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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26663473 - 05/10/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psion said:
Quote:

oculodextro said:
Gaydar?




^ lol

seriously, there's tons of women who seem to have gaydar. it's just an instinct for them - possibly a pheremone cue, as some experiments have shown that gay guys sweat doesnt smell good to women like straight men's does, and womens sweat doesnt smell good to gay guys sweat while mens does. smell is often discounted in peoples senses, but some people do have acute senses of smell, myself included. (taste is often tied to this - if you have a strong sense if taste you tend to have a strong sense of smell too)

that's far more simpler than "prophetic dreams" and solipsism.

especially since dreams in general are more about symbolism than anything - you usually don't take them literally. however, if you always do the same things over and over again, then surprise - don't be surprised if your dreams tend to anticipate what you might do the next day. or maybe precognition exists - you don't need solipsism to exist for psychic abilities to!

And I think it's amusing that you keep saying Byakko isn't real - from your perspective, you can't even know if i'm real either. but from my perspective, i don't even know if you're real. except for the fact that no figment of mine would be stupid enough to repeatedly insult my most cherished companion, especially since i keep a tidy mental house. that would be amount to suicide for the figment that did.

And what is real anyways? what if this entire universe is just a simulation, ala the matrix, and we have no physical bodies? are we "real" then? I would argue yes. people who are alive but completely brain dead are considered dead, for all purposes. it's the mind that matters, not the body.

but at any rate, you keep attacking this question you cannot answer and we keep telling you to stop it, and you keep saying you cant. well, lets put it this way. it's like you're trying to move a mountain with this question. you can either learn to accept the mountain for what it is, appreciate its beauty, and leave it alone.

or you can learn to stop trying to move the mountain with the philosophical equivalent of a floating pool noodle. you do NOT have the firepower needed to solve this question! heck, nobody does! if you are really REALLY bothered by this unsolvable question, you're gonna have to dedicate your life to developing the tools to actually move the mountain - to somehow crack the code and find out how to prove you're the only being in existence or not, scientifically.

are you willing to dedicate decades upon decades of your life, going to college, getting perhaps a physics or math or philosophy major or even all the above and then decades more researching this question? if so, then do it. it's important enough to you that you've found your calling. maybe you'll find the answer, maybe not. maybe you'll find some other interesting questions and answer them and the world will hail you as a genius (or not).

or maybe that sounds like too much work. in which case it's clearly not that important to you after all.




Your last paragraph shows an ignorance of solipsism. The problem with it is that you can't verify it or disprove it. Everything is just sense data and you cannot verify it. Solipsism by definition is impossible to prove.

Also that gaydar comment is false. Not only does it not exist, but this was over the phone with her not in person. Also the dreams I have are rather detailed and later on in my life I experience the same things in great detail, so it's not just simple "pattern recognition" because even the words people say are the same.

A simulation is by definition not real and the same goes for figments of your mind. I don't think you understand the information being mentioned here. Your "inner world" is not real. It's the body that matters really, not the mind.

In terms of Occams Razor solipsism would be simpler than psychic powers and this lady with however she knew,because that would be making too many assumptions.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePsion
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Re: What is Love? [Re: oculodextro] * 1
    #26663477 - 05/10/20 10:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i mean, i kind of understand what you mean - the pictures i see are more... impressions of pictures? it's like looking through a dim, dark room than anything, and even then it's flashes of faint lightning lighting up the scenery more than anything, and it's kind of fuzzy. maybe because i went without glasses until the third grade, and i'm really nearsighted.

at least normally.

on psychedelics, i noticed that the ability for me to "see" things in my minds eye went up dramatically. the sharpness! the color! the brightness!

it was glorious! even the duration of the imagery went up! it wasn't still as bright as say, watching a television set but it was almost as good as at some points.

i would say, if you struggle with visualization, you could always try working your way up with some basic wiccan visualization exercises, like i did. :P

For example, you can start off by trying to envision a blue circle. it doesn't matter what shade of blue - pick whatever shade you like the most. here's where things get tricky - visualization is HARD. but there's a trick - if you use your other senses, it gets a bit easier. try adding a smell to that, maybe the smell of lavender for instance. maybe associate a sound with it as well, like the sound of rushing water. perhaps a texture, like a wet sensation. if you do that, you may find that the visualization is a bit more sharp than just trying to visualize a circle alone.

now, try the same with a red square. do the same thing, adding other senses to make it sharper if need be. then do the same for a green triangle, again adding other senses to increase the clarity of the image.

once you've gotten those images down fairly well, try upping it a notch - try envisioning that blue circle inside the red square. now you're superimposing two images, so it's a bit trickier - but then again, with multiple sensations, you might actually find it easier. do the same with the square inside the triangle. then, try envisioning the circle, inside the square, with those two inside the triangle.

finally, envision the blue circle, inside the red square, inside the green triangle, all inside a larger blue circle. if you pulled this off, congrats, you envisioned (a rather colorful version of) the symbol for alchemy! at this point visualizing ordinary objects should probably be a cinch for you. :P


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OfflinePsion
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26663507 - 05/10/20 10:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Your last paragraph shows an ignorance of solipsism. The problem with it is that you can't verify it or disprove it. Everything is just sense data and you cannot verify it. Solipsism by definition is impossible to prove.

