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OfflinePsion
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Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
Last seen: 5 days, 11 hours
Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26656337 - 05/07/20 11:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Psion said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

You are getting away from solipsism. The problem is that I can not verify the existence of any of those externalities you mention. It could all just be figments of my mind, being utterly meaningless. I could believe your words but the word here is belief. I (according to solipsism) cannot truly know such things to be so.




of course i'm getting away from solipsism. it's a divide by 0 problem, one of those things in math that you right NS as the answer for. you do not try to solve such a problem because there's no way of solving it, and there's no point in trying to solve it.

and i already pointed out that even if we were figments of your mind, it still isn't meaningless to cultivate such relationships, any more than it is to get to know yourself better. an martial artist does not get better at combat by netflix and chill - they do it by practice and attuning to the various parts of their body, by getting to know the individual pieces of themselves. that's not pointless at all! that's self improvement, and by improving their bodies health, they also improve their mental health as well!

what affects one part affects all.

and stop trying to pretend that some almighty brainiac that invented every science invention that ever existed. you know better than that. you're just a person. we're all just people, each with our own flaws and talents. all imperfect, seeking each other out, helping each other up to grow stronger and improve ourselves.

at least in an ideal world.




Again you keep missing the point. Also it is meaningless to cultivate relationships with figments because they aren’t real. They don’t feel and don’t feel for you. Also I can attest that improving the body doesn’t help with mental health.

Again you are still using terms that cannot be validated to be true or exist lie other people or just others. Why assume additional entities? Isn’t solipsism the simplest explanation?

And what of my dreams of “seeing the future”? Could that not be a case for shaping reality? How else could I dream of something and having it happen later on?




your point is that there is no point. you cannot argue for a non argument - that's nonsensical, illogical.

moreover, your argument that figments cannot feel is also illogical - if you are the only being, then where do these "other" figments come from? the only logical conclusion is that you are making them up. if you are making them up, then they are part of you. if they are part of you, they, logically, also have emotions, because you have emotions.

and how is your self being sustained, if you are the only thing that is real? how in the world are you maintaining this entire grand illusion, with all this scientific breakthroughs, maintaining such consistent logic throughout the entire world? solipsism is hardly the simplest explanation - it's disgustingly illogical and convoluted. just a childish way to hide behind a blanket because relationships are "scary".

you're a hamster running on a wheel, going in circles and getting nowhere. you can the comfort of running that wheel all you want, and it may be a nice way to flex your mental muscles, but here's the thing - most people who dip their toes into the "what if i'm actually the only thing real" problem know it's unsolvable and a silly question to begin with, and let it go when they're done playing with it. it's a treadmill to exercise on and nothing more.

it's not a healthy basis to build ones life on. ever.


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Offlineoculodextro
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26656692 - 05/08/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Why are we talking about solipism, if this thread is LOVE here.

You need to learn to accept and love yourself, or you'll never find love anywhere else. Even when it's right under your nose.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26657105 - 05/08/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psion said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Psion said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

You are getting away from solipsism. The problem is that I can not verify the existence of any of those externalities you mention. It could all just be figments of my mind, being utterly meaningless. I could believe your words but the word here is belief. I (according to solipsism) cannot truly know such things to be so.




of course i'm getting away from solipsism. it's a divide by 0 problem, one of those things in math that you right NS as the answer for. you do not try to solve such a problem because there's no way of solving it, and there's no point in trying to solve it.

and i already pointed out that even if we were figments of your mind, it still isn't meaningless to cultivate such relationships, any more than it is to get to know yourself better. an martial artist does not get better at combat by netflix and chill - they do it by practice and attuning to the various parts of their body, by getting to know the individual pieces of themselves. that's not pointless at all! that's self improvement, and by improving their bodies health, they also improve their mental health as well!

what affects one part affects all.

and stop trying to pretend that some almighty brainiac that invented every science invention that ever existed. you know better than that. you're just a person. we're all just people, each with our own flaws and talents. all imperfect, seeking each other out, helping each other up to grow stronger and improve ourselves.

at least in an ideal world.




