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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Shoebox Troubleshooting
    #26660110 - 05/09/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hey all! I'm having some very consistent issues that I'm having trouble figuring out. I grow in a closet and have run a few monotubs so far, with mediocre results. I've gone to shoeboxes to see if I can control conditions better, but still it seems I'm on my way to running into the same issues. I've got side pinning and the beginnings of yellowing and matting. Check it out:

Variety: Cubensis B+
Spawn: MS to Rye (I'm thinking this could be leading to contams, always the same problems...)
Bulk sub: Coir/Verm, bucket tek. 1:1 ratio
Closet Temps: Low 70's, stable.
Closet RH: Keeping it in the middle now, ~70, but I've tried everything from 20-95.
Shoeboxes: 6Q. Spawned 5/1 (8 days ago). Lids snapped on, but occasionally popping them off to peek. Once the surface was colonized, I cracked the lids a little for a few days because they looked too wet, and during that time I gave them a very light misting just a few times to keep droplets on the surface. Now leaving the lids closed.

Issues: 1) Getting side pinning again, just like my monos! Also pinning on the bottom of the sub even though it isn't fully colonized.
2) Yellowing and matting of surface is beginning, just like my monos. There's a subtle odor that is slightly off of pure fresh mycelium.

As for 1, I really don't know, and that's what I'd really like help with.

As for 2, I suspect my spore syringes are bringing the same kind of bacteria to every jar of spawn I make. Some jars have clearly had yellowing in them, but even clean looking ones yellow quickly once I spawn them. I've got a bunch of jars growing from clones to agar so hopefully I don't have to deal with this any more soon.

Can anybody help with the side pin issue? I feel like I've tried every variation of FAE/humidity/misting ratios and I just keep getting the same thing.

Thanks in advance, I love this forum :thumbup:



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OfflineLikeMyc
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain] * 1
    #26660166 - 05/09/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The only thing that has eliminated side pins for me was to make the sub just under field capacity, lighly packing it especially on the edges, and spray the surface at spawning so that the surface is more ideal than the sides.


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Offlineexzile
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc]
    #26660179 - 05/09/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I cut up black garbage bags and lay those down before pouring in sub. Stops side pinning completely


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Offlinehazyhorse
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: exzile]
    #26660201 - 05/09/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

for side pins, the best way to eliminate those is gonna be keeping surface conditions optimal. liners can def help but i’ve found that if you just keep your surface decently misted side pins won’t happen. i’ve done what  likemyc suggested by misting the sub a bit at spawn & i think it helps too


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OfflineLikeMyc
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc] * 1
    #26660218 - 05/09/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I despise liners although a ton of people have success with them, I just dont want to bother with that extra step.

As far as contamination and overlay: I don't see any contam. The yellow is the beginning of overlay and yellow fluid may be mycelium metabolites.

Looks like overlay is starting. Do you have decent air circulation in your closet? Are you misting from far away? Are your shoeboxes occluded? Was FAE restricted somehow during colonization of the sub? Are they receiving sufficient light? Casing?


Edited by LikeMyc (05/09/20 03:18 PM)


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Invisiblewoofwoof
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc]
    #26660283 - 05/09/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I have noticed that using a top layer and patting the surface down until really nice and level really helps. Check out ShaperDreamers SFF Shoebox Factory tek, this was a game changer for me.

Also, sounds like the issue with yellowing is going from MS to grains. I think you will have much more success with your agar.

Also if you can try taking it out of the closet and into a more open area, it could also be your environment. In my experience, I had to dial in my shoeboxes by moving them to different spots until I found the sweet spot


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc]
    #26660301 - 05/09/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'm no expert, but as far as I knonw liners and keeping surface conditions optimal is what helps to avoid side and bottom pins.

Quote:

LikeMyc said:
The only thing that has eliminated side pins for me was to make the sub just under field capacity, lighly packing it especially on the edges, and spray the surface at spawning so that the surface is more ideal than the sides.




Do you also spray the surface if you've recently dunked the substrate like after the first flush. If so, do you do it directly after dunking or do you wait?


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OfflineLikeMyc
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26660326 - 05/09/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I don't dunk, I saturate the surface by spray. I get some side pins after the first flush because of the substrate shrinking but very few. I try not to let the over spray hit the side gaps after the first flush. This is where a lining helps but it I find a lining more of a hassle than picking side pins.


