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AroundtheSon
Learning to See



Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4,427
Loc: Midwest.
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my mom always said, Love is a verb. It's not easy to describe running in detail or understand why some people love to run. Love is the same. You have to do it to really understand it. It is not enough to philosophize and ponder, it is action. you think everyone else is crazy when they dance until you dance crazy.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,596
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 9 minutes, 9 seconds
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Damn, thats some wisdom right there. When you love someone, you know it. There is no question. Theres just a knowing.
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Psion
Sage
Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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bringing up this quote from the video game, The Witness, yet again, because of how freaking applicable it is and it cannot be emphasized enough:
"We have two kinds of knowledge which I call symbolic and intimate. I do not know whether it would be correct to say that reasoning is only applicable to symbolic knowledge, but the more customary forms of reasoning have been developed for symbolic knowledge only. The intimate knowledge will not submit to codification and analysis, or, rather, when we attempt to analyze it the intimacy is lost and replaced by symbolism.
For an illustration let us consider Humour. I suppose that humour can be analyzed to some extent and the essential ingredients of the different kinds of wit classified. Suppose that we are offered an alleged joke. We subject it to scientific analysis as we would a chemical salt of doubtful nature, and perhaps after careful consideration we are able to confirm that it really and truly is a joke. Logically, I suppose, our next procedure would be to laugh.
But it may certainly be predicted that as a result of this scrutiny that we shall have lost all inclination we ever had to laugh at it. It simply does not do to expose the workings of a joke. The classification concerns a symbolic knowledge of humour which preserves all the characteristics of a joke except its laughableness. The real appreciation must come spontaneously, not introspectively.
I think this is a not unfair analogy for our mystical feeling for Nature, and I would even apply it to our mystical experience of God. There are some to whom the sense of a divine presence irradiating the soul is one of the most obvious things of experience. In their view, a man without this sense is to be regarded as we regard a man without a sense of humour. The absence is a kind of mental deficiency. We may try to analyze the experience as we analyze humour, and construct a theology, or it may be an atheistic philosophy...
But let us not forget that the theology is symbolic knowledge, whereas the experience is intimate knowledge. And as laughter cannot be compelled by the scientific exposition of the structure of a joke, so a philosophic discussion of the attributes of God (or an impersonal substitute) is likely to miss the intimate response of the spirit which is the central point of the religious experience."
-Arthur Eddington, 1927
love most definitely falls in the latter category. as does the experience of trusting in the universe to provide for the things that you cannot manage yourself.
"God helps those who helps themselves" applies here. you do what you can, and God, in his/her/its multifaceted divine wildness, provides opportunities to help you in your growth. but it's a learning experience, a classroom - you cannot expect and WILL NOT get A+ grades and sunshine stickers handed out to you for free. you gotta put in your best efforts.
only those that do, will be given the hints and materials they need to build the dreams they desire.
and the learning never ends.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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My parents do Christianity right. Some are more adept at embodying the highest good and teachings from that religious tradition than others.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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AroundtheSon
Learning to See



Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4,427
Loc: Midwest.
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The remnant remains!
It is still true, if a man seeks he shall find. If he seeks "god" he will. God is love, no? If he seeks a thread to argue his views. He will find it. If one thinks they already found, they will not seek. Why seek what is found?
Enough seed has been cast here to feed china.
Wishing EVERYONE enough!
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Thanatos10
Stranger


Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
#26658218 - 05/08/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psion said: see, the thing with religion is - it's not even wrong. it's unprovable. it's what's called unfalsifiable, and that's why it bothers you - because it's not logical. if something cannot be proven false, it cannot be considered in the realm of science at all - it's an entirely different thing, the realm of fluff and unicorns, of magic and what ifs. play with it, be entertained by it, maybe gain some wisdom by it, but by gods do not mistake it for scientific fact, because it is not and cannot be scientific fact, any more than you can hammer a nail with a fairy!
and i struggled with my own sexual preferences for many years, even after i rejected my religion and accepted what science had to say about sexual orientation - that it's something that's innate and normal, that it's incredibly widespread throughout the animal kingdom (if not every species has gays, then it's been documented in thousands upon thousands of different animals, from lions to penguins to goats, oh my), and that there's nothing wrong with me for admiring a guy instead of a girl - it's the color of the soul in the inside that matters.
instead of worrying about the ultimate nature of reality and such ridiculously impossibly huge questions to life, the universe and everything, you should probably start by working with the basic questions like - what is it like to love another person? how can i learn to love myself for what i am, without reservations? what fun things can i try today!?!
you need to learn to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. those huge questions to realities ultimate nature can wait, and will reveal themselves in time - but they won't reveal themselves if you don't put in the basic effort to better yourself first!
just trust me on this. i tried the same thing you did, trying to tackle the hard stuff first, and it never leads anywhere. but if you try to work on yourself first, and trust in Grace to guide you, it's like you're in a dark place, with a road that is dimly lit a few paces around you. you see the occasional sign that hints of possibilities that you can chose where to go, and you can head in those directions...but the way is still dark, except for that few paces. you literally have to walk that dark path, trusting in those few signs that indicate you're going in the right direction still, until you finally reach a dazzling view and you realize: this is it. i've reached it. i've found where i wanted to go, and it's amazing!
just focus on what you can change, focus on what you desire, and work toward that goal, trusting that the universe will provide opportunities to help you toward that desire. it may not be easy, certainly not always fast, and the opportunities it gives may not always be obvious at first - sometimes it may even seem counterproductive! but eventually... you'll reach there.
I find it hard to trust the universe as a guide when so many people are starving, abused, overworked, and any other manner of unpleasantness. Makes me wonder if the anti natalists are right and that life isn’t worth starting. I mean if you never existed you would have to worry or be bothered by any of this stuff having to do with life.
As for the big questions I would figure that the very foundation upon which my life is built should at least be solid, not as airy as anything else. Every interaction is poisoned by the pondering of whether they are real or not. You say it doesn’t matter but it does. It does matter a great deal because otherwise I’m just a sad individual pretending that figments of his imagination actually care and love him and he does the same in return but deep down he knows it’s a lie.
In a sense the small stuff doesn’t matter if in the end it was all for naught. It’s like a war that despite heavy loses ends in a stalemate, it’s an utter waste of time and resources and end result is worse than defeat.
How can I learn to love another person if I don’t even know if they are real? How can I do anything that matters if I don’t know for sure there is an external reality? If there isn’t then it’s all pointless, a waste of time because all of it was in my head, nothing I do has any impact in the same way that a lucid dream has no effect on reality. The only saving grace I have in my dreams is that I don’t know I’m dreaming. But if I ever learned I was then it would ruin it, because I know the affections of the people are false, my impact on them is zero because they essentially react how my mind wants them to,, and anything I did would vanish on waking. At least in reality I can accept that my help wouldn’t last forever but that I at least helped another, with solipsism I don’t even get that.
If solipsism were true then it would be the end of life for me. I have tried in every conceivable way to convey the terror I feel as to why I am fearful of it being true and why I say I was better off never hearing of it. That is why I would pay any price to be rid of it (bar my life, that seems counter productive).
This very conversation is an act of faith in itself but it’s exhausting to have that faith all the time when living my life and it’s a losing battle.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Sake Psychic sig


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,779
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
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Thanatos10, have you ever tried shrooms?
-------------------- Check out my new psytrance track "Sake Psychic": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xyEPGfiDrA ;
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oculodextro

Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 1,205
Loc: Space is the Place
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said: Thanatos10, have you ever tried shrooms?
I think we need some MDMA motherfucker needs to feel the love!
But yea shrooms would be a great way to quiet that ego.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 69,596
Loc: The Inexpressible...
Last seen: 9 minutes, 9 seconds
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Quote:
oculodextro said:
Quote:
lifeiswhatyoumake said: Thanatos10, have you ever tried shrooms?
I think we need some MDMA motherfucker needs to feel the love!
But yea shrooms would be a great way to quiet that ego.
Why not both and have ALL the LOVE
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
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Psion
Sage
Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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are games pointless to play because they have no point?
puritans may argue that yes, games are sin and work is worship - but we don't really see people walking around in severe black coats everywhere, wearing somber expressions, refusing to laugh now do we?
well ok maybe we see the occasional black suit and grumpy frown...but what's the point in living like that?
you see my point? what's the point in anything?
there is none. except the points you create. life is a game. have fun! enjoy yourself! hear! feel! think! learn and grow! take part of its joys and pleasures! you can just sit there and cower and wonder why bother, or you can simply say "who cares if there's a point or not!" and do it anyways!
because regardless if other people "exist" or whether you're the only one, regardless of the exact nature of reality... there's no point to life except the ones you create. you can live life according to whatever rules whatever holy book tells you to...if that's your pleasure. or you can simply wing it like i do, going by your personal sense of justice, trying to make the world a better place for everyone.
and i should also mention... i've actually had my personality split before. when i learned to accept myself for what i was, i still was full of anger issues - how my family and friends had treated me, not accepting me for what i was, lingering doubts over whether i had made the right decision...
i remember when i was watching the anime Naruto, where he eventually confronts Kurama and fights him for control over his chakra...but also tells him he wants to eventually learn to quell Kurama's hatred as well. when i saw that, i felt a sort of resonance within myself - my own anger was like a monstrous beast inside me, constantly fighting to control my actions. i decided to confront it despite my fears - demanding its name, challenging it, and in the end...fighting not against it, but for accepting it as part of me. he named himself Byakko, taking the aspect sometimes of a tiger, sometimes of a half-tiger humanoid.
we wound up with an uneasy truce, deciding not to fight each other... and deciding to talk to each other. after a week, we even started to become friendly with each other... to the point where he started to add funny commentary on what was going on. his personality would be gruff and sarcastic, but surprisingly tender sometimes. he would eventually go from being something that i was constantly fighting to my greatest support, encouraging me whenever i was down, pointing out things i might miss, offering different points of views... so when you say that cultivating figments of imagination are worthless... i can't help but laugh, because it's anything but. even those "figments" have their own personalities and feelings. i know this from personal experience. Byakko's actions and comments have constantly surprised and delighted me - even though its a relationship that's only in my head, he's no less real than a person i meet in everyday life.
however, on an extreme high dose dmt trip a year ago, he suddenly "disappeared". I don't know why this is the case, but after that trip he went silent. I don't feel incomplete, however... It's almost like he's still here, but... hiding? For the longest time i wanted to cry because he was gone, and i missed him so much... but, after many months i think he pulled off this vanishing act to force me to learn to be independent of him, to develop on my own. at least, that's how i feel. I suspect he will show up one day again, when i have grown strong enough to stand on my own, so that he won't accidentally "subsume" my personality with his own.
So yeah... despite being just a figment of my own personality, he has his own prerogatives and whims. that was NOT something i would've planned or asked him to do, and that seriously threw me for a loop, like seeing a loved one suddenly pull a vanishing act.
Edited by Psion (05/08/20 08:54 PM)
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Thanatos10
Stranger


Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
#26659878 - 05/09/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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You need to reread my reply because I don’t think you understand why figments don’t matter, along with understanding why it’s such a problem for me this solipsism.
As for drugs, they don’t change anything before and they won’t now
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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I wouldn’t be so sure of that last bit (in regard to psychedelics) - but then again they aren’t for everyone , so I can understand the sentiment.
Btw, did you get a chance to check out Shiguri?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Sake Psychic sig


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,779
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
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This person, Thanatos10, is consciously ignoring my questions regarding whether he's tried shrooms or not, which is ironic because we are on a website dedicated to magic mushrooms. Why? Is he scared of what's on the other side? Thanatos is asking, "what is love?" He is also asking many, many questions about life in general from a philosophical standpoint. They are good questions. These are the type of questions that shrooms are great at helping answer. I'm going to put no more energy into trying to help him because he doesn't seem to want it.
I will end this post with the following message to you, Thanatos10: it seems like you think you know it all, but you're fooling yourself. You'll realize one day when you expand your mind. One way to expand your mind is to take shrooms. You should try them and report back.
-------------------- Check out my new psytrance track "Sake Psychic": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xyEPGfiDrA ;
Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (05/09/20 12:31 PM)
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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There isn’t just 1 take on psychedelics, and people who have experimented only a few times and made up their mind about it I tend to view as ignorant, compared to what I’ve known by them and experienced. That being not merely a scrambling of reality, but they aren’t for everyone. And no one has to take them.
However...
I’d like to see what he would have to say for himself following 6 grams dried fungal tea after doing it 10x times spread out over an appropriate amount of time - but that’s just me 
Lmao.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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lifeiswhatyoumake
Sake Psychic sig