Also that gaydar comment is false. Not only does it not exist, but this was over the phone with her not in person. Also the dreams I have are rather detailed and later on in my life I experience the same things in great detail, so it's not just simple "pattern recognition" because even the words people say are the same.

A simulation is by definition not real and the same goes for figments of your mind. I don't think you understand the information being mentioned here. Your "inner world" is not real. It's the body that matters really, not the mind.

In terms of Occams Razor solipsism would be simpler than psychic powers and this lady with however she knew,because that would be making too many assumptions.




uh... you really don't understand "real" do you? information is most definitely real. it's a thing - granted, it's up for debate whether information is conserved like mass and energy, or whether it can be destroyed and created, but it's most definitely a property and exists. so saying an inner world is not real, that the mind doesn't matter, is laughable. go ahead and destroy all your memories and tell me how much they don't matter. oh wait. that wouldn't work very well would it - you kind of need those memories to do a little thing called communicating, or even knowing how to operate a keyboard and use the internet.

or interact with other people. or figments. whatever.

and the lady could've also just been guessing via a lucky shot in the dark - or via leading questions, like many fake psychics do.

Regardless, you keep saying there's no way of answering this, so why do you keep bothering us? we can't answer it either - we know better than to even try answering it, because it's illogical to try. if it bugs you go try solving it on your own, because you'll find no answers from us. we're either figments of your imagination or not, or you're a figment of ours or not. but this is one question that you'll either have to figure out how to answer or just give up on as unanswerable yourself - no one else on earth can answer it for you.

personally i'd just give up on it and try working on trying new hobbies, living life to its fullest, and shelving that question for the nonce. tackle it years later and see if it still bothers you then - and if so, see if you have better tools to tackle it than you do now. because right now... lol. we're just watching you attack that mountain and shaking our heads at you, outside observers lovingly trying not to laugh (too hard) at the absurdity because a lot of us did the same silly things when we were younger.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Buddha Dharma: Meditation, Visualization, Techniques, Experience, Truth & Wisdom , etc etc. [Re: Psion]
    #26663576 - 05/10/20 11:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In the Buddhist tradition (all 3 vehicles) , there are some incredibly complex visualizations used at times to aid in comprehension of various teachings and for certain exercises.

I used to really think they were a crock of shit, mostly because I ignorantly believed there was no way that practitioners could mentally produce

such things in all the splendor and detail as described by individuals, groups, and in canonical texts.  Mainly because I couldn’t do it after attempting it for what I erroneously believed to be a reasonable length of time, at the time.  Talk about hubris...  did I mention that at the time I was attempting to do these things pretty much on my own?  Lmao, I was Just using the internet and a search engine, and some books by advanced practitioners that had a few paragraphs on the subject conveying their own experiences with the practice.  I thought, and was similar to what Oculodextro described his imagination to be - and it was just how it was for everyone (more or less though) - and that was that...

Anyways, because I failed at proving to myself that such a thing could be true as described by others, I opted for one of the classical primarily non-visualization practices as the main form of daily formal meditation.  A prerequisite to my real goal at that time- The Jhānas.


I won’t describe my experiences with that here fully because it would be too long, but eventually I began to practice and live in and with a community of practitioners, both novices, and advanced.  Over the course of my time there I would hear bits and pieces of of some monks story from when they were in another traditions community and some of the practices they did, and eventually learned how to find the information that was relevant to learning those practices.

Suffice it to say - there is a gradual system involved for most.  And I had to go back, and start at the beginning to learn to visualize in a way that you can close your eyes and literally see the object of concentration that one was working with, with the mind only so to speak, and without the image fading away quickly into unreality.

There are entire sections, with detailed technical manual instructions for how do it so, and it takes a not insignificant amount of time to cultivate the mind and body to be able to do it - not to mention needing another person who knows both what they are doing from experience, and is able to teach it correctly and well - AND be able to discern how best to teach you and know when and how one is making errors. That’s how it goes, initially at least - until one can “walk on their own “,  And can practice alone.

But before one can walk on their own one must be born, grow legs, mature.  Then one must learn to crawl, followed by standing, all the while developing the muscles and neurons, and nerves and bones etc at each step of the way.  After crawling and standing with equilibrium and balance , one must learn to walk!  All of this over a not insignificant amount of time...all before we can run!

And we all had to do it, this was the Only way.  The natural order had to be followed and the order of operations needed to be right, and the conditions and circumstances and situation appropriate.  Amazing, isn’t it?


Fast forward 14 years, and when I look back at myself when I had thought I knew better simply because I couldn’t do it, and I wouldn’t believe anyone else could do it -  and I just laugh.  Somethings don’t come easy, and the saying that the best things, good things, the things most worth having in this life don’t come easy -  certainly  rings true now.

It makes me glad to know that our small mind is always limited in one sense, because in another sense that means there are potentially infinite infinities of things that can can be revealed, potentially infinite limitless depths to the mind and the world.


The updated version of the saying attributed to Horacio comes to mind : 


“  There are more things in heaven and Earth - Horatio - Than are dreamt of in your philosophy & science... “


  Rings completely true, and is not false.