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc]
    #26660391 - 05/09/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It looks like it may need slightly more air.

I’ve done tons of bacterial shoeboxes and all that happens is most of the time is some weird yellow knots and some mutant mushrooms but otherwise fine.


Is that a 6 quart shoebox? Might be the picture but it seems taller. With my sterilite shoeboxes plastic grocery bags fit in perfectly for liners. Takes five seconds.

Packing the edges down when you make it can help side pins but the main thing is to just keep the conditions good. It takes a while to really get an eye for it though.


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OfflineFarnaby1984
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc]
    #26661588 - 05/10/20 04:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LikeMyc said:
I don't dunk, I saturate the surface by spray. I get some side pins after the first flush because of the substrate shrinking but very few. I try not to let the over spray hit the side gaps after the first flush. This is where a lining helps but it I find a lining more of a hassle than picking side pins.




Ok I see. It makes sense that one should avoid the water reaching the side gaps.

Do you do this by directly spraying the substrate where you want the water to go or does it also work letting the mist fall on the substrate (to avoid pooling).


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OfflineLikeMyc
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Farnaby1984]
    #26661847 - 05/10/20 08:17 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Since we are talking about rehydrating, I mist until it pools. Any excess  water still standing after an hour is removed.

I don't want to hijack OPs thread.


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: LikeMyc] * 1
    #26662903 - 05/10/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you everybody for your input.

As for the liner suggestionβ€”β€”It seems that lots of growers do okay without a liner, and a few very experienced people have said that the liner is more like a crutch for having less than ideal surface conditions. Even if it's a nuisance now, I'd like to learn how to dial things in close to perfect and also avoid more plastic waste.

Quote:

LikeMyc said:
I despise liners although a ton of people have success with them, I just dont want to bother with that extra step.

As far as contamination and overlay: I don't see any contam. The yellow is the beginning of overlay and yellow fluid may be mycelium metabolites.

Looks like overlay is starting. Do you have decent air circulation in your closet? Are you misting from far away? Are your shoeboxes occluded? Was FAE restricted somehow during colonization of the sub? Are they receiving sufficient light? Casing?




Thanks for the responses LikeMyc, here are answers to your questions.

The few times I've misted it's been from very far away, letting just the smallest droplets rain down, but the yellowing is progressing despite not having misted at all for several days now.

The shoeboxes have the lids snapped on right now (which multiple teks suggest is plenty for colonization), but I did crack them for a few days once the surface was totally colonized. I closed them back up because the surface would rather quickly lose it's tiny water droplets when they were cracked. Closet has a small but powerful fan that turns on for 15m every 2 hours (it would be more constant if it didn't move so much air).

There's ambient light coming from the monos in the closet. I added a thin coir/verm top layer to one shoebox but not the other, and they each have the same issues.

Yellowing is progressing more quickly now, and the yellowing myc seems less fluffy than other spots. Side pins are growing just as fast as top pins, and there are more on the sides.



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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: woofwoof]
    #26662917 - 05/10/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

woofwoof said:
I have noticed that using a top layer and patting the surface down until really nice and level really helps. Check out ShaperDreamers SFF Shoebox Factory tek, this was a game changer for me.

Also, sounds like the issue with yellowing is going from MS to grains. I think you will have much more success with your agar.

Also if you can try taking it out of the closet and into a more open area, it could also be your environment. In my experience, I had to dial in my shoeboxes by moving them to different spots until I found the sweet spot




Good advice, woofwoof. From what I've gathered, experimentation is key when it comes to environment (and most other things mycology, eh?). I'd love for them to thrive in the closet but maybe they'll have to come read me bedtime stories on my nightstand for a little while.

One thing I could certainly have done better is leveled the surface. It isn't "unlevel," but it certainly isn't perfectly flat. I see so many people recommend this, but I still haven't been able to find why this might be so important. The only thing I can imagine is that it would prevent water from pooling. Anybody have a hypothesis as to why flattening the surface is so important?

I do plan on my next shoeboxes and monos to try compressing the sides slightly and misting the top before I set it to incubate. It seems a fair number of people have luck with these techniques.


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26663013 - 05/10/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The yellowing and the stuff going on with the myc looks like it’s from bacteria. It’s not usually a big deal ime. Usually when I’ve had it I won’t see anything until there’s a lot of knots, and then some will get yellowish and swell up and there’s mutants but the flushes are usually still good.