Again you keep missing the point. Also it is meaningless to cultivate relationships with figments because they aren’t real. They don’t feel and don’t feel for you. Also I can attest that improving the body doesn’t help with mental health.

Again you are still using terms that cannot be validated to be true or exist lie other people or just others. Why assume additional entities? Isn’t solipsism the simplest explanation?

And what of my dreams of “seeing the future”? Could that not be a case for shaping reality? How else could I dream of something and having it happen later on?




your point is that there is no point. you cannot argue for a non argument - that's nonsensical, illogical.

moreover, your argument that figments cannot feel is also illogical - if you are the only being, then where do these "other" figments come from? the only logical conclusion is that you are making them up. if you are making them up, then they are part of you. if they are part of you, they, logically, also have emotions, because you have emotions.

and how is your self being sustained, if you are the only thing that is real? how in the world are you maintaining this entire grand illusion, with all this scientific breakthroughs, maintaining such consistent logic throughout the entire world? solipsism is hardly the simplest explanation - it's disgustingly illogical and convoluted. just a childish way to hide behind a blanket because relationships are "scary".

you're a hamster running on a wheel, going in circles and getting nowhere. you can the comfort of running that wheel all you want, and it may be a nice way to flex your mental muscles, but here's the thing - most people who dip their toes into the "what if i'm actually the only thing real" problem know it's unsolvable and a silly question to begin with, and let it go when they're done playing with it. it's a treadmill to exercise on and nothing more.

it's not a healthy basis to build ones life on. ever.




Actually that doesn’t follow. My making them up doesn’t mean they have feelings or thoughts, you just assume they do.

And solipsism is the simplest because it assumes the least when it comes to the world.

https://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2012/01/is-solipsism-simple.html?m=1

I don’t think people who let it go understand the implications behind it. Calling something silly is intellectually dishonest and just a dodge.

As for how the self is being sustained, does it matter? It still doesn’t make anything else more or less real.

And in regards to the exercise and mental health, psychology is a mixed bag and even so called common “treatments” don’t always work. I can honestly say exercise hasn’t helped me because this isn’t a mental health issue


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26657132 - 05/08/20 10:39 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think what people mean is, how it effects your mental health - not that its because of your mental health.

I would know, got stuck in it for almost a decade.  Like sitting in an empty ghost cave.  Thats why i feel for ya.

But there is a way.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/08/20 10:59 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26657152 - 05/08/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom. Our body feelings and our emotions are just tools to reach the essence. There is no need to understand anything...True zazen is continued clear mind moments in everything we do...Our ancestors lived with huge grace - living and dying in dhamma.  Zen training is done with bravery, it is not a decoration for our life... Drink up the whole universe.

- Shodo Harada Roshi




--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Offlineoculodextro
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Registered: 04/10/13
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26657154 - 05/08/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
See beyond all words and phrases.  If the messenger is attached to the ego, then all the information gets dark and confusing.  Return to the view which is prior to our ego filter.  If you want to know about the past, look at the present outcome. If you want to know the future, look at how you are right now.  Our source of awareness is prior to picking and choosing.  Our body already knows how to give birth to true wisdom.  There is no need to understand anything...

- Shodo Harada Roshi



That's a beautiful way to put it! I always simplified these thoughts, but this gives me brand new insight.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: oculodextro]
    #26657163 - 05/08/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

edited to contain more.

He is a wonderful man, and I am blessed to know him. He looked after me when I was an idiot in my younger days. So normal, yet extraordinary.  A genuine keeper of the flame, passing it on to the next generation.  A living Bodhisattva.  He'd bark at me for putting him on a pedestal if he saw this post.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26657187 - 05/08/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Trying to argue against Thanatos is like trying to argue with some devoted christian  :loljesus:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26657192 - 05/08/20 11:09 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Not impossible, he is have a very tough time with things in part because of this issue.

