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redgreenvines
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26657233 - 05/08/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?
It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.
this may not go with the title of the thread or the OP, but I think it cuts into the core of the matter, that being when we address both the unknown and our own (moral) context to participate conversationally, rather than conversing by knee jerk responses using all the old phrases in a mechanical way.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
#26657353 - 05/08/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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For sure I agree. And I think there is a spectrum there. Ideally, one would like to be as little robotic as possible. But I think it's clear that most people, especially most Americans, are on a kind of "auto-pilot" in their thoughts and actions, unaware of virtually everything. Anyone with the desire to do so can become less robotic, but the kicker is that the the most robotic people are the most oblivious to that robotism.
Certainly, we can cultivate awareness, which is possibly the most important thing. But how much we control of ourselves, even in comparatively more aware circumstances, is certainly a question, and in that sense, it is interesting to me to explore how much "credit," if any, we can really take for our actions, or if it is all more of a participatory flow of which we are concentrations, like vortices in a river.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26657565 - 05/08/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?
It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.
. Some performers specialize in spontaneity. There used to be a TV show where they get a subject and have to improvise. If one can recognize a style each person has, then there is some personal, stamp. . Robin Williams and Peter Sellers were 2 of the most famous & fastest mimics, ever changing personality & accents at unbelievable speed--so the question is: Did they have styles that were recognizably personal? . It is said walking, may be defined as repeatedly falling and catching one self. . Spontaneity may just be a matter of having enough awareness to notice that on a micro level we are never really fully in control. . Tai chi chuan, which is the opposite of acting fast,( during non combat practice), by forcing one to move very slowly, may provide an entry to creating more awareness of the fluid boundary between spontaneity, or that which happens by itself, and control or the bringing of present time awareness to the form to make sure it is within the parameters of correctness.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26657584 - 05/08/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps more succinctly it might be said: A tight ass is a person who wants to get credit for everything, they say (in this instance) whereas a relaxed spontaneous person enjoys the flow of the repartee, and doesn't remember later who said what, or even care. All the laughter was its own reward.
The world is full of both types of people.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26657591 - 05/08/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Some people die quite peacefully. It is certainly an out of control process for which one takes no credit, yet it may be experienced as a relief. Seems an interesting consideration - perhaps getting credit is not what its cracked up to be?
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26657802 - 05/08/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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All very good points.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26657980 - 05/08/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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i'm getting robotic now
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
#26658522 - 05/08/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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yeah DXM can do that
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26660051 - 05/09/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I had another thought. As has been pointed out, it makes little sense to “take credit” for an act of creativity, when one considers it carefully. It just happens. But despite what some have said, I don't think it is a question here of free will, if one wants to bring that up. One’s free will exists to the extent that one is voluntarily doing the activity. The actual origin of the creative fire is outside oneself, very deep. To be creative is to channel that fire, not to create or control it.
Just another couple of cents.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26660079 - 05/09/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Agreed. I’d just add that some are more proficient at channeling it than others - and in various different ways. Likened to honing a craft, or cultivating and sharpening ones ability to do so via practice of the art of it. That’s one angle to it.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26660184 - 05/09/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps consider the painting of Jackson Pollack. He danced with/between control & spontaneity. With flying & dripping paint.
or consider the famous painter Francis Bacon:
"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:
In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "
"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:
All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve. (Francis Bacon)"
http://www.art-quotes.com/auth_search.php?name=Francis+Bacon#.XrcUSxOYUp8
We tend to believe the categories we make up, to describe life, are accurate. But perhaps: "it anint necessarily so"...
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26660315 - 05/09/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Agreed. I’d just add that some are more proficient at channeling it than others - and in various different ways. Likened to honing a craft, or cultivating and sharpening ones ability to do so via practice of the art of it. That’s one angle to it.
Oh yes, absolutely. Being a good artist or writer takes a lot of practice and hard work, and that of course is the result of effort. So it's quite a complicated thing.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26660322 - 05/09/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: Perhaps consider the painting of Jackson Pollack. He danced with/between control & spontaneity. With flying & dripping paint.
or consider the famous painter Francis Bacon:
"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:
In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "
"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:
All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve. (Francis Bacon)"
http://www.art-quotes.com/auth_search.php?name=Francis+Bacon#.XrcUSxOYUp8
We tend to believe the categories we make up, to describe life, are accurate. But perhaps: "it anint necessarily so"...
Yes that also reminds me of Burroughs' method of "cut-up" and "fold-in," which he used for several of his books. He would take an assortment of clippings or writings from various places, mash them up and then cut them apart or fold them upon themselves to create totally novel word combinations. The words themselves were quite random and accidental, but he was quick to point out that the selection of useful combinations was a conscious act. As I recall, some of those cut-up novels are very good and very difficult.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26660404 - 05/09/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Years ago I was interested in Burroughs' method of "cut-up", and read a lot of his books.