I’ve learned how to use the imagery of mind to create certain realistic visualizations termed Kasinas:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasina (the list shared on wiki are only some of the more common variations of visual objects, one can do other things - like an infinitely expanding shape and color that lasts for as long as one maintains it - 30 sec, 5 m,30m etc) however, the quality of concentration that needs to be developed for this (relative to the more advanced types) technique is significant. First learning a tried and true technique to do so, and then Honing the mental faculty of attention so that one may eventually achieve a special deep concentrative state of absorption. 


There are “expedient means” to this - certain states everyone goes into during the day can be catalyzing to the level or degree of deep absorptive concentration that one requires and pliancy of mind so as to have it work in ones favor, also there are certain natural substances that can aid in this as well (non intoxicants), and even if you find yourself in that state somehow by accident or by design - via jumping into it from an adjacent state - chances are likely you get knocked out of it rapidly after because it takes practice to adjust to it and remain; as the state can seem initially unstable - and our personal conditioning (body and mind) seems to like to kick in and pull us out - just like it’s easy to be awoken from a dream by a loud noise when only a light sleep was achieved.


I’ll add that - every dog has his day :smile:. Getting a lucky foretaste or break is one of the best motivators for putting in the work to achieve ones goal (in regards to this and anything) -  because now you’ve seen, known, and tasted it for yourself and know it to be real and possible truly - from one’s own experience.  Also, the natural disposition of some individuals may make them more prone to being naturally capable, or gifted, when it comes to this.  Meaning they can sort of find their way either via groping in the dark, or by intuition to achieve and correctly recognize that state for what it is more easily than others.  Lastly, I’m confident most people in general naturally experience such states at some point or another while alive. Wether they can recognize and discern it as a natural state being conducive to the aforementioned subject matter is another thing.  Moving on!



One has to first begin to develop  a single simple imagery one wants to see, and after all that, it doesn’t necessarily allow one to conjure up something completely completely different nearly instantly-  as in, it doesn’t necessarily all transfer over to a novel imagine one takes to mind, but there is a degree of some cross over for similarities because the Brain is developing new ways of using neural path ways to do this meditation - some of which are perennial to all imagery - doing so takes practice and training to pull off -  but the good thing is when one becomes proficient enough via doing the work for fabricating mental imagery that is new to see with the mind like one does with the eye, it becomes easier and quicker - more natural, intuitive - tacit.


Like how in cooking when one becomes accustomed to using certain food items for their favorite dish - ie. when preparing scrambled eggs for breakfast, one has to beat and mix the yolk and whites > in that way -  any future cooking endeavor  that calls for beaten eggs > like when baking a cake > that part of it will already be second nature.  That’s how things work with visualization of imagery too, via crossover/transfer.  A novel recipe for a dish that calls for never before used food items, may work with some previously acquired skills and so that is considered to be a partial match.  Predict, reflect, perceive.  That’s a simplistic way to consider some mechanics involved with /behind mental-visual work.


Lmao. The stuff people had to do and learn back in the old days when there were no TVs or PCs/ screen! Just kidding, this elaborate art is actually part of a more meaningfully deep process and endeavor, one that is meant to work in tandem with a primary formal meditation and disciplined holistic lifestyle as taught in the Buddhist traditions - in order to aid in developing a Mind and Body that is able, ready , and sharp enough  to  achieve penetrating insight into the true nature of the reality of all phenomena itself! 

Akin to, and possibly as cool as - the rigorously thorough and challenging training and practice astronauts go through just to be eligible, fit, and ready to take on space flight!  Most Monks aren’t kidding around in that sense; although, some who have lost their way- even in the temple community setting -  have lost sight of their duty... Note:  Monks hold no monopoly over such things.  Lay persons can and do the same with sufficient motivation and attitude - and they do it while in society at large!  Now that’s impressive.


Btw.... another funny thing, learning all of this is just the tip of the iceberg, it’s like a prerequisite for another technique, and that technique is necessary for the  Vippasina- Samatha , and that is a prerequisite for the  Jhanas !  That’s pretty much the like climbing an escarpment 10,000 spans high...and it is where the real work is done.  It is like an astronaut getting his training and passing it and then taking a rocket ship to the International Space Station.  All the training is for the work/play that happens there.  Away from much of the distractions, aided by a healthy body, and a Mind honed by the virtue of self discipline, practice, and training.

From there, one sees clearly without obfuscation, having abandoned hindrances - the Mind becomes the greatest and most powerful instrument known to man.  From this point the view can be likened to the astronauts view of earth from being outside the ISS on a space walk....but without most of the trappings of the spacesuit :cool:  Now one can finally settle The Great Matter of the meaning of embodiment in the present here and now.  Mind you- your still human, with all it’s pros and cons - how could we be anything else? But to know the true nature of what we are a part of, and awake to from birth - that might just be the purpose of all of it.:mushroom2:



All I wanted was to experience the Jhanic states, aswell as to experience and use Siddhis in them when I started long ago.... and it’s worth it - Life is exactly the same afterwards as it was before -  you however, are forever changed for knowing something so very very precious and rare - not just as 1 experience of many, or as a past memory - but as a living ineffable truth throughout all one’s life- shared by all sentient beings,
-  of the non-dual & dual of all phenomena as co-mutually arising interdependently originated & interconnected harmonious unity -
            The Great Perfection.  To whom is this known?  It is known by The true man without rank - forever at home yet always on the way.
To be awake to this is what the moniker Buddha signifies, the word Buddha is in actuality - a title.