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Edited by A.k.a (05/10/20 06:57 PM)


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26663369 - 05/10/20 09:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
The yellowing and the stuff going on with the myc looks like it’s from bacteria. It’s not usually a big deal ime. Usually when I’ve had it I won’t see anything until there’s a lot of knots, and then some will get yellowish and swell up and there’s mutants but the flushes are usually still good.






Thanks, A.K.A. I've also noticed that my monos with the same problem do eventually fruit decently. If anything what I've noticed as being the downside to whatever is going on here is a slow fruiting process and a high number of funky bluish/fuzzy aborts, many of which abort a bit past the pin stage. No mutants, thoughβ€”β€”that photo is quite curious.


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26669064 - 05/13/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'll just keep updating here for those with similar questions who eventually stumble across this thread.

Tops of shoeboxes have been left snapped on for 5 days, boxes spawned 12 days ago. Keeping lids snapped has made surface moisture look perfect to my eye, but pins are starting to get long and stringy, and there is a little bit of water starting to accumulate in the bottom of the boxes. I suspect both of these are indicators that they need a tad more FAE. Again, closet RH and temps are both mid-70's, and a fan kicks on for 15m every 2 hours. Today I decided to flip the lids of the shoeboxes to allow more passive FAE, and I gave them each a quick fan when I did. Of course, I'm looking for a tek that requires very little maintenance, so I'm going to leave them like this for another 5 days without touching them just to see how they fare.

Yellowing doesn't seem to be getting worse, but there is still a subtle and slightly acrid odor when I first crack the lid on the bins. Sides and bottom are still forming a few new pins, but I suspect this might stop now that I have a bunch of knots on the surface that should blow up fast with the added FAE.

Curious if anyone thinks I'm doing this wrong :smile: :thumbup:  :confused: :thumbdown:



Edited by Rich Ryegrain (05/13/20 06:04 PM)


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26669114 - 05/13/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Looks pretty good. I think it’s holding moisture enough that flipped lid or maybe even slightly crooked will be perfect.


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26679846 - 05/18/20 08:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the feedback, AKA. I had the same feelingβ€”lids are now upside down and slightly crooked, closet humidity around 50% seems to be keeping them moist enough, too. I'm going as low as possible with RH to try to give them a chance to fight whatever this contaminant is.

Despite seemingly having conditions really dialed in the closet for the first time, the fruits are showing very upsetting signs of contamination. Yellowing of the mycelium hasn't progressed at all, but fruit growth is slow and many fruits are showing signs of what I believe to be verticillium or pseudomonias infection.

The upsetting part is that fruits are aborting or ceasing to grow very late in the game, some over 1.5'' tall. This is exactly what I've had in my monotubs. Brown spotting turning to splotching low on the stem, blueing, drying and wrinkling of caps, and very thin stipes wasting away just below the caps.







Right now I'm going for maximum FAE and minimum humidity so the myc can have an advantage over the bacteria. My hypothesis is that all my syringes are contaminated, but I'm spawning new shoeboxes tonight with a different brand of coir to see if maybe it's the coir that's contaminated. Pretty sure that's all I can do with these MS syringe jars, but I'm way open to ideas.

I'm considering posting in the contaminants forum at this point since this thread is starting to wander, just continuing to update here for posterity.


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26680478 - 05/19/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They look good but definitely need way more air.


It’s got pseudomonas or whatever on the stem but that’s not a big deal usually.


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Edited by A.k.a (05/19/20 06:51 AM)


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26680955 - 05/19/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the response, AKA. My first thought with the long stems was that they needed more air, but the lids are already cracked pretty wide and a pretty strong fan moves air around the closet for 15m every 2 hours. I also open the closet at least 3x/day for FAE. My monotubs have had the spotting, blueing and aborting, but they haven't had stringy growth. Could they really need that much more air? My only other option would be to have them in my bedroom, with like 10% humidity.

Things are getting worse....




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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26680967 - 05/19/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

My rooms got 8-15% humidity 90% of the time. Never been higher than 30 for a couple days when it was raining.

You just have to learn how to dial in the air exchange.


I only do shoeboxes and underbeds which are just giant shoeboxes. I keep the lids on with one of the short ends unsnapped so it still looks closed, or dubbing works too.

Underbeds I’ll dub or either loosely set the lid on top.


