Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Taking credit for the clever things we say * 1
    #26655769 - 05/07/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655796 - 05/07/20 06:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

In a conventional sense it can mean something, or rather - designate a point of origin as to the author ie. The individual’s mind in which whatever is being given credit for - first emerged from or appeared.

Upon closer inspection it begins to fall apart, but as a convention to be used in the relative mundane planes (a non absolutist view) it comes in handy.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26655875 - 05/07/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose I agree. In a purely conventional way, giving or taking credit refers to an individual mind as an origin for a certain thought, but this is a purely emergent picture. Another example of an emergent convention is to say, "I caused the milk to spill." Clearly, when milk spills, we have all sorts of phenomena coming together, like ion potentials in the brain and nervous system, muscular movements, molecular motions, the dimension of accident, etc., etc. Analogously, an awful lot goes into a thought or expression.

As you point out, upon inspection, the whole notion that one is unconditionally originating a certain idea is preposterous. But then, I do think people take the concept beyond its emergent usefulness into some sort of assumption of control, which obviously is dubious.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655898 - 05/07/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What is the better model then?  Some degree of responsibility and consequently credit must be due.

It is a question of world view.  On one extreme one is fully responsibly for everything they do and the results they get.  On the other hand there is a more tragic sense and a systems perspective.  As in the collective is singular and first instead of the individual.  This effects things like guilt, grief, credit etc.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655918 - 05/07/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes DQ - i have found most people i relate with making that error - or displaying it, myself included - but its so simplified its easy to use in speech with another  when one wants to point to something as the cause or origin of an effect or thing.  I’m sure many know deep down that its a limited convention like gimmick, but they dont necessarily speak up every time because to go into it and down the rabbit hole every time is cumbersome at times.

The system or model that approximates the “way it is” isnt fit for mass consumption imho.  Maybe if one were raised with it, schooled in it for a few decades- something such as Abhidhamma or something akin to it that attempts to cover all the bases.  But with the way of the world right now, that seems an irrational expectation to have for everyone.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655919 - 05/07/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I usually try to say one thing in a way to provide a few meanings that are not contradictory, it is an act I am proud of, but I never get any credit or discounts.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26655926 - 05/07/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I notice and appreciate it RGV  :bow2:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655985 - 05/07/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the better model then?  Some degree of responsibility and consequently credit must be due.

It is a question of world view.  On one extreme one is fully responsibly for everything they do and the results they get.  On the other hand there is a more tragic sense and a systems perspective.  As in the collective is singular and first instead of the individual.  This effects things like guilt, grief, credit etc.





Well I think creative acts and many of those involving personal responsibility are possibly of a different nature. My original suggestion was that, supposing there is some sort of coherent phenomenon driving our creativity, or whatever is involved with creative acts at all -- are we really originating anything, or are we more a kind of conduit for this phenomenon? And if we are more a vessel than a source, who is taking credit for what?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleYellow Pants
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655996 - 05/07/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Oh I see.  This may get into the sticky conscious/subconscious territory. 

Personally I thank myself for all successes and curse the astral soul for any shortcomings.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656141 - 05/07/20 09:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It depends on how you define what is or isn't us.

I would say that even the unconscious parts of the mind that generate what I say beyond my control are still a part of me, and therefore it is still me talking even when I haven't had any conscious control. I still have control in a different sense because I still define that part of me (which is producing speech) to be me despite the fact that I don't directly feel aware of it or in control of it. Yet by functioning, something within me that I define as a part of me has control over its function to some extent, and therefore its product (speech for example) is still produced by "me" in some way. Or even if the unconscious part of me that produces speech has no real "control," its design and its results are still a part of "me" and therefore I am still speaking even when I don't have "control" or "awareness" of my production of speech in a certain sense.

Interesting thing in psychology related to this: if you ask people to tell you why and how they came up with the words that they're saying, how they decided to say those exact words in that order, etc. they can't do it and will instead often confabulate/make up an answer. Why we say what we say and how we arrive at the exact things that we say are partially or largely unconscious processes.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656291 - 05/07/20 11:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?




seems the question is sort of like another version of: what is the self? and/ or: is there free will?
but i'm not sure a yes or no answer is called for.

no one else could have painted the Sistine Chapel other than Michelangelo .
But many of Robert Louis Stevenson's stories were written, by or in, his dreams.

seems to me the world doesn't have to fit our conceptual categories.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26656299 - 05/07/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It can "mean" something once it is observered or listened to...but only to the witness.