However, the Jhanas are not the end all be all - they are invaluable, and incredibly useful, but they are a fabricated special state of consciousness from which one can then use their Mind in ways not normally imagined, traditionally in a way conducive that allows one to experience bliss joined with emptiness, so as to achieve the exalted insight of the immaculate ones.  To express one’s own understanding of the aforementioned via embodying it in morality, wisdom, and concentration in ones life always.....Ok...sorry for the rant.  Back on topic! :rolleyes::tongue:


  But nowadays most everyone wants things YESTERDAY...now now now.  Delayed gratification is generally the wise move- but it’s harder to remember it as so because our modern world is so quick and filled with distractions and trappings.  While psychedelics are a natural tool that can potentially invoke a foretaste of the nature of enlightened Mind, and has an important place in life- its an aid, and not the truth in itself.

This is part of the reason why, I’m highly skeptical about most who say they have gave it their best at “practicing” meditation of this sort, and it “didn’t work”, Or it was “useless” l etc etc...  ( I remind you now this post is my heavy bias :grin: ).  I can understand if it’s not the way for you , and you simply do not want to do it, but if that is the case be honest about that.  Because can you claim in full confidence that it doesn’t work or is useless, or making one “worse” -  having not even truly ever appropriately learned and practiced, and thus never having truly begun ? Not to mention seeing it to its end?  That’s like saying a movie sucks after watching onlythe opening credits in an unknown foreign language with no subtitles.  I wonder...hmm.  How can one say such a thing when one doesn’t live it with purified heart & mind?  Unspoiled.

That’s exactly like buying a PC at the store, bringing it home and staring at the box it came in and wondering Why it’s not working and doing the all the wonderful “special” things you’ve heard it can do...

All before even UnBoxing it, setting it up properly, learning ,navigating, and becoming skilled at using the software, and so on and so forth...  :smbfacepalm:  It’s exactly like this analogy...exactly ... like buying seeds for an apple tree and wondering why it hasn’t grown to maturity when it has been planted in inappropriate soil, or under inappropriate conditions?  Or even if all done appropriately- but wondering why there is not many fruits from a mere couple of years of growth -  Before completion?  It beats me why one would chose to do something like that, especially when there’s little time to waste on frivolous pursuits in life.  Would you willingly drop out of university 1 semester before you graduate?  What was it all for then?  Yes, one can grow and gain wisdom even from that experience, but that is the very opposite of skillful means.


If your thinking this is elitist - just remember everything in life has an appropriate natural order, so does this.  Allow me to explain:


In modern culture it may be sold as something anyone can do - and that is true!  But your generally sold on it through disingenuous marketing and advertising....in reality?  Think how long it takes to go through ones own Education...Kindergarten all the way through College.... yeah, that’s more accurate.  Do you get more and learn more the longer you stick it out with your education and put in the appropriate work?  Of course you do.  Well, here’s the truth brothers - meditation is and works almost exactly the same way.

P.S.

Quickening's do happen, and skillful means help expedite the process, and momentum is real when training to meditate.  Also, some meditations have a much lower learning curve than others.  Just like with Schooling,  there are normal and advanced courses. And some students are quicker, some are slower -  some are smarter, some are dumber.  That is just life. Each has its own pros and cons.

And I am what my username suggests, A blind ass - but that didn’t and doesn’t stop me.  Anyone can do it.  And just like with weight training to build muscle-  the payoff is real, measurable, saliently known by self and other.  It’s partial to maintenance, and the amount of time and effort put into it.  But the wisdom one unearths from ones own Mind with it -  that it not subject to decay, and is lasting.  What’s left the , is wether one chooses to live that wisdom and put it into effect in life and the world by expressing it by embodying it.  To do so Is Moral goodness


So, to those who claim to have learned and  “ tried it “... That sounds much like the kids I teach who say a math problem doesn’t work, or that learning and studying XY&Z is pointlessly useless..... Well, here the thing about that...

I’m sure for them (many) it didn’t work and, and was useless - because (a) they had no genuine guide and (b) they didn’t have the prerequisites to even be doing it at all. .... there fore.... who knows what the heck they were actually doing when they thought they were doing the meditation/ or technique to aid in it!  I know finding a teacher, a guide, is insanely hard in certain countries - but real, genuine, and good ones Do exist.  It’s all a matter trial and error - but without giving up on one’s the original dreamer goal.  Hint, learn to spot a fake, learn to spot a grift, learn to spot a genuine advanced practitioner that knows how to proficiently teach well of the Buddha Dhamma.


It would be like a child in an elementary school , going to college, and enrolling in an inOrganic Chemistry course or something akin to that.

Well, I’m all my efforts and time spent living and being taught, and studying, learning, and practicing some of these things - I’m still a novice.
But I now know, what I don’t know - and have good discernment and sharp concentration.  A little wisdom :wink:, and a working morality.

This practice, the buddha way - cannot be appropriately done without morality, concentration, and wisdom as the utmost foundation of ones life.

