 (21%) probable COVID-19–associated deaths, leaving 5,293 (22%) excess deaths that were not identified as either laboratory-confirmed or probable COVID-19–associated deaths.




CDC:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e5.htm

NY Times:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/28/us/coronavirus-death-toll-total.html

World Economics:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/05/covid-19-death-toll-misleading-all-cause-mortality-excess-deaths-pandemic/

Oh look, even Fox News:
https://www.foxnews.com/science/more-than-15000-excess-deaths-linked-to-coronavirus-in-us


“I don’t know the exact percent that it’s higher, but certainly, it’s higher.”
-Fauci today








Edited by feevers (06/20/20 11:40 AM)


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667343 - 05/12/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
People can be quarantined. There are centuries of legal precedent for it. Your interpretation of the constitution is totally irrelevant. All that matters is what the courts say and they say it’s legal




My interpretation?  You mean the literal definition and accepted interpretation of historians and practicing lawyers.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: feevers]
    #26667351 - 05/12/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I’ll say it again, people who say we are overcounting covid deaths need to provide an alternate explanation for why the US saw an extra 100,000 deaths in April 2020 compared to the April average.

Hamhead, what is your explanation for the 50% increase in mortality in the US?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26667358 - 05/12/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

InfiniteDreams said:
Quote:

koods said:
People can be quarantined. There are centuries of legal precedent for it. Your interpretation of the constitution is totally irrelevant. All that matters is what the courts say and they say it’s legal




My interpretation?  You mean the literal definition and accepted interpretation of historians and practicing lawyers.




The only interpretation that matters is the court’s. They say it’s legal to require people to be quarantined if there is a public health emergency.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: InfiniteDreams]
    #26667370 - 05/12/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

InfiniteDreams said:
Quote:

koods said:
No where in the constitution does it say you can’t be quarantined and ordered to stay home. That kind of thing has happened throughout US history.




The constitution is to limit the government, not the people.  Realizing that the actual US Constitution did not realize this, the Bill of Rights was written.

the Bill of Rights amendments add to the Constitution specific guarantees of personal freedoms and rights, clear limitations on the government's power in judicial and other proceedings, and explicit declarations that all powers not specifically granted to the U.S. Congress by the Constitution are reserved for the states or the people.




Did you know one of the powers of the Congress is to suspend civil rights? They have to power to suspend your writ of habeus corpus and detain you without charges.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
Male

Registered: 10/25/19
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667371 - 05/12/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The only interpretation that matters is the court’s. They say it’s legal to require people to be quarantined if there is a public health emergency.




What court?  Baseless.  "They" haven't actually quarantined anyone.  It is all just recommendations in the US if you pay attention. 

Sad that people struggle for centuries to achieve these measures of freedom that are stripped away in an instant with someone's vague threat.


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InvisibleInfiniteDreams
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
    #26667380 - 05/12/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

InfiniteDreams said:
Quote:

koods said:
No where in the constitution does it say you can’t be quarantined and ordered to stay home. That kind of thing has happened throughout US history.




The constitution is to limit the government, not the people.  Realizing that the actual US Constitution did not realize this, the Bill of Rights was written.

the Bill of Rights amendments add to the Constitution specific guarantees of personal freedoms and rights, clear limitations on the government's power in judicial and other proceedings, and explicit declarations that all powers not specifically granted to the U.S. Congress by the Constitution are reserved for the states or the people.




Did you know one of the powers of the Congress is to suspend civil rights? They have to power to suspend your writ of habeus corpus and detain you without charges.




I'm not sure what your point is, but if I ever become dictator you will be my first choice to enforce my policies.


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