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Invisiblepaddoholland
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Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!!
    #266635 - 03/07/01 02:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

It's easy to make 80% alcohol out of 96%, just add some demineralised water and you will get a 80% concentration!
I'm not that big a grower yet but I have some microbiological bac background and will try to keep you updated if some interesting is happening in that world!!
Just trying to make this community work!
Peace



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Invisiblepsilocybe cubensis
Blood, guts, andbroken teeth.

Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 1,220
Loc: Lost Angels
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! *DELETED* [Re: paddoholland]
    #267389 - 03/07/01 06:17 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by psilocybe cubensis


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OfflineSubmob
Freak of freaks

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 48
Loc: here
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: psilocybe cubensis]
    #267883 - 03/08/01 12:06 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting, thanx for the tip, btw where can 80% alchohol be purchased? Grocery stores just have the watered down isopropyll crap, is there a convenient place to purchase the good stuff?

De Omnibus Dubitandum


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Invisiblepaddoholland
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Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Submob]
    #267976 - 03/08/01 04:21 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

80% alcohol can be made out of 96%!!!
Just add demineralised water in calculated proportions) to the 96%.
If not possible to purchase 96% it's a problem!!
peace:)



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Invisiblepaddoholland
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Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!!
    #268490 - 03/09/01 02:02 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

In reply to:

Originally posted by: Tygyrtoo
The best solution, and the one that is sold as U.S.P, is 70% ethanol to 30% water. This appears to have the ideal mix.



I have to comment that recent studies have found out that 80% is doing more damage than 70%. I have found out this fact at a microbiological company (examination of foods) wich I've worked for. And in college, a microbiological education they also teach us this fact!! :smile:PEACE:)



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OfflineSmurfy
journeyman
Registered: 11/17/00
Posts: 1
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: paddoholland]
    #269100 - 03/10/01 01:25 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Ok then whats the benefits of the 97% stuff over the 70%? In any uses.



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InvisibleSoup
enthusiast
Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Smurfy]
    #269536 - 03/11/01 11:00 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

9x% burns a lot better than 70%. Before I got my bacti-cinerator, very sweet by the way, I used 9x% for my alcohol lamp and you could really see the difference. 70% barely burns, it will, but it can be really inconsistent.



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OfflineKast
old hand
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 222
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Soup]
    #269744 - 03/11/01 05:31 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Why were you burning rubbing alcohol to begin with?

heh, soup, you always seem to get all of the good toys. You must have a lot of funds to play with. I'm jealous.




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Invisibleslither
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Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 365
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Kast]
    #269751 - 03/11/01 05:49 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I know this is sort of off topic, but what kind of alcohol do most people use in alcohol lamps? Denatured, 96%, or everclear?



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InvisibleSoup
enthusiast
Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Kast]
    #269811 - 03/11/01 07:37 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I was burning the rubbing alcohol so that I could flame sterilize scalpels and what not. It's a lot easier than a lighter or fiddling around with a gas stove.

Now even easier is a bacti-cinerator. Needs no explanation. I don't have much money, just find relatively inexpensive ways to do things. I got my bacticinerator for $90 through E-bay. Not cheap, but not $300.



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OfflineShroomzilla
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Texas, home of the longho...
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Soup]
    #269880 - 03/11/01 10:03 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I made my alcohol lamp from a small glass bottle, a strip of cotton material for the wick, bit of aluminum foil for the lid to hold the wick in place [original cap was plastic]. Works just fine and cost nothing. Burns cheap 70% rubbing alcohol at $0.89 cents per quart.



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OfflineKast
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: slither]
    #269944 - 03/11/01 11:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Well, until now I've never heard of anyone burning rubbing alcohol. Everyone I know, including myself, uses denatured alcohol which is extremely cheap and can be found in the paint section of hardware stores.




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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Kast]
    #269967 - 03/11/01 11:54 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

is the 80% alcohol ratio using isopropyl rubbing alcohol from drug stores or the denatured alchol that you use in your lamp? i am confused. i always just use 70% isopropyl straight outta the bottle. spray it and let dry. seems to work for me.
-daniel.




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Invisiblepaddoholland
addict

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: rebelmoon]
    #270045 - 03/12/01 02:05 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I have never said that 70% didn't work!
70% has been standard concentration in laboratories until they found out that 80% was doing more damage. 96% burns a lot better but it are only the flames wich kill the m.o.'s.
That's effective, but without burning, like cleaning the surface of the table your working on! I haven't seen anyone burning burning the surface of a table!!!