We all need to learn how to crawl before we walk, and definitely before we can run a marathon - no exceptions to that -  :heart:


For those of you who are stuck, or lost in a real or symbolic way in life,  try starting at the beginning and with the basics, from there put one foot in front of the other until you can learn to walk again, for I suspect    (if your human like me)    that you may be trying to fly before you’ve even learned to run.  Essentially, forgetting the natural order of operations for life.  Godspeed my brothers.  :heart:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/11/20 10:16 AM)


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OfflinePsion
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Re: What is Love [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26663586 - 05/10/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

oh yeah, i won't even try to say i'm on that kind of level of mental visualization haha. i was just hoping to help oculodextro get to the "see something" in the minds eye stage with what helped me. i would totally dig being able to see with crystal clarity in my minds eye instead of the fuzzy, fast fading pictures i normally get. :P


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love [Re: Psion]
    #26663658 - 05/11/20 01:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

All good, the reason I made that post was primarily because your discussion with him inspired me to write, so thank you - :grin:
I wanted to flesh out some things I’ve observed regarding the topic, as well as tie it into some other branches of topics that have been floating around this my head, this thread, the forum, and our world in general. 
Just happened to get on a roll while typing it here and ran with it :shrug:  ...  :lol:.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/11/20 01:09 AM)


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: What is Love [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26663675 - 05/11/20 01:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Define "real" Thanatos, if Psion's other persona - for lack of a better word - in his mind was not real.

So you want to choose philosophical investigation of this problem that is fine. What if solipsism is real like you live in a simulation etc. Have you studied this perspective and how to live if that were true? You say you would kill yourself but why? The loneliness you say but why would that hypothetically be a bad thing, because certainly there is a great illusion of others outside of you. Like you want to find the most logical philosophy for existence or something maybe you have to go through hell to get to that logos of your existence. You said it terrifies you to think of being alone so let yourself be terrified and have a panic attack and what not. What is beyond that? Dont let a scary feeling keep you from searching the truth if thats what you want. Dont be a coward. Clearly you have to get to the bottom of this problem or you are stuck in this limbo that you describe. What do others think of the existential problems of solipsism and the simulation argument for example? Once again I will ask you do you want to solve this problem or just keep on complaining and whining ?


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OfflinePsion
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Re: What is Love [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26663688 - 05/11/20 01:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i mean, if you are the only being in existence and everyone else is just illusion, i guess that means you can create the fantasy boyfriend of your dreams and have a kickass time. so there's that. >.>b


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love [Re: Psion]
    #26664217 - 05/11/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Here you go...

The law of the unity of opposites.  Try applying it to anti- natalism and solipsism and see what happens.  They become effete and empty, Before they are like being fooled by a magicians magic show in Vegas.... afterwards they are knowing how the trick works, and seeing the thing that gave them weight, is a convincingillusion and ignorance.

Cognitive clarity becomes dominant, and the problem is seen for what it is - a paper tiger that when seen distorted becomes powerful enough through the powers of the Mind to spell the perceiver into believing it’s no longer just a paper tiger. 


Whose programming the programmers then?  (x)  Ad infinitum ?

The truth is that each and both of the proverbial sides of the coin impacts & influences both itself and the other in tandem - they are linked, and this linked cyclical back and forth is what turns the karmic wheel of cause and effect -  Revolution... 

The dream dreams the dreamer while the dreamer dreams the dream.  Co-Mutually arising interdependently originated and interconnected phenomena.

Unity of the non-dual & dual, the natural primordial law of the unity of opposites :

            Ying and Yang.

                  :yinyang:      :growshrooms:            :yinyang2:

This dispels solipsism, proving that the answer to solipsism is that it is false because it has no basis in reality .

Another example like solipsism with the same dilemma :

Imagine a duck in a glass bottle. The neck of the bottle is too small to allow the duck through. The bottle is perfectly formed and has no trick bottoms or other openings. How do you get the duck out of the bottle without damaging either the duck or the bottle?


 

My answer elucidates now reality is beyond the falsity of solipsism, that solipsism takes the stance of being timid and unsure on the Beliefthat one cannot trust their own Ears, eyes, nose, mouth, and skin so much so that one cannot be sure of anything but their mind (which funnily enough is interdependent upon the senses to come to that conclusion in the first place - so why be sure of the mind at all if your basis for such a thing IS the senses itself) .  Mine posits that real & unreal, true & false, known & unknown, “is” & “is not”, Mind & Body (sense organs are body).  are all unified in that they are opposites - thus to make a claim that mind is more of a sure stance then the body or world - and all that can be known - is just as stupid as saying the body is the sure stance for what’s is knowable and the mind is not provable.

Only when you forget that in reality - all opposites are unified , can one be led astray and create a problem that doesn’t exist in the first place-    Mu. -  Here is an illustration of a false, or Illusory  problem

I really don’t expect him to get it, or if he did Admit it... but if this can even plant a single seed of wisdom in his consciousness that goes deep even if it takes 20 years to bare fruit - I’m a happy camper.

But I suppose one has to be able to comprehend such a thing for it do show why solipsism is fundamentally false from the first word of the statement of the philosophy theory itself .  Looks like I’m the first guy to find the answer!  Do I get a cookie?

So he’s either lying in some sense to some degree, or he’s a skilled troll, or he’s mentally ill -  there is no middle ground on this one.

Ta da - like magic.

If you try and have an actual answer to “reality” ... try not using dualistic conception as your only means.  That’s exactly like trying to pay for something at the store with only one side of a coin.... it just... doesn’t...work...that...way...in reality.