To you it is an intangible that is immeasurable and should not be given weight.

A flower deserves no credit for being, it's beauty and meaning are constructed by the observer.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26656447 - 05/08/20 01:17 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If I don't take the credit, God will. And I'm not letting that fucker take the credit.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656520 - 05/08/20 02:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

the ego piggybacks on the spirit (the creative genius), however, when low on horsepower it is possible for the spirit to piggyback on ego.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26656526 - 05/08/20 02:33 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
A flower deserves no credit for being, it's beauty and meaning are constructed by the observer.




Beauty is not caused. It is.

--Emily Dickinson


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26656531 - 05/08/20 02:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The question isn't should you take credit for things you say.. but the question is.. is it honest for me to say it?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26656538 - 05/08/20 02:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i would think that each persons can only answer that question for themselves, relative to themself.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: nooneman]
    #26656627 - 05/08/20 04:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I notice and appreciate it RGV  :bow2:



gosh thanks...
Quote:

nooneman said:
...
Interesting thing in psychology related to this: if you ask people to tell you why and how they came up with the words that they're saying, how they decided to say those exact words in that order, etc. they can't do it and will instead often confabulate/make up an answer. Why we say what we say and how we arrive at the exact things that we say are partially or largely unconscious processes.



this correlates to the picture above with alice being asked to explain herself.
the difficulty in explaining why you say what you say is the same difficulty one might have in explaining each muscle being coordinated while you walk or sit down.
we learn complex coordination  and can be motivated to repeat actions that are complex or even create new moves spontaneously as on the tennis court or while playing music, or even speaking.

anything difficult to explain is attributed to unconscious or god.
given awareness and time, the fog lifts and things can be explained without magic.

that you can stymie someone into an inexplicability corner is not proof of subconscious mind, it is proof of a dominant role played (eg therapist and subject - or caterpillar and alice)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656952 - 05/08/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?

It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26657185 - 05/08/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

We can put the right factors into play/place in the right order of operations and appropriate quantity (ratio/recipe) and balanced measure so as to give rise to the condition(s) which generate the relevant state of mind from which we can do so.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/08/20 11:52 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26657233 - 05/08/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?

It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.



this may not go with the title of the thread or the OP, but I think it cuts into the core of the matter, that being when we address both the unknown and our own (moral) context to participate conversationally, rather than conversing by knee jerk responses using all the old phrases in a mechanical way.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26657353 - 05/08/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

For sure I agree. And I think there is a spectrum there. Ideally, one would like to be as little robotic as possible. But I think it's clear that most people, especially most Americans, are on a kind of "auto-pilot" in their thoughts and actions, unaware of virtually everything. Anyone with the desire to do so can become less robotic, but the kicker is that the the most robotic people are the most oblivious to that robotism.

Certainly, we can cultivate awareness, which is possibly the most important thing. But how much we control of ourselves, even in comparatively more aware circumstances, is certainly a question, and in that sense, it is interesting to me to explore how much "credit," if any, we can really take for our actions, or if it is all more of a participatory flow of which we are concentrations, like vortices in a river.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26657565 - 05/08/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?

It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.




.    Some performers specialize in spontaneity. There used to be a TV show where they get a subject and have to improvise. If one can recognize a style each person has, then there is some personal, stamp.
.  Robin Williams and Peter Sellers were 2 of the most famous & fastest mimics, ever changing personality & accents at unbelievable speed--so the question is: Did they have styles that were recognizably personal?
.    It is said walking, may be defined as repeatedly falling and catching one self.
.      Spontaneity may just be a matter of having enough awareness to notice that on a micro level we are never really fully in control.
.    Tai chi chuan, which is the opposite of acting fast,( during non combat practice), by forcing one to move very slowly, may provide an entry to creating more awareness of the fluid boundary between spontaneity, or that which happens by itself, and control or the bringing of present time awareness to the form to make sure it is within the parameters of correctness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26657584 - 05/08/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps more succinctly it might be said:
A tight ass is a person who wants to get credit for everything, they say (in this instance)
whereas a relaxed spontaneous person enjoys the flow of the repartee, and doesn't remember later who said what, or even care. All the laughter was its own reward.