He got the "cut-up" method from Brion Gysin (1916 – 1986). Believe they were 'neighbors' & maybe more in perhaps both London, Paris, and Morocco.
Some dates: Burroughs Naked Lunch 1959
These ideas were previously, in the air prior to Burroughs almost total reliance on them. As these dates show. I have included a lot of history of this sort of idea, & a tiny bit about the personalities involved. Perhaps James Joyce or some others should be included, but this is perhaps already too long as others may not share my interests.
Gertrude Stein 1874 – 1946
John Cage: ". Through his studies of Indian philosophy and Zen Buddhism in the late 1940s, Cage came to the idea of aleatoric or chance-controlled music, which he started composing in 1951. The I Ching, an ancient Chinese classic text decision-making tool, which uses chance operations to suggest answers to questions one may pose, became Cage's standard composition tool for the rest of his life. In a 1957 lecture, Experimental Music, he described music as "a purposeless play" which is "an affirmation of life – not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply a way of waking up to the very life we're living".
"In early 1951, Wolff presented Cage with a copy of the I Ching[51]—a Chinese classic text which describes a symbol system used to identify order in chance events. This version of the I Ching was the first complete English translation and had been published by Wolff's father, Kurt Wolff of Pantheon Books in 1950. The I Ching is commonly used for divination, but for Cage it became a tool to compose using chance. To compose a piece of music, Cage would come up with questions to ask the I Ching; the book would then be used in much the same way as it is used for divination. For Cage, this meant "imitating nature in its manner of operation":[52][53] His lifelong interest in sound itself culminated in an approach that yielded works in which sounds were free from the composer's will:
When I hear what we call music, it seems to me that someone is talking. And talking about his feelings, or about his ideas of relationships. But when I hear traffic, the sound of traffic—here on Sixth Avenue, for instance—I don't have the feeling that anyone is talking. I have the feeling that sound is acting. And I love the activity of sound ... I don't need sound to talk to me.[54]
Although Cage had used chance on a few earlier occasions, most notably in the third movement of Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra (1950–51),[55] the I Ching opened new possibilities in this field for him. The first results of the new approach were Imaginary Landscape No. 4 for 12 radio receivers, and Music of Changes for piano. The latter work was written for David Tudor,[56] whom Cage met through Feldman—another friendship that lasted until Cage's death.[n 3] Tudor premiered most of Cage's works until the early 1960s, when he stopped performing on the piano and concentrated on composing music. The I Ching became Cage's standard tool for composition: he used it in practically every work composed after 1951, and eventually settled on a computer algorithm that calculated numbers in a manner similar to throwing coins for the I Ching."
from wiki
and also from wiki
"Silence: Lectures and Writings" From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First edition Silence: Lectures and Writings is a book by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992), first published in 1961 by Wesleyan University Press. Silence is a collection of essays and lectures Cage wrote during the period from 1939 to 1961. The contents of the book is as follows:
"Foreword" (1961) "Manifesto" (1952) "The Future of Music: Credo" (1937) "Experimental Music" (1957) "Experimental Music: Doctrine" (1955) "Composition as Process" (1958), essay in three parts: "Changes" "Indeterminacy" "Communication" "Composition" (1952–1957), essay in two parts: "To Describe the Process of Composition Used in Music of Changes and Imaginary Landscape No. 4" (1952) "To Describe the Process of Composition Used in Music for Piano 21–52" (1957) "Forerunners of Modern Music" (1949) "History of Experimental Music in the United States" (1959) "Erik Satie" (1958) "Edgar Varèse" (1958) "Four Statements on the Dance" (1939–1957) "Goal: New Music, New Dance" (1939) "Grace and Clarity" (1944) "In This Day..." (1956) "2 Pages, 122 Words on Music and Dance" (1957) "On Robert Rauschenberg, Artist, and His Work" (1961) "Lecture on Nothing" (1959) Note that in the "Afternote" to the Lecture on Nothing (Silence, p. 126) Cage states that it was first delivered in 1949 or 50. Most sources give the date of 1950.
