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OfflineAeser
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Rye grains
    #26660973 - 05/09/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So I'm trying to figure out why out-grow makes better grain than me. Lol I did a little agar to grain test to see what colonizes faster and out-grow beats my home made by almost a week. I usually dont use any other additives in mine except a little gypsum but they seem to know something I dont. Any tips? I do the typical soak over night and simmer for about 15-20 mins adding gypsum to the water while simmering.


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Aeser]
    #26660988 - 05/09/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe yours are coming out too wet or too dry.


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Smartattack]
    #26661067 - 05/09/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I usually let min dry in a colander for 2-5 days to get all the moisture off the outside of the grain. Thats one thing iv learned since I started, iv found that grain that is a little bit dryer seems to do better.


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Rye grains [Re: MH5109] * 1
    #26661084 - 05/09/20 10:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

2-5 days?


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Smartattack]
    #26661091 - 05/09/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yea I simmer them for 10-15 min, dump them and then they will sit in a couple colanders for on average 2-5days. Vary rare they will be dry enough in less than 2 days.


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OfflineAeser
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Smartattack]
    #26661110 - 05/09/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I made a rig with a frame lined with a screen and usually spread it out and let it sit for an hour or so. Maybe il try waiting longer for it to dry. It usually has lost all its surface moisture by then though.


Edited by Aeser (05/09/20 10:50 PM)


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Aeser]
    #26661126 - 05/09/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thats just what works for me, each bag is different too some take longer to hydrate and some take longer to dry. Its a kinda touch and feel you loarn as you go. But if they are to wet they end up butsting in the pc and it makes a starchy grain that takes forever to colonize.


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OfflineAeser
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Re: Rye grains [Re: MH5109]
    #26661244 - 05/10/20 12:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah practice makes perfect. Il let my next batch dry a bit longer and see how it goes.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Rye grains [Re: MH5109]
    #26661253 - 05/10/20 12:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You will have significant bacterial growth over that 2-5 day period of time, not only leading to undesired metabolites, but many cycles of additional endospore production.  I believe blackout sent me some literature on sterilization quite some time ago which suggested leaving more than 10 hours between sterilizations (and simmering your grain is a partial sterilization) will lead to another cycle of endospore production.

The grains on the top of your colander will be very dry unless you toss it regularly.  It doesn't take a lot.  Too much GE on a jar can dry out top grains so they won't colonize.

To remove the water from the outside of your grains, spread them out after the colander is done dripping (usually <5min) and the water will steam off, sometimes within 5 minutes, sometimes after a few hours.  I use a really wide tote and sunlight if available, a large screen would be even better.

My guess is either bacterial activity has made your grains a more hostile environment to mycellium, or you have dehydrated your grains way too much with that huge amount of time in the colander.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #26661283 - 05/10/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes they get mixed up 3-4 times a day, and bacteria and all that jazz is killed in the pc cycle, unless I missed something. Im not telling anyone to do what I do, its just the method that works for me and I'm sharing. I have put hydrated grains in the fridge and there were mold spots that started popping up after about a week, so im not saying you are wrong but thats how I do my grain so that I don't get to much undesired moisture inside the jars.


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Rye grains [Re: MH5109]
    #26661331 - 05/10/20 12:45 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Glad it's working for you and you aren't having an issue.  It just seems sub-optimal, and depending on the endospore load of the grain to start with, potentially disastrous.  The germinated bacteria are killed in the PC cycle.  A fraction of the endospores are killed, and many more of the endospores will likely be present after hydrating and letting it sit for days.  Not that it can't work, but you are most likely putting a shorter clock on your grains that you could otherwise have.  Additionally, those days of bacterial growth are on spectrum between nothing and a milky bacillus cesspool in which hardly anything can grow, the further along that curve you are presumably the more putrid and less hospitable the grain will be to mycellium.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #26661353 - 05/10/20 12:56 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Iv literally had jars sit in the pc after the 3hr 15psi cycle for weeks with no problems. Its not like that grain is sitting in a pool of water to promote the undesirable growth, the hulls are drying out. And when you have 18qts of grain it takes a little time. But my pc does a pretty desirable job at sterilization of the grain cuz I have used jars that sat uninoculated for over a month with no problems. Once you open them up different story but if they stay closed they are good.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Aeser]
    #26661544 - 05/10/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Do you rinse your grains first? I fill my big pot with water + strain a few times (using screen held over the top tightly).
Then I let sit over night, strain again.
I add new water, bring to a simmer for only about 10 minutes or so.