The world is full of both types of people.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26657591 - 05/08/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Some people die quite peacefully. It is certainly an out of control process for which one takes no credit, yet it may be experienced as a relief. Seems an interesting consideration - perhaps getting credit is not what its cracked up to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26657802 - 05/08/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

All very good points. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26657980 - 05/08/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i'm getting robotic now


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26658522 - 05/08/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

yeah DXM can do that


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26660051 - 05/09/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I had another thought.  As has been pointed out, it makes little sense to “take credit” for an act of creativity, when one considers it carefully. It just happens. But despite what some have said, I don't think it is a question here of free will, if one wants to bring that up. One’s free will exists to the extent that one is voluntarily doing the activity. The actual origin of the creative fire is outside oneself, very deep. To be creative is to channel that fire, not to create or control it.

Just another couple of cents.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26660079 - 05/09/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Agreed.  I’d just add that some are more proficient at channeling it than others - and in various different ways.  Likened to honing a craft, or cultivating and sharpening ones ability to do so via practice of the art of it.  That’s one angle to it.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26660184 - 05/09/20 02:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps consider the painting of Jackson Pollack. He danced with/between control & spontaneity. With flying & dripping paint.

or consider the famous painter Francis Bacon:

"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:

In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "

"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:

All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve. (Francis Bacon)"

http://www.art-quotes.com/auth_search.php?name=Francis+Bacon#.XrcUSxOYUp8

We tend to believe the categories we make up, to describe life, are accurate. But perhaps: "it anint necessarily so"...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26660315 - 05/09/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Agreed.  I’d just add that some are more proficient at channeling it than others - and in various different ways.  Likened to honing a craft, or cultivating and sharpening ones ability to do so via practice of the art of it.  That’s one angle to it.





Oh yes, absolutely. Being a good artist or writer takes a lot of practice and hard work, and that of course is the result of effort. So it's quite a complicated thing.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26660322 - 05/09/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Perhaps consider the painting of Jackson Pollack. He danced with/between control & spontaneity. With flying & dripping paint.

or consider the famous painter Francis Bacon:

"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:

In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "

"Francis Bacon - From the Accidents category:

All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve. (Francis Bacon)"

http://www.art-quotes.com/auth_search.php?name=Francis+Bacon#.XrcUSxOYUp8

We tend to believe the categories we make up, to describe life, are accurate. But perhaps: "it anint necessarily so"...





Yes that also reminds me of Burroughs' method of "cut-up" and "fold-in," which he used for several of his books. He would take an assortment of clippings or writings from various places, mash them up and then cut them apart or fold them upon themselves to create totally novel word combinations. The words themselves were quite random and accidental, but he was quick to point out that the selection of useful combinations was a conscious act. As I recall, some of those cut-up novels are very good and very difficult.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26660404 - 05/09/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Years ago I was interested in  Burroughs' method of "cut-up", and read a lot of his books.

He got the "cut-up" method from Brion Gysin  (1916 –  1986). Believe they were 'neighbors' & maybe more in perhaps both London, Paris, and Morocco.

Some dates:
Burroughs Naked Lunch 1959

These ideas were previously, in the air prior to Burroughs almost total reliance on them. As these dates show. I have included a lot of history of this sort of idea, & a tiny bit about the personalities involved. Perhaps James Joyce or some others should be included, but this is perhaps already too long as others may not share my interests.

Gertrude Stein  1874 –  1946

John Cage:  ". Through his studies of Indian philosophy and Zen Buddhism in the late 1940s, Cage came to the idea of aleatoric or chance-controlled music, which he started composing in 1951. The I Ching, an ancient Chinese classic text decision-making tool, which uses chance operations to suggest answers to questions one may pose, became Cage's standard composition tool for the rest of his life. In a 1957 lecture, Experimental Music, he described music as "a purposeless play" which is "an affirmation of life – not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply a way of waking up to the very life we're living".

"In early 1951, Wolff presented Cage with a copy of the I Ching[51]—a Chinese classic text which describes a symbol system used to identify order in chance events. This version of the I Ching was the first complete English translation and had been published by Wolff's father, Kurt Wolff of Pantheon Books in 1950. The I Ching is commonly used for divination, but for Cage it became a tool to compose using chance. To compose a piece of music, Cage would come up with questions to ask the I Ching; the book would then be used in much the same way as it is used for divination. For Cage, this meant "imitating nature in its manner of operation":[52][53] His lifelong interest in sound itself culminated in an approach that yielded works in which sounds were free from the composer's will:

When I hear what we call music, it seems to me that someone is talking. And talking about his feelings, or about his ideas of relationships. But when I hear traffic, the sound of traffic—here on Sixth Avenue, for instance—I don't have the feeling that anyone is talking. I have the feeling that sound is acting. And I love the activity of sound ... I don't need sound to talk to me.[54]

Although Cage had used chance on a few earlier occasions, most notably in the third movement of Concerto for Prepared Piano and Chamber Orchestra (1950–51),[55] the I Ching opened new possibilities in this field for him. The first results of the new approach were Imaginary Landscape No. 4 for 12 radio receivers, and Music of Changes for piano. The latter work was written for David Tudor,[56] whom Cage met through Feldman—another friendship that lasted until Cage's death.[n 3] Tudor premiered most of Cage's works until the early 1960s, when he stopped performing on the piano and concentrated on composing music. The I Ching became Cage's standard tool for composition: he used it in practically every work composed after 1951, and eventually settled on a computer algorithm that calculated numbers in a manner similar to throwing coins for the I Ching."

from wiki

and also from wiki


"Silence: Lectures and Writings"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


First edition
Silence: Lectures and Writings is a book by American experimental composer John Cage (1912–1992), first published in 1961 by Wesleyan University Press. Silence is a collection of essays and lectures Cage wrote during the period from 1939 to 1961. The contents of the book is as follows:

"Foreword" (1961)
"Manifesto" (1952)
"The Future of Music: Credo" (1937)
"Experimental Music" (1957)
"Experimental Music: Doctrine" (1955)
"Composition as Process" (1958), essay in three parts:
"Changes"
"Indeterminacy"
"Communication"
"Composition" (1952–1957), essay in two parts:
"To Describe the Process of Composition Used in Music of Changes and Imaginary Landscape No. 4" (1952)
"To Describe the Process of Composition Used in Music for Piano 21–52" (1957)
"Forerunners of Modern Music" (1949)
"History of Experimental Music in the United States" (1959)
"Erik Satie" (1958)
"Edgar Varèse" (1958)
"Four Statements on the Dance" (1939–1957)
"Goal: New Music, New Dance" (1939)
"Grace and Clarity" (1944)
"In This Day..." (1956)
"2 Pages, 122 Words on Music and Dance" (1957)
"On Robert Rauschenberg, Artist, and His Work" (1961)
"Lecture on Nothing" (1959)
Note that in the "Afternote" to the Lecture on Nothing (Silence, p. 126) Cage states that it was first delivered in 1949 or 50. Most sources give the date of 1950.

"Lecture on Something" (1951)
"45' for a Speaker" (1954)
"Where Are We Going? and What Are We Doing?" (1961)
"Indeterminacy" (1958)
"Music Lovers' Field Companion" (1954)


also wiki re Brion Gysin :

"In 1954 in Tangier, Gysin opened a restaurant called The 1001 Nights, with his friend Mohamed Hamri, who was the cook. Gysin hired the Master Musicians of Jajouka from the village of Jajouka to perform alongside entertainment that included acrobats, a dancing boy and fire eaters.[7][8] The musicians performed there for an international clientele that included William S. Burroughs. Gysin lost the business in 1958,[9] and the restaurant closed permanently. That same year, Gysin returned to Paris, taking lodgings in a flophouse located at 9 rue Gît-le-Coeur that would become famous as the Beat Hotel. Working on a drawing, he discovered a Dada technique by accident:

William Burroughs and I first went into techniques of writing, together, back in room No. 15 of the Beat Hotel during the cold Paris spring of 1958... Burroughs was more intent on Scotch-taping his photos together into one great continuum on the wall, where scenes faded and slipped into one another, than occupied with editing the monster manuscript... Naked Lunch appeared and Burroughs disappeared. He kicked his habit with Apomorphine and flew off to London to see Dr Dent, who had first turned him on to the cure. While cutting a mount for a drawing in room No. 15, I sliced through a pile of newspapers with my Stanley blade and thought of what I had said to Burroughs some six months earlier about the necessity for turning painters' techniques directly into writing. I picked up the raw words and began to piece together texts that later appeared as "First Cut-Ups" in Minutes to Go (Two Cities, Paris 1960).[10]