That’s the real reason people move on from solipsism, not because there is no answer.  Its because it’s the question-answer thats imaginary.  Not the body-mind.              ***.  P.S.,  Love is when baby don’t hurt me no more.  ***


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/11/20 11:54 AM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26664400 - 05/11/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Define "real" Thanatos, if Psion's other persona - for lack of a better word - in his mind was not real.

So you want to choose philosophical investigation of this problem that is fine. What if solipsism is real like you live in a simulation etc. Have you studied this perspective and how to live if that were true? You say you would kill yourself but why? The loneliness you say but why would that hypothetically be a bad thing, because certainly there is a great illusion of others outside of you. Like you want to find the most logical philosophy for existence or something maybe you have to go through hell to get to that logos of your existence. You said it terrifies you to think of being alone so let yourself be terrified and have a panic attack and what not. What is beyond that? Dont let a scary feeling keep you from searching the truth if thats what you want. Dont be a coward. Clearly you have to get to the bottom of this problem or you are stuck in this limbo that you describe. What do others think of the existential problems of solipsism and the simulation argument for example? Once again I will ask you do you want to solve this problem or just keep on complaining and whining ?




That loneliness would be the worst be used it would render everything I do or would want to do pointless. Sort of like how lucid dreams are pointless. There isn’t anything beyond that besides death, or possibly forgetting it, maybe a lifetime of depression as my “friends” and potential lovers aren’t real.  I’ve seen what lies beyond that world and it’s not great, which is why it’s so scary. I would lose my resolve to continue living. The reason the problem is so thorny is because there is NO solution and there never will be. I cannot and will never truly know if the world and other people exist or not.

Quote:

Psion said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Your last paragraph shows an ignorance of solipsism. The problem with it is that you can't verify it or disprove it. Everything is just sense data and you cannot verify it. Solipsism by definition is impossible to prove.

Also that gaydar comment is false. Not only does it not exist, but this was over the phone with her not in person. Also the dreams I have are rather detailed and later on in my life I experience the same things in great detail, so it's not just simple "pattern recognition" because even the words people say are the same.

A simulation is by definition not real and the same goes for figments of your mind. I don't think you understand the information being mentioned here. Your "inner world" is not real. It's the body that matters really, not the mind.

In terms of Occams Razor solipsism would be simpler than psychic powers and this lady with however she knew,because that would be making too many assumptions.




uh... you really don't understand "real" do you? information is most definitely real. it's a thing - granted, it's up for debate whether information is conserved like mass and energy, or whether it can be destroyed and created, but it's most definitely a property and exists. so saying an inner world is not real, that the mind doesn't matter, is laughable. go ahead and destroy all your memories and tell me how much they don't matter. oh wait. that wouldn't work very well would it - you kind of need those memories to do a little thing called communicating, or even knowing how to operate a keyboard and use the internet.

or interact with other people. or figments. whatever.

and the lady could've also just been guessing via a lucky shot in the dark - or via leading questions, like many fake psychics do.

Regardless, you keep saying there's no way of answering this, so why do you keep bothering us? we can't answer it either - we know better than to even try answering it, because it's illogical to try. if it bugs you go try solving it on your own, because you'll find no answers from us. we're either figments of your imagination or not, or you're a figment of ours or not. but this is one question that you'll either have to figure out how to answer or just give up on as unanswerable yourself - no one else on earth can answer it for you.

personally i'd just give up on it and try working on trying new hobbies, living life to its fullest, and shelving that question for the nonce. tackle it years later and see if it still bothers you then - and if so, see if you have better tools to tackle it than you do now. because right now... lol. we're just watching you attack that mountain and shaking our heads at you, outside observers lovingly trying not to laugh (too hard) at the absurdity because a lot of us did the same silly things when we were younger.




Living life to the fullest is meaningless and empty if other people don’t exist and they don’t feel or have emotions, glossing over the point that someone made earlier in the thread said that emotions aren’t real and don’t matter.

It just seem like you don’t get why solipsism is so scary. Why it being true is so bad because none of your comments show you grasp what is being said. If none of this is real the suicide would be the only logical option and it’s not something I look forward to. You are wrong in that it’s a mountain because those exist and can be climbed. It’s more like the edge of a map in video games, you can’t go beyond it no matter what and there is no way to do so and never will be.

You just don’t get it do you? The fear of having the people you love and care about being figments of your mind, that your help isn’t real, your care for them, nothing. To having a comforting touch be as hollow as the void because the subject giving it doesn’t exist and isn’t real. I really don’t know what else I can do to convey the situation anymore. You guys really don’t get why it’s so bad and why suicide would be the outcome if it were true.

Also TBA your little blurbs don’t really disprove solipsism or show it to be wrong, because such arguments can just be written off as projections created by your mind. I mean people haven’t shown me how my “evidence” couldn’t be proof of solipsism.


Edited by Thanatos10 (05/11/20 12:19 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26664410 - 05/11/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

About fearing people are a figment .... The fear isn’t rational - do you recognize that?

It’s like worrying that your going to be punished and sent to hell for being gay by the Old Testament God.

That’s not a rational fear either.

Thanatos, have you talked to Markos about this?  He’s who I would talk to about this if I had to pick a member here.

Also, you might understand my previous post when you get older, I’d hope. For now it’s  Way to soon for now.