Christians are not immovable from their belief matrix, no one is.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26657194 - 05/08/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

But they certainly won't listen to any "atheist reasoning"


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26657204 - 05/08/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

they can and will if broached skillfully and appropriately according to a specific persons disposition


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26657210 - 05/08/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Will they stop believing?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: What is Love? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26657235 - 05/08/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Some do, others change their belief to be more open and adaptive, others to take the teachings as a mix of literal/symbolic/parable/allegory/myths to help navigate life's experience and to understand reality in an esoteric way, or to be good and do good.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Offlineoculodextro
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Re: What is Love? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26657241 - 05/08/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I met a christian that gave up his beliefs from snorkeling...He said I believed in evolution after I was snorkeling and realized I would definitely evolve to have fins...

Didn't have the heart to explain that's not how evolution works, was just happy he gave up his faith from a ridiculous scenario.


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OfflinePsion
Sage
Registered: 09/11/18
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Re: What is Love? [Re: oculodextro] * 1
    #26657600 - 05/08/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i used to be christian, but it wasn't discussions that broke my beliefs - it was hitting puberty that did. i wound up being gay, and suddenly becoming one of the "sinners" that i'd shunned all my life, realizing that it was in fact, not a choice, and spending years of depression and trying to fight it, using prayer, fasting, exorcism, etc trying to get rid of it, only for it all to fail...

it was seeing my 3 best friends all turn out to be wiccans, my 3 best friends who were the happiest, most honest people i'd ever met, who were always helping out rejects like me, that turned me over. here they were, the antithesis of my religion, devil worshipers, and they were getting everything right - despite the fact that they weren't cool kids, attractive kids, or super brainy kids, they were happy and friendly to others, even to jerks like me, all because they followed the rule of three - "do what thou whilst, but harm thee none, lest it come back to thee threefold." or somesuch. the idea was that good things also came back in threes, so doing good acts would also return to bless you in some way, with interest.

i've found that to be true, overall, though the actual nature of such things has always surprised me, and it's not always an exact multiplier. :P sometimes it's spread out in multiple blessings, sometimes it's one powerful blessing. sometimes you think your act of kindness got returned with spite, only to find out that curse winds up to be a blessing in disguise months, years, or even decades later.

as is the case of me turning out to be gay - it led to me experiencing some of the most excruciating moments of my life, to the point i danced along the edge of oblivion multiple times... and yet i'm grateful. so terribly grateful. if not for that, i would not have experienced all the insights i have had, grown the way i did. i would not change a thing of my past, even given the opportunity - i do not think i could've said the same thing 20 years ago!

some things cannot be learned by words - they must be felt and experienced to be understood.


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: What is Love? [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 1
    #26657610 - 05/08/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
I assume you've never tried shrooms.




Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
shrooms are just a scrambling of reality, not detachment.





Have you actually tried shrooms?




--------------------
Check out my new psytrance track "Sake Psychic": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xyEPGfiDrA ;


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OfflineMrMoon
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Fiery]
    #26657691 - 05/08/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Fiery said:
Quote:

MrMoon said:
Baby dont hurt me
Dont hurt me
No more






I've been hearing this song for days!



Is is like some sort of universal call?





Everybody was singing that song when I was just in jail.

:shrug:


--------------------
Bring your love baby Imma bring my Shame Bring the drugs baby Imma bring my pain



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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion]
    #26657806 - 05/08/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psion said:
i used to be christian, but it wasn't discussions that broke my beliefs - it was hitting puberty that did. i wound up being gay, and suddenly becoming one of the "sinners" that i'd shunned all my life, realizing that it was in fact, not a choice, and spending years of depression and trying to fight it, using prayer, fasting, exorcism, etc trying to get rid of it, only for it all to fail...

it was seeing my 3 best friends all turn out to be wiccans, my 3 best friends who were the happiest, most honest people i'd ever met, who were always helping out rejects like me, that turned me over. here they were, the antithesis of my religion, devil worshipers, and they were getting everything right - despite the fact that they weren't cool kids, attractive kids, or super brainy kids, they were happy and friendly to others, even to jerks like me, all because they followed the rule of three - "do what thou whilst, but harm thee none, lest it come back to thee threefold." or somesuch. the idea was that good things also came back in threes, so doing good acts would also return to bless you in some way, with interest.

i've found that to be true, overall, though the actual nature of such things has always surprised me, and it's not always an exact multiplier. :P sometimes it's spread out in multiple blessings, sometimes it's one powerful blessing. sometimes you think your act of kindness got returned with spite, only to find out that curse winds up to be a blessing in disguise months, years, or even decades later.

as is the case of me turning out to be gay - it led to me experiencing some of the most excruciating moments of my life, to the point i danced along the edge of oblivion multiple times... and yet i'm grateful. so terribly grateful. if not for that, i would not have experienced all the insights i have had, grown the way i did. i would not change a thing of my past, even given the opportunity - i do not think i could've said the same thing 20 years ago!

some things cannot be learned by words - they must be felt and experienced to be understood.