When Burroughs returned from London in September 1959, Gysin not only shared his discovery with his friend but the new techniques he had developed for it. Burroughs then put the techniques to use while completing Naked Lunch and the experiment dramatically changed the landscape of American literature. Gysin helped Burroughs with the editing of several of his novels including Interzone, and wrote a script for a film version of Naked Lunch, which was never produced. The pair collaborated on a large manuscript for Grove Press titled The Third Mind but it was determined that it would be impractical to publish it as originally envisioned. The book later published under that title incorporates little of this material. Interviewed for The Guardian in 1997, Burroughs explained that Gysin was "the only man that I've ever respected in my life. I've admired people, I've liked them, but he's the only man I've ever respected."[11] In 1969, Gysin completed his finest novel, The Process, a work judged by critic Robert Palmer as "a classic of 20th century modernism".[12]"

===================
Re: Gertrude Stein
"Carl Van Vechten, Portrait of Gertrude Stein, 1934
Stein's writing can be placed in three categories: "hermetic" works best illustrated by The Making of Americans: The Hersland Family; popularized writing such as The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas; and speech writing and more accessible autobiographical writing of later years, of which Brewsie and Willie is a good example. Her works include novels, plays, stories, libretti and poems written in a highly idiosyncratic, playful, repetitive, and humorous style. Typical quotes are: "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose"; "Out of kindness comes redness and out of rudeness comes rapid same question, out of an eye comes research, out of selection comes painful cattle"; about her childhood home in Oakland, "There is no there there"; and "The change of color is likely and a difference a very little difference is prepared. Sugar is not a vegetable."[citation needed]

These stream-of-consciousness experiments, rhythmical essays or "portraits", were designed to evoke "the excitingness of pure being" and can be seen as literature's answer to visual art styles and forms such as Cubism, plasticity, and collage. Many of the experimental works such as Tender Buttons have since been interpreted by critics as a feminist reworking of patriarchal language. These works were well received by avant-garde critics but did not initially achieve mainstream success. Despite Stein's work on "automatic writing" with William James, she did not see her work as automatic, but as an 'excess of consciousness'.[citation needed]"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,851
Last seen: 7 hours, 47 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26662419 - 05/10/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You can imagine a person to take the credit

but like every single thing in your universe

its imaginary


this word game reveals nothing
no one knows a single thing


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #26662827 - 05/10/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

generalize much?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26663048 - 05/10/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

DQ’s trying to take credit for starting this thread :snub:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass] * 2
    #26663065 - 05/10/20 07:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
You can imagine a person to take the credit

but like every single thing in your universe

its imaginary





Even if we approach things this way, it’s very rarely skillful to say it’s all imaginary because it’s beyond the point. I get your point though, however, It’s essentially effete.

If we say Absolute truth is half the equation, and relative truth is the other half - and since we operate in both simultaneously (although, there’s not really a division of absolute and relative in reality),  Then it’s still just as worthwhile to carry on discussing the nature of taking credit, etc etc.  than there is if we don’t carry on with it.  Hence, both are fine - but since we are discussing it here, that’s what’s happening.

Labels might be for the birds, but since our species and theirs both share a common ancestor... :shrug:  Might as well play!


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/10/20 07:33 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26663082 - 05/10/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There's been a journey undertaken in that post.:thumbup:


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26663414 - 05/10/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The OP seems to have it backwards:  "If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit."

Hard to improve on what the famous painter Francis Bacon said, in regards to this seeming duality:

"In my case all painting... is an accident. I foresee it and yet I hardly ever carry it out as I foresee it. It transforms itself by the actual paint. I don't in fact know very often what the paint will do, and it does many things which are very much better than I could make it do. "

But also::

"All painting is an accident. But it's also not an accident, because one must select what part of the accident one chooses to preserve."

.      However there is an entire literature on accessing the "right brain" to increase creativity. The discussion, in this long thread, is of course mainly dominated by "left brain thinking". Which can never lead to "right brain" creativity ( except in the case of its reaching exhaustion).
.    Not knowing the freedom and joy of the experiencing of creating, the "left brain" is left studying fossil quotes and old musty dualistic concepts.

.    Now perhaps you see why the OP has it backwards --- he equates the slow methodical past oriented linear  "left brain" with being more original, than the lightening fast wholistic parallel processing imaginative "right brain". Of course this is what our entire educational system 'wants' to condition us to believe - it makes for good accountants, and factory workers. Whereas being creative is perhaps somewhat scary, as it ventures into the unknown, and dares to loosen control.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26663923 - 05/11/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

you know, left brain - right brain concepts are a fallacy, even for the purpose of symbolic discussion.
to consider sequential mental activity and flash mental activity as different is incorrect, as the flash (wholistic parallel issue) is basic associative mentation, and the sequential process is actually a series of flashes or basic associative steps.

I have done three kinds of work professionally, software development,  art, and  house building which combines the two but also involves a lot of communication and scheduling. I still do art and may do more building, but have done little software design or development for the last 2 years.

when we talk about thinking in different ways, there is usually some other issue, such as sex, thinking like a woman..., or politics, eg thinking like a liberal. Uncultured thinking can be compared to more refined thinking and that has a lot to do with where a person had taken their active mind, or if they have let it just romp in the fields.

Tne fullness of the results of all my works are accidentally just so, even though intended to be nearly just so. Prior to stopping work each piece or layer is what was intended, but also what is acceptable under the circumstances and not exactly as intended.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26664107 - 05/11/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So you found an article to link to. Big deal. Seems you missed that I used quotes.

The claim that: "you know, left brain - right brain concepts are a fallacy, even for the purpose of symbolic discussion." ... is itself simply wrong --you are not in charge of how people use metaphor, and this is accepted popular usage -- its like saying Newtonian Physics is a fallacy, post Einstein, --  but Newtonian Physics got us to the moon.

People use the techniques called "right brain" in popular culture, all the time to over come "writer's block", feeling stuck artistically, and the "inner critic" etc., and the experience of enjoying creative work is quite different from your fixation, on getting credit for the the perfect answer here.

You are welcome to use the term "right brain"or not. We don't use general relativity theory when aiming a gun or cannon, when simpler Newtonian Physics work just fine. Seems to me telling folks (especially artists) what seems to be the latest neurology, is rather (to use an outdated Freudian term (but also still useful)) rather anal. Or some might  rather say "left brain" or if you prefer 'pedantic', point being the terms don't matter and ain't about to change.

Once again, as is often the case on this forum, the trees and the forest have been mixed up.
The gist of what I posted was about not mistaking belabored linear type thinking, as better than more spontaneous mental processes. That's all -- I won't belabor the point, or bother to argue it, if some find some value in it fine, if you don't that is also fine.


Edited by laughingdog (05/11/20 09:14 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26664218 - 05/11/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

newton is not fallacious the apple does fall every time.
looks like you lost your actual thread by this left right march.

the amount of thinking you do before delivering your art (speech) may not affect the value of the work nor the credit you are due.

it is all the same, reflex, or reflex with governance, or reflex with extra governance: the zen archery of the result has little to do with the ego of the archer.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26664220 - 05/11/20 10:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You might be right, ld, I might be oversimplifying. But I would say that, as far as the activity of the mind and brain, there is nothing "linear" about what I have described, at a fundamental level. And I think I agree with rgv when he says that, whether we take "left-" or "right-"brain processes, ultimately they are different forms of the same underlying neural activity, which always involves the whole brain.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26664262 - 05/11/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

where do you place the credit for invoking inspiration at will?

is the human tendency towards workaholism actually about a search for a state where the individual can have a non-conscious presence?

humans receive much pleasure in doing things in which conscious control is not utilized the whole time.

i needs me, but does me need i as well?  me is giving i the piggyback ride. i has awareness of the technique, but me flows.

Quote:

The Centipede's Dilemma

A centipede was happy - quite!

Until a toad in fun

Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"

This raised her doubts to such a pitch,

She fell exhausted in the ditch

Not knowing how to run.




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26664383 - 05/11/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

we take pleasure where we can get it but being aware provides more than not being aware, and pleasure is just one of the traps not the only one that can divert our attention, irrational fear is even bigger.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26664452 - 05/11/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Did you ever try and discuss solipsism with Thanatos?


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26664588 - 05/11/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

probably it happened, but I was not aware of it as such; to some people everything exists in their own infinite mind.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26664598 - 05/11/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

how to conscious acts of creation differ from unconscious acts of creation?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26664647 - 05/11/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how to conscious acts of creation differ from unconscious acts of creation?





The way I think of it is that: it is all conscious on some level. The products of the unconscious parts of ourselves are part of a conscious process, but it is one with which we are not usually joined. I think one function of psychedelics is to join the disparate parts together, thus "expanding consciousness."


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26664674 - 05/11/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
You might be right, ld, I might be oversimplifying. But I would say that, as far as the activity of the mind and brain, there is nothing "linear" about what I have described, at a fundamental level. And I think I agree with rgv when he says that, whether we take "left-" or "right-"brain processes, ultimately they are different forms of the same underlying neural activity, which always involves the whole brain.




IMO:

.  First comes inspiration then editing, if one desires more than a business report.
The editing is a "linear" process. The inspiration or what makes surprising, innovative, imaginative, and creative leaps--just like dreaming -- is a non linear process. To take credit (or to be proud of) for a business report because one labored over it, seems laughable, to anyone who is actually capable of original work.

.  It is only because original work involves some letting go of the ego & literal conscious mind ( which is "the part", that loves getting 'credit'), that many don't want to acknowledge the ill defined aspects of our mind or self. Such folks generally prefer legality, certainty, & normality.
.  Like RGV you seem hung up on neurology, & being logically correct, also a "linear" modality, which works well in business, school and math class, but not when attempting anything original that might actually be worth "taking credit for". Who wants credit for writing just another hack piece, for reading in the summer on the beach, before being thrown in the trash?

.  If writing like the genius Elmore Leonard, could be done by a slow fully conscious, effortful process many would be doing it, because it is so very very lucrative. But all the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do. Some admit this, and many prefer not to.
.  Watch some live interviews of Robin Williams (from his TV days), on Youtube and tell me how much slow fully conscious, effortful thought he puts into each character he switches into and out of, at lightning speed, at moments seemingly compulsively. Then tell me whether or not he 'should' "get credit" for being a genius.
.  In the case of enlightenment ( perhaps the greatest human "achievement" possible) and definitely not the result of any rational thought out process, ...so the taking credit & being proud of it, would of course be both laughable and a contradiction. So the assumption that getting credit or acquiring some sort of merit, is really good & worth while, seems to be really only a sort of booby prize.
.  Creativity is its own reward, the fame, praise, & money are only icing on the cake. And some types even make great efforts to avoid many of these sorts of trappings. And why is it, its own reward? Because it doesn't need to question itself, - the flow feels good, it doesn't need praise or credit or science, to feel and know verification. Just watch a truly happy child at play.  No special 'artistic types' required to see this. IMO


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Female

Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,642
Last seen: 4 months, 20 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26664683 - 05/11/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

yes, all states joined at some level, but, what about the acts that arise from the states? 

if both acts are the same thing, then wouldn't that be like living in a lucid dream 24/7?

one not induced by consuming external mind altering substances or by going to sleep.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26664709 - 05/11/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Re: thealienthatategod

Some reading of the work of Milton Erickson, will tell you more about the differences between the 'unconscious' and 'conscious' minds than any theories ever will.  They are also very interesting, full of good stories, and show a sense of humor.
Just google him.
Also some good books about him, and free pdfs online.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26664946 - 05/11/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.  If writing like the genius Elmore Leonard, could be done by a slow fully conscious, effortful process many would be doing it, because it is so very very lucrative. But all the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do. Some admit this, and many prefer not to.






Your whole post is good, but this is what stood out to me. I think it encapsulates the whole thrust of what I intended to explore in this thread. "All the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do." I think that's right -- it's just a flow state, it just happens. The willful "freedom" inheres in whether to go to the easel, or the piano, or the word processor, and let it happen. Or conversely to go the store or have a snack or otherwise procrastinate, instead.

Many do prefer not to admit it, but it's the truth.

As far as linear vs. nonlinear thinking, I don't really have strong opinions. As you point out, degrees of creativity can be attached to anything -- a sales report vs. a classical statue vs. a Monet, and whatnot. But I really have no idea why some people can do one and not another, and it's not something I think about.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26665061 - 05/11/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i think its all concsious except for some of sleep


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26665094 - 05/11/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I use surfing as an internal analogy often.

The best surfers are geniuses of flow.
They cannot preconceive their actions until the wave is upon them.
It is those who form unison that do best.

From the beach the surfer looks amazing because he or she  was in thoughtless flow.

Was it the wave?
Was it the Surfer?

And most importantly was there any difference?


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26665242 - 05/11/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

So if you are saying something is clever...are you therefore clever?
or must the whole notion of clever be breached? And therefore need a clever examination of ones own cleverness?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26665248 - 05/11/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think its the innocent fool in us that feels like taking credit for something is clever..or even honestly truthful and outgoing at the same time?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26665257 - 05/11/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think that no matter how solid you feel the subject or self is, if you to peel back enough layers you would find a point of...fluidity...that denies any ability to separate or be absolute...about anything.