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OfflineShroomzilla
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Texas, home of the longho...
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: paddoholland]
    #270066 - 03/12/01 03:00 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

70% iso or pure denatured..doesn't matter, as long as it burns clean it will work, its just a matter of what you have on hand.

Surface disinfection is another matter all together. Alcohol is actually a rather poor at killing spores. Other chemicals like chlorine bleach, iodine, or ammonium chloride are better for surface disinfection. 80% iso alcohol requires 10 minutes contact time to kill 99% of encysted spores...simply wiping don't cut it.

I use tamed iodine [like Betadine] to clean any mixing containers, jars, syringes, anything where you want it clean with ZERO residue. You can get Betadine brand at the drug store, brew shops sell the same stuff under various brands. This is the orange stuff they scrub your skin with before surgery or inserting an IV, also used for cleaning and soaking instruments. Kills 'bout everything but is safe enough to apply to the skin, only drawback is that it will stain any porus surface unless wiped off very well, stains will wash out of clothes.

For countertops/ floors/ sinks I use a quaternary ammonium chloride solition. It comes as a dry powder, used in hospitals to clean surfaces in the operating room, ER, anywhere you need it really clean. This stuff is a bit harder to find, I usually get it from a surplus dealer when I can [cheaper]. You can get it online from medical supply co's for about $20 for a 4lb tub [which will mix up about 120 gallons]. It kills everything [better than bleach] yet doesn't have any nasty choking fumes. It also rinses off pretty well leaving little residue, but if you leave it on, it will continue to disinfect the surface for about two weeks. I use it once a month in the shower and NEVER have a mildew problem, or that funky red basteria that can grow in areas that don't drain completely.

Most people use bleach because its cheap and readily available, but there are tons of problems with bleach. First is the smell/ fumes, it is very bad to breath this stuff at all, much less spraying it in the air like some grow guides suggest. It eventually leaves an impossible to remove residue on anything regularly cleaned with it, and is quite corossive to metal. It can also ruin some vinyl floors, and does a hasty number on any clothing it comes in contact with. It will also release poision gas if mixed with most any common household cleaners.

A note on Lysol: This stuff has been around for ages because it does work...to a point. It is quite safe on most surfaces and and does a good job of general cleaning/ disinfecting bacteria, but there are many types of mold spores it will not touch, and as we know mold spores are the #1 enemy. To be really effective [for what it will kill] it needs to be sprayed on heavy and allowed to set for at least 10 min. Spraying the air is useless, the FTC even made them remove the claim that it "disinfects the air" years ago. The only way to kill any airborne bacteria/spores is with a concentrated vapor of very, very deadly chemicals, nothing you or I could lay our hands on or would ever consider using.



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OfflineMNmyc
enthusiast

Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 175
Loc: MN
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Shroomzilla]
    #270195 - 03/12/01 11:04 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Eau contraire, Shroomzilla. Germicidal lamps sterilize air, and quite effectively too. You just can't expose your skin (or shroooms for that matter) because it shreds nuclear dna to turn mold, bacteria and viruses into microscopic scrambled eggs.

Also shadows and otherwise clear containers may provide a sort of 'bomb shelter' for cantams. to survive the exposure.

There is an ozone issue too, but waiting to enter the space for a 1/2 hour after a 10 minute exposure eliminates the risk from what I understand. Check out the 'heat and chem free sterilization' post. GE sells the bulbs for $25 for a 25w and they run in a standard ballast 18 in. fixture.

Of course, this is all speculation to me for now (I don't own one), but I am getting one and I hopefully will have some comparative results by June.

Help... I'm typing and I can't shut-up!


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OfflineKast
old hand
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 222
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Shroomzilla]
    #270258 - 03/12/01 01:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I know what I'll do, I'll start doing all of my sterile procedures in space. That will solve the problem.

Of course nothing is going to be 100% effective, but mycologists around the world have used diluted bleach and Lysol for years with success so I see no reason to debate its effectiveness. HAZMAT teams even use a 10% bleach solution and tons of Lysol when they disinfect areas. 10% bleach will kill any living organism on the planet (volume relative to size of course). There's no way to achieve 100% sterility, especially outside of laboratory conditions.



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Invisiblepaddoholland
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Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!!
    #270709 - 03/13/01 04:13 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

80% is best when applied without burning, burns better than 70%. 96% burns best but doesn't kill the m.o.
It's better to sterilize all equipment in a pc, and for surface desinfection you should use as said above:
- quater ammonium
- bleach


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OfflineMNmyc
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 175
Loc: MN
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: paddoholland]
    #270713 - 03/13/01 04:28 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I absolutely agree, but I want a lab... How much do you spend on lysol and bleach before it is cost effective to find something else?