You should seek real help.  It’s plain as day you need outside assistance. And there isn’t any point in not doing so.  That or you can wait till it’s so bad you end up doing something rash and end up in a psych ward or worsei:shrug:  Can’t your parents or someone you live with help you find someone to see you about this?  Do they even know this is how you feel?  It’s really not cool to see when people on this forum crying for help but don’t know what to do.  You can ask you know?


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/11/20 12:32 PM)


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OfflineCannabischarlie
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Re: What is love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26664419 - 05/11/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
This section of the signature line has been intentionally left blank.

  we could all use a little more sunshine.

:shrug: yeah, she's funny and somewhat interesting.  not a beauty queen, but not bad lookin.  i'd feel quite honored to fuck janine garofalo.
-tiny_rabid_birds


Edited by Cannabischarlie (05/11/20 12:33 PM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26665014 - 05/11/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
About fearing people are a figment .... The fear isn’t rational - do you recognize that?

It’s like worrying that your going to be punished and sent to hell for being gay by the Old Testament God.

That’s not a rational fear either.

Thanatos, have you talked to Markos about this?  He’s who I would talk to about this if I had to pick a member here.

Also, you might understand my previous post when you get older, I’d hope. For now it’s  Way to soon for now.

You should seek real help.  It’s plain as day you need outside assistance. And there isn’t any point in not doing so.  That or you can wait till it’s so bad you end up doing something rash and end up in a psych ward or worsei:shrug:  Can’t your parents or someone you live with help you find someone to see you about this?  Do they even know this is how you feel?  It’s really not cool to see when people on this forum crying for help but don’t know what to do.  You can ask you know?



How are those not rational? Who decides that? What about my “evidence”?

I’m not doubting the help, I know this can’t go on. But the fear of loneliness hurts a lot. I don’t have any friends, never really did and the thought of being alone permanently is terrifying. I try to tell myself that I don’t need anyone and I’m better alone and that people are a burden, blah blah blah. But it’s not true at all. I’m at not need a lot of social contact but that’s different from not getting anything at all.

As for asking others, I’ve burned a lot of bridges on here.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26665171 - 05/11/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Also it’s not even as though there’s much waiting for me if I did get over it. I’ve read too much to the point that anything I want to do or enjoy seems wrong or on some “lower level of consciousness”. Sex; animalistic and base, something to transcend. Relationships; dependency needs and a sign you are a weak human being for needing someone else to love you. Video games? Well you get it.

Seems like anything that would help me out of this is wrong or incorrect in some way according to some one .


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26665202 - 05/11/20 07:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That's because there is no correct.

Everybody has to formulate and settle within their own existential crises.

Yours is different to mine.

The one thing we share(I hope at some point atleast) is the struggle.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: What is Love? [Re: pineninja]
    #26665375 - 05/11/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
The one thing we share(I hope at some point atleast) is the struggle.



I don't think Thannyboy can quite wrap his head around this.

Seems to me very much like one of those narcissistic mindsets I occasionally encounter that says 'my suffering is worse than anyone elses'.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: pineninja]
    #26665376 - 05/11/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
That's because there is no correct.

Everybody has to formulate and settle within their own existential crises.

Yours is different to mine.

The one thing we share(I hope at some point atleast) is the struggle.



I want to believe that but whenever I go my own way I just hear the words of past writings and people tell me how it’s wrong or lesser, most of it Buddhism and other stuff really


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePsion
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26665442 - 05/11/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
About fearing people are a figment .... The fear isn’t rational - do you recognize that?

It’s like worrying that your going to be punished and sent to hell for being gay by the Old Testament God.

That’s not a rational fear either.

Thanatos, have you talked to Markos about this?  He’s who I would talk to about this if I had to pick a member here.

Also, you might understand my previous post when you get older, I’d hope. For now it’s  Way to soon for now.

You should seek real help.  It’s plain as day you need outside assistance. And there isn’t any point in not doing so.  That or you can wait till it’s so bad you end up doing something rash and end up in a psych ward or worsei:shrug:  Can’t your parents or someone you live with help you find someone to see you about this?  Do they even know this is how you feel?  It’s really not cool to see when people on this forum crying for help but don’t know what to do.  You can ask you know?



How are those not rational? Who decides that? What about my “evidence”?

I’m not doubting the help, I know this can’t go on. But the fear of loneliness hurts a lot. I don’t have any friends, never really did and the thought of being alone permanently is terrifying. I try to tell myself that I don’t need anyone and I’m better alone and that people are a burden, blah blah blah. But it’s not true at all. I’m at not need a lot of social contact but that’s different from not getting anything at all.

As for asking others, I’ve burned a lot of bridges on here.




for the rationality, here's an experiment. take a decently wide, long strip of paper. add one half twist to it and tape it in a loop, so that you now have what is called a Mobius strip. here's a fun thing about it - it's one dimensional. don't believe me? take a pen, and place it in the middle of the strip. now draw a line along the middle, and keep doing so. it will loop all the way around and eventually meet itself... covering both sides of the loop. the entire thing.

here's another fun experiment with it. take a pair of scissors, and cut down the middle of the strip along that line down the center of the loop. logic dictates you will get two thinner mobius strips. mobius strips gives no fucks about logic - you will get a thinner strip with two half twists. if you try cutting down the center of that thinner double twisted mobius strip, you will then get TWO entangled, even more twisted strips. repeat this and you will get even more entangled, more twisted strips.

this is what we mean by worrying about whether other people are real or not is illogical - you can't do anything about the problem. there's no way of solving it, and it just leads down a rabbit hole of worries and more questions of whether anything is real, including yourself, and what the definition of reality even is. it just leads to complete disassociation with your very being and it's unhealthy...and pointless.  it's a gordian knot problem, only solvable by cutting across the issue, not by playing by it's rules. you solve it by saying "eh, whatever lol" and just laughing it off and moving on.