Solipsism still bothers me. Not being able to be proven wrong is one part. That and my dreams and whether they are “shaping reality” or future sight.

I found out I was gay and to be honest I still wish I wasn’t. It would have saved me a lot of damaging experiences in life. Even to this day I consider it a burden I live with rather than something to take pride in. I feel ok with it but deep down I want it gone, then I wouldn’t be drawn to sex that I hate.

As for what love is I think I learned from this video:


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePsion
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Registered: 09/11/18
Posts: 1,288
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26657851 - 05/08/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

see, the thing with religion is - it's not even wrong. it's unprovable. it's what's called unfalsifiable, and that's why it bothers you - because it's not logical. if something cannot be proven false, it cannot be considered in the realm of science at all - it's an entirely different thing, the realm of fluff and unicorns, of magic and what ifs. play with it, be entertained by it, maybe gain some wisdom by it, but by gods do not mistake it for scientific fact, because it is not and cannot be scientific fact, any more than you can hammer a nail with a fairy!

and i struggled with my own sexual preferences for many years, even after i rejected my religion and accepted what science had to say about sexual orientation - that it's something that's innate and normal, that it's incredibly widespread throughout the animal kingdom (if not every species has gays, then it's been documented in thousands upon thousands of different animals, from lions to penguins to goats, oh my), and that there's nothing wrong with me for admiring a guy instead of a girl - it's the color of the soul in the inside that matters.

instead of worrying about the ultimate nature of reality and such ridiculously impossibly huge questions to life, the universe and everything, you should probably start by working with the basic questions like - what is it like to love another person? how can i learn to love myself for what i am, without reservations? what fun things can i try today!?!

you need to learn to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. those huge questions to realities ultimate nature can wait, and will reveal themselves in time - but they won't reveal themselves if you don't put in the basic effort to better yourself first!

just trust me on this. i tried the same thing you did, trying to tackle the hard stuff first, and it never leads anywhere. but if you try to work on yourself first, and trust in Grace to guide you, it's like you're in a dark place, with a road that is dimly lit a few paces around you. you see the occasional sign that hints of possibilities that you can chose where to go, and you can head in those directions...but the way is still dark, except for that few paces. you literally have to walk that dark path, trusting in those few signs that indicate you're going in the right direction still, until you finally reach a dazzling view and you realize: this is it. i've reached it. i've found where i wanted to go, and it's amazing!

just focus on what you can change, focus on what you desire, and work toward that goal, trusting that the universe will provide opportunities to help you toward that desire. it may not be easy, certainly not always fast, and the opportunities it gives may not always be obvious at first - sometimes it may even seem counterproductive! but eventually... you'll reach there.


Edited by Psion (05/08/20 04:27 PM)


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InvisibleAroundtheSon
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Re: What is Love? [Re: Psion] * 1
    #26658004 - 05/08/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Seems like most religions, read through the right lense, lead you back to yourself. Love yourself. Love everyone like yourself, which seems natural when your own cup is full. I don't know. People hate on Christianity but the word is good for edification. Yes, it yields fanatics, as with anything, but if you just listen to Christ - love is the whole of the law. Easy cheesy.

Unfortunately, when talking to others about spirituality/religion - you only see a fragment. Best to read for yourself, and apply it. No matter which way you turn.

This seems sound:

just focus on what you can change, focus on what you desire, and work toward that goal, trusting that the universe will provide opportunities to help you toward that desire. it may not be easy, certainly not always fast, and the opportunities it gives may not always be obvious at first - sometimes it may even seem counterproductive! but eventually... you'll reach there.


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