"Lecture on Something" (1951) "45' for a Speaker" (1954) "Where Are We Going? and What Are We Doing?" (1961) "Indeterminacy" (1958) "Music Lovers' Field Companion" (1954)
also wiki re Brion Gysin :
"In 1954 in Tangier, Gysin opened a restaurant called The 1001 Nights, with his friend Mohamed Hamri, who was the cook. Gysin hired the Master Musicians of Jajouka from the village of Jajouka to perform alongside entertainment that included acrobats, a dancing boy and fire eaters.[7][8] The musicians performed there for an international clientele that included William S. Burroughs. Gysin lost the business in 1958,[9] and the restaurant closed permanently. That same year, Gysin returned to Paris, taking lodgings in a flophouse located at 9 rue Gît-le-Coeur that would become famous as the Beat Hotel. Working on a drawing, he discovered a Dada technique by accident:
William Burroughs and I first went into techniques of writing, together, back in room No. 15 of the Beat Hotel during the cold Paris spring of 1958... Burroughs was more intent on Scotch-taping his photos together into one great continuum on the wall, where scenes faded and slipped into one another, than occupied with editing the monster manuscript... Naked Lunch appeared and Burroughs disappeared. He kicked his habit with Apomorphine and flew off to London to see Dr Dent, who had first turned him on to the cure. While cutting a mount for a drawing in room No. 15, I sliced through a pile of newspapers with my Stanley blade and thought of what I had said to Burroughs some six months earlier about the necessity for turning painters' techniques directly into writing. I picked up the raw words and began to piece together texts that later appeared as "First Cut-Ups" in Minutes to Go (Two Cities, Paris 1960).[10]
When Burroughs returned from London in September 1959, Gysin not only shared his discovery with his friend but the new techniques he had developed for it. Burroughs then put the techniques to use while completing Naked Lunch and the experiment dramatically changed the landscape of American literature. Gysin helped Burroughs with the editing of several of his novels including Interzone, and wrote a script for a film version of Naked Lunch, which was never produced. The pair collaborated on a large manuscript for Grove Press titled The Third Mind but it was determined that it would be impractical to publish it as originally envisioned. The book later published under that title incorporates little of this material. Interviewed for The Guardian in 1997, Burroughs explained that Gysin was "the only man that I've ever respected in my life. I've admired people, I've liked them, but he's the only man I've ever respected."[11] In 1969, Gysin completed his finest novel, The Process, a work judged by critic Robert Palmer as "a classic of 20th century modernism".[12]"
=================== Re: Gertrude Stein "Carl Van Vechten, Portrait of Gertrude Stein, 1934 Stein's writing can be placed in three categories: "hermetic" works best illustrated by The Making of Americans: The Hersland Family; popularized writing such as The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas; and speech writing and more accessible autobiographical writing of later years, of which Brewsie and Willie is a good example. Her works include novels, plays, stories, libretti and poems written in a highly idiosyncratic, playful, repetitive, and humorous style. Typical quotes are: "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose"; "Out of kindness comes redness and out of rudeness comes rapid same question, out of an eye comes research, out of selection comes painful cattle"; about her childhood home in Oakland, "There is no there there"; and "The change of color is likely and a difference a very little difference is prepared. Sugar is not a vegetable."[citation needed]
These stream-of-consciousness experiments, rhythmical essays or "portraits", were designed to evoke "the excitingness of pure being" and can be seen as literature's answer to visual art styles and forms such as Cubism, plasticity, and collage. Many of the experimental works such as Tender Buttons have since been interpreted by critics as a feminist reworking of patriarchal language. These works were well received by avant-garde critics but did not initially achieve mainstream success. Despite Stein's work on "automatic writing" with William James, she did not see her work as automatic, but as an 'excess of consciousness'.[citation needed]"
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Freedom
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26662419 - 05/10/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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You can imagine a person to take the credit
but like every single thing in your universe
its imaginary
this word game reveals nothing no one knows a single thing
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redgreenvines
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Freedom] 1
#26662827 - 05/10/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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generalize much?
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26663048 - 05/10/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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DQ’s trying to take credit for starting this thread
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass] 2
#26663065 - 05/10/20 07:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: You can imagine a person to take the credit
but like every single thing in your universe
its imaginary
Even if we approach things this way, it’s very rarely skillful to say it’s all imaginary because it’s beyond the point. I get your point though, however, It’s essentially effete.
If we say Absolute truth is half the equation, and relative truth is the other half - and since we operate in both simultaneously (although, there’s not really a division of absolute and relative in reality), Then it’s still just as worthwhile to carry on discussing the nature of taking credit, etc etc. than there is if we don’t carry on with it. Hence, both are fine - but since we are discussing it here, that’s what’s happening.
Labels might be for the birds, but since our species and theirs both share a common ancestor... Might as well play!
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/10/20 07:33 PM)
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pineninja
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26663082 - 05/10/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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There's been a journey undertaken in that post.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
#26663414 - 05/10/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The OP seems to have it backwards: "If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit."
Hard to improve on what the famous painter Francis Bacon said, in regards to this seeming duality:
"In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "
But also::
"All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve."
. However there is an entire literature on accessing the "right brain" to increase creativity. The discussion, in this long thread, is of course mainly dominated by "left brain thinking". Which can never lead to "right brain" creativity ( except in the case of its reaching exhaustion). . Not knowing the freedom and joy of the experiencing of creating, the "left brain" is left studying fossil quotes and old musty dualistic concepts.
. Now perhaps you see why the OP has it backwards --- he equates the slow methodical past oriented linear "left brain" with being more original, than the lightening fast wholistic parallel processing imaginative "right brain". Of course this is what our entire educational system 'wants' to condition us to believe - it makes for good accountants, and factory workers. Whereas being creative is perhaps somewhat scary, as it ventures into the unknown, and dares to loosen control.
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