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 16,779
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: There isn’t just 1 take on psychedelics, and people who have experimented only a few times and made up their mind about it I tend to view as ignorant, compared to what I’ve known by them and experienced. That being not merely a scrambling of reality, but they aren’t for everyone. And no one has to take them.
However...
I’d like to see what he would have to say for himself following 6 grams dried fungal tea after doing it 10x times spread out over an appropriate amount of time - but that’s just me 
Lmao.
I feel you. I mean, is it too much to just answer yes or no the question, though? It's a super relevant question here. I'm not saying shrooms are the ultimate answer. I'm just saying they are a great tool for showing one the path forward they are likely seeking for personal growth, especially one that is philosophical, which is exactly what Thanatos is speaking of. And yes,psychs are certainly not for everyone and I would never pressure some one to take them if they didn't want to.
I still have never tried shroom tea. I always just put the shrooms in my mouth and chew.
-------------------- Check out my new psytrance track "Sake Psychic": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xyEPGfiDrA ;
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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I know that...but what are ya gunna do when someone’s already made up their mind about it
But you also have to remember not all psychedelics are beneficial for everybody. For some it can be detrimental to their health / mind.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/09/20 01:08 PM)
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Psion
Sage
Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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you say i keep missing the point about figments, but i'm telling you from personal experience, that figments do not work the way you're imagining them.
figments or no, whimsies of your mind or no, they still have their own distinct personalities. they don't just "pretend" to care about you. they actually can pull fast ones on you, surprise you just like a real person, and reveal insights that you didn't think of yourself.
i've cultivated a relationship with an actual figment, knowing it was one, and it was one of the most meaningful and worthwhile experiences of my life. so when you say that it's pointless to cultivate relationships with people, when they might just be figments and a waste of time... i'm telling you point blank, it doesn't matter if they're not "real people" or not. it's still not a waste of time.
they're still real, regardless if they're real or not.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
#26660162 - 05/09/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Always something more to learn.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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InnerWisdom



Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,936
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 6 days, 17 hours
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
#26660172 - 05/09/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psion said: you say i keep missing the point about figments, but i'm telling you from personal experience, that figments do not work the way you're imagining them.
figments or no, whimsies of your mind or no, they still have their own distinct personalities. they don't just "pretend" to care about you. they actually can pull fast ones on you, surprise you just like a real person, and reveal insights that you didn't think of yourself.
i've cultivated a relationship with an actual figment, knowing it was one, and it was one of the most meaningful and worthwhile experiences of my life. so when you say that it's pointless to cultivate relationships with people, when they might just be figments and a waste of time... i'm telling you point blank, it doesn't matter if they're not "real people" or not. it's still not a waste of time.
they're still real, regardless if they're real or not.
This is what I among others have been saying all along. Let's see how it sinks in this time
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Thanatos10
Stranger


Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
#26660397 - 05/09/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psion said: you say i keep missing the point about figments, but i'm telling you from personal experience, that figments do not work the way you're imagining them.
figments or no, whimsies of your mind or no, they still have their own distinct personalities. they don't just "pretend" to care about you. they actually can pull fast ones on you, surprise you just like a real person, and reveal insights that you didn't think of yourself.
i've cultivated a relationship with an actual figment, knowing it was one, and it was one of the most meaningful and worthwhile experiences of my life. so when you say that it's pointless to cultivate relationships with people, when they might just be figments and a waste of time... i'm telling you point blank, it doesn't matter if they're not "real people" or not. it's still not a waste of time.
they're still real, regardless if they're real or not.
I keep saying you have to reread what I already said about them since it addresses the point you are attempting to make. Figments have no personality, since they don’t really exist. They are mere phantoms of your mind. You aren’t really interacting with anyone. You didn’t cultivate a relationship, it was all a delusion. It does matter if they are real or not because if they are real then they have personality, affections, and it’s not some sad psychosis to cope with cosmic loneliness.
Figments are not real. Their words don’t matter, their “love” doesn’t matter either, because it never was. I don’t know how else to put it.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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