Help... I'm typing and I can't shut-up!


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Invisiblepaddoholland
addict

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: MNmyc]
    #270716 - 03/13/01 04:41 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I have my own minilab. It is a flowhood on a table. I always desinfect before turning the flowhood on, after this I work under the flowhood so there is no microbiological contamination. The flowhood has a microfilter.
But I want to make a room with white floor and table. Sterile air circulation and a lockage before entering!!
Cost: a lot



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OfflineShroomzilla
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Texas, home of the longho...
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: paddoholland]
    #270730 - 03/13/01 05:31 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Bleach is used by "hazmat' teams because it is cheap and it works, but it is only getting used once in a particular location, and they are wearing respirators to protect from all the nasties.

They use a combination of QT amonium cleaner and UV lights to sterilize in hospitals because you don't want the nasty fumes choking everyone, and you don't want the residue build-up bleach can leave...or the corroded metal fittings.

UV lights BTW, are only used to "maintain" sterility in unused rooms once all surfaces have been cleaned, they are not used for primary disinfection because its too easy for even a thin layer of dust to "shield" pathogens, it also can't get to anything down in any pores/cracks on a surface. One small 25w tube is plenty for an enclosed work box or glove box, but to do a room you need many larger lamps.

You can actually build a quite effictive UV "hepa" filter. the UV tube is centered in a small diameter duct lined with a reflective material and air is passed through at a given volume based on lamp output and duct area. This will kill about all bacteria, but some mold spores will still make it through, so you still need a mechanical pre or post filter to do a complete job. You can not, however, use a single small tube to disinfect a room's air. Light intensity falls off at an exponential rate the further you get from the bulb, so it will only "clean" the air that is relatively close by. The forced air UV filters have to run the air through a confined space to that there is enough light intensity to do a reasonable job.



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Invisiblepaddoholland
addict

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 317
Loc: the Netherlands
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Shroomzilla]
    #270734 - 03/13/01 05:51 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I know that QT ammonium is also used in the food industrie to desinfect, but I know there are better desinfectants.
I will take my schoolbooks and try to find some other desinfectants because there are more!!
Bleach can also enter plastics so you'll have to clean it afterwards with sterile water.
And shroomzilla is right about the UV-light they also use it in microbiological laboratories where I work!!
Peace and happiness


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OfflineKast
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Registered: 12/01/00
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Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Shroomzilla]
    #270806 - 03/13/01 11:01 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Shroomzilla: And you say that GE sells these UV bulbs? Where could I find one, just a regular hardware store or would I need to go through a microbiology supply company?

Paddo: Did you build your flowhood yourself? I've given thought to doing this, but not so much out of necessity as out of boredom.



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Invisiblerebelmoon
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 204
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: paddoholland]
    #272604 - 03/15/01 08:38 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

bump



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InvisibleSoup
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Registered: 12/13/98
Posts: 29
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: rebelmoon]
    #272638 - 03/15/01 09:16 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Paddoholland,

I can understand why 70 or 80% would kill mo's better when wiped or dunked in it but who cares if it is being burned? Flame is flame. I (or at least I used to) dunk, burn off and keep on flaming til red hot. Then for transfers directly after I dunk and just burn off. I spray with lysol 5 minutes before entering my bathroom which I never sterilize anymore and I have virtually no contamination with agar or grain. Something must be sterilizing my scalpel and keeping it that way and it is rarely a pressure cooker.



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OfflineShroomzilla
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Texas, home of the longho...
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Alcohol 80% better than 96%!! [Re: Soup]
    #272757 - 03/15/01 11:40 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Its all a matter of using what where: You can flame sterilize your scalpel or inoculating loop...but not your counter top or floor. The original post was about what concentration of alcohol works best, the real answer is "none of them" as they take far too long a contact time to be effective for most uses.

"Ethyl alcohol (ethanol) and isopropyl alcohol are frequently used for chemical disinfection. They are mainly used as skin antiseptics and act by "denaturing" or altering the molecular structure of bacterial proteins, destroying the cell. Alcohols kill vegetative forms of bacteria but have no action on spores or viruses." from Sterilization: Methods and Control, Butterworth & Co, 1996.

Alcohol, as noted above, is fine for killing active living bacteria, but is ineffective against spores. While bacterial contamination does occur from time to time, the #1 problem is with mold. Flame sterilizing your needles, scalpels, etc, is the best way, but you have to use other type of effective disinfection for everything else



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