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Edited by A.k.a (05/19/20 11:59 AM)


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26682396 - 05/20/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Man, looks like I have some more reading to do. It's amazing to me that you can get enough FAE and still maintain surface conditions with ambient RH as low as you have. It's reassuring to know that it can be done, though! Thanks again for all the advice.


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Offlinehazyhorse
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26682541 - 05/20/20 04:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

it just comes down to how often you end up having to mist/how loose you leave your kids really. adding a casing/pseudo casing can help keep the moisture up too


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: hazyhorse]
    #26682925 - 05/20/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah top layer makes a big difference.

I’m not sure but I think having low rh helps with air exchange.

I’ve never had air problems even when I’ve kept the lid snapped on all the way through fruiting.


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26682992 - 05/20/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting thought about lower RH resulting in more gas exchange, AKA. I suppose the lower it is the greater difference in density between outside air and inside air would result in more vigorous mixing, eh? Wow, so thinking about it that way, maybe the low RH could be one of my environment's advantages for something like shoeboxes or unmodified monos...... Interesting indeed!

I spawned my last 2 MS jars to shoeboxes yesterday and I'm keeping them in the closet--temps around 70, RH 10-20%, ambient sunlight all day. 1:1 ratio, coir and verm, 1/4'' top layer, lids snapped on for now. Excited to see how they compare to the closet boxes.

There were some significant metabolites present in the spawn jars, just like all my other MS jars. I still suspect syringe contamination is a big piece of this puzzle, but time will tell. I'll be spawning my first a2g jars very soon and I'm stoked to see how they measure up.


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26683221 - 05/20/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i think that RH & air exchange is what makes pan cyans so hard to grow. from what i've read you basically need constant air exchange along with incredibly high RH on the substrate level. that's why the pan growers have such crazy setups for fruiting

bod says monitoring RH doesn't matter & i believe it. as long as you maintain good surface conditions you could live in a desert & grow these things. once you get it dialed in you'll definitely find unmodified tubs easy

the agar jars should turn out well!! i'm excited for you. using agar changes up the game significantly


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: hazyhorse]
    #26683401 - 05/20/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I had an easy time with pans so far and I think in part it was cuz of my super low rh.


At first I thought it was horrible cuz everything constantly dried out but now that I know how to use it correctly it’s an advantage.

I can crank evaporation up to a rate not possible with higher humidity.


lol the first time we had rain for a couple days and rh went way up I couldn’t figure out why everything was staying so wet.


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: A.k.a]
    #26685720 - 05/21/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i’m curious to try them some day! i could definitely see low RH making it easier to maintain the balances pans need

same here!! it’s dry as fuck where i live, & at first i hated it bc it seemed like my tubs were dry after an hour of being cracked. now that i can dial it in, it just means more constant FAE & evaporation off the sub. i may have to mist more often than others but i enjoy taking care of my mushies so it’s not a big deal

lmfao that had to have thrown you for a loop


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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: hazyhorse]
    #26686274 - 05/21/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So, all that said, here's a question for you gents: Is there any point at all to keeping RH artificially high in my closet? It seems that if I don't, I either have to mist every few hours or keep tops snapped on to reduce evaporation. My intuition says that keeping lids cracked will create the most FAE, and that is ideal, so I should just have humidity as high as it needs to be to keep surface conditions prime with the morning and evening misting that I'm able to provide. Is this wrong thinking?


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Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: Rich Ryegrain]
    #26686328 - 05/21/20 06:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Id disagree and say it could definitely be bad or bacterial spawn, in the first 2 pictures was me saying the same thing , had the lid flipped and also turned so it got a lot of fresh air, and they all grew little babies, the third picture is my first shoebox after getting clean agar and putting it to grain. That’s with the same room conditions and I didn’t have to flip the lid or anything just left it on but not clipped down. Bad spawn can give you babies, do a clone on agar and try again.
Just my 2cents





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InvisibleRich Ryegrain
Hyphal Knot
I'm a teapot


Registered: 04/08/20
Posts: 34
Re: Shoebox Troubleshooting [Re: DeckardCain]
    #26686418 - 05/21/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hahaaaaaa Deckard Cain I love your name and avatar. Takes me back....

Thanks for shining another ray of hope on things. Here's what I'm dealing with as of today... there's been almost no growth for 5 days for either pins or larger fruits, and many of the larger fruits are aborting pretty hard. Spotting is present on almost every fruit. Can't wait to get these a2g jars spawned and really see what's going on here.



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