Then I strain and every once in a while I come back to shake the pot + let steam up.
Then I pour them into a big tote or onto a plastic sheet to finish steam drying.

Once they are cool I load my jars or bags.

If you aren't rinsing, try that- it gets dirt and all that sticky stuff out of there.
The other thing I suggest is simmering for 10 minutes instead of 15-20.


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Edited by mushpunx (05/10/20 03:52 AM)


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: mushpunx]
    #26661555 - 05/10/20 03:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I typically don't rinse mine, mainly cuz im lazy and most of the water does steam off, but they are still a little wet. I would have many burst grains if I did simmer for that long. I check the hydration by opening up a few grains and biting them in half I usually look to see there is a little bit of white unhydrated starch in the kernels then I get them into the strainer. That is typically about 15min on the stove and I say simmer it may be a little more than a simmer but its not a rolling boil. But every bag is different some take longer and some are done in a shorter time.


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Rye grains [Re: MH5109]
    #26661576 - 05/10/20 03:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

*whoops* !!  :lol:

Sorry I typed 110 - I meant try simmering  for 10 minutes not 15-20


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OfflineAeser
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Re: Rye grains [Re: mushpunx]
    #26663534 - 05/10/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah il try that. 10 min would reduce the amount of bursted grains so I'd love that especially if it works out better. Thx for the tip.


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Anxiety is when your stuck in the future.
Depression is when your stuck in the past.
Happiness is when your stuck in the present.


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #26663851 - 05/11/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
You will have significant bacterial growth over that 2-5 day period of time, not only leading to undesired metabolites, but many cycles of additional endospore production.  I believe blackout sent me some literature on sterilization quite some time ago which suggested leaving more than 10 hours between sterilizations (and simmering your grain is a partial sterilization) will lead to another cycle of endospore production.

The grains on the top of your colander will be very dry unless you toss it regularly.  It doesn't take a lot.  Too much GE on a jar can dry out top grains so they won't colonize.

To remove the water from the outside of your grains, spread them out after the colander is done dripping (usually <5min) and the water will steam off, sometimes within 5 minutes, sometimes after a few hours.  I use a really wide tote and sunlight if available, a large screen would be even better.

My guess is either bacterial activity has made your grains a more hostile environment to mycellium, or you have dehydrated your grains way too much with that huge amount of time in the colander.




That's why we sterilize our grain. Endospore count doesn't matter. The issue here is that bacteria will partially consume the grain and make it all sticky.

OP, you shouldn't be drying for that long. I usually do it in 12-24 hours, but I've been throwing out stuff that was there for more than 48 hours if I forgot about it or had other stuff to do in the meantime. Even if grains are slightly moist after 12-24 hours, the moisture will get absorbed into grain after the PC cycle. Just give it a shake after you take it out of PC and it should be good in a day.


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Re: Rye grains [Re: poisoned]
    #26663895 - 05/11/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I have soaked for 2-5 days before but never dry that long.

If your at a true boil when you strain and dry your grains they will steam dry nicely if spread out on a flat surface like news paper in a 1 inch thick layer. Usually it takes about 1 he max to achieve desired dry kernel.

Then shake the jars after PC to distribute.


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Sockadin]
    #26663904 - 05/11/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don't get them anywhere close to desired dryness in 1h, but 12h does it.


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Re: Rye grains [Re: poisoned] * 1
    #26663912 - 05/11/20 06:51 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Try boiling your water first. Like hard boil, I use my presto and get it to almost lock. Then I dump in my dry unwashed grains and let it roll for about 20-30 @ almost  Like 1psi and then strain and dry.


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OfflineAeser
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Re: Rye grains [Re: mushpunx]
    #26665407 - 05/11/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I do pre rinse the grains until the water pours out clear. I do my best to remove all the bits of twigs as well.


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Anxiety is when your stuck in the future.
Depression is when your stuck in the past.
Happiness is when your stuck in the present.


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OfflineOldManRiver
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Re: Rye grains [Re: Aeser]
    #26665523 - 05/11/20 10:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Loving this topic, folks.  I'm about to do my first batch ever.


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OfflineMH5109
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Re: Rye grains [Re: OldManRiver]
    #26665527 - 05/11/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Just make sure they are dry before you pc them, wet grain sucks, trust me iv done it many times before.


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