"but what's the point of anything then!" you cry?

there is none.

no rules.

there's no man in the sky telling you to follow his rules or face eternal damnation...unless you choose to follow that path. there's no gods and devils except the ones we create for ourselves, and the bonds we forge between each other - regardless if that bond is between separate parts of one entity or bonds between different entities.

You can choose to live life in misery and solitude, or you can choose to try and stand up and try to improve yourself. it doesn't matter if there's "no point". you create the point. in that sense, we ARE god, creating our own worlds with our imaginations, bringing purpose and life where none existed before.

It's an interesting thing that people never seem to really thing about - in the creation myth, why god would put a deadly toxic plant in a paradise garden with two humans who were the mental equivalent of children and go "ok kids, don't go eating this or you'll die!" when that's like leaving a live wire near a toddler and saying "now don't go playing with this or you'll get electrocuted!", when a toddler doesn't even understand the concept of death. not to mention putting a snake in the garden when he's fully aware of the serpents nature.

as if god intended mankind to fall. but why?

because death is not the end, but the beginning of rebirth, of renewal. of wisdom.

we are the children of God. and children eventually need to grow up. every parent wants to see their children grow strong and wise, after all. why would God be any exception?

God intended for us to eat that fruit. to die. to fail, to sin, to suffer... and eventually learn and grow. until one day, we too shall be as Gods.

and that's the point really. to live. to learn. to grow wiser, stronger, better. to love and improve all of creation, in whatever ways we can. you are only now just starting to understand, the most basic of understandings - that you are lying to yourself about not needing anyone, and that deep down you realize you do need others. if you were truly the only being in the universe - you would not have that need. you would not have evolved a need for other beings, if you were the only being. you are an imperfect shard, as are we all, reaching out for what you lack.

people who say sex is animalistic and base? so what? it's there for many physical, relationship, spiritual, and emotional reasons - enjoy it! have fun with it! (come on, what's wrong with animals? we're animals, last i checked - or did you forget that we're homo sapiens?) relationships are a weakness? please! rope is made up of many weak strands entwined together to make something far stronger than the sum of its parts. likewise, the body is many individual unique cells, all working together in harmony to make something far greater than the sum. relationships, when they are of the kind that strengthen you, are something to cherish! video games? they're a relaxing activity, a fusion of storytelling, music, game playing, and more! that's not a waste of time, that's an epic combination of art! who cares what old geezers who watch faux news for 9 hours at a time say?

you see what i'm saying? everything has a proper time and place. when things are used in their right time and place, it's like a symphony - everything works in harmony and everything is beautiful. evil isn't a thing, so much as it is things falling out of place, out of tune. it's a discord. hate the sin, not the sinner, etc.

that's why people get so confused all the time, why people are always trying to find these shortcuts with "don't do this thing"! "follow this commandment or else eternal damnation will follow"! but it's not like that. everyone is unique. you have to learn to understand yourself, love yourself, and use logic to figure out when the proper time and proper place is to take an action.

it's not easy... but it's infinitely more rewarding.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26665465 - 05/11/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
That's because there is no correct.

Everybody has to formulate and settle within their own existential crises.

Yours is different to mine.

The one thing we share(I hope at some point atleast) is the struggle.



I want to believe that but whenever I go my own way I just hear the words of past writings and people tell me how it’s wrong or lesser, most of it Buddhism and other stuff really




The people who wrote those books read others and so and and on.

There is no be all and end all in any of the (imo) reputable teachings.

It's for you to read and take from and then write your own metaphorical (or real) book.

******

We stare of into the darkness.
We end up trying to find ourselves.
With an emotional confusion.
With the story that never tells.

Loading theory with surely.
Good bad and I between.
Notions of care or not.
Universal causation totally unseen.

Learning if it does or doesn't.
You already missed your answer.
You see it's you, you see.
A conclusion isn't matter.

Wrapped up in a seeming right.
Comfort seeing what others can't.
Books help the arrived delusion.
Burn them all to start. 

Some rich kid has an epiphany.
About how the rest should be.
Instead of reading his religiously.
Have your own to see.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26665594 - 05/11/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

On some level I don't truly buy solipsism, and I know that fear holds me to it. I think that by living as though it's true I'm protecting myself but I'm not, I'm just living with the pain of it when I can't prove it.

I know on some level my "evidence" could be something else, but with solipsism on the brain it seems like everything is proof of it all (even though by definition you would never be able to know it to be true). But again it's all fear, the fear of cosmic loneliness throws all my faculties out the window. It's hard to bond with people because it haunts me, I can't just be because it haunts me.

It's not logic anymore but paranoia. Everything seems to be evidence for it and it's all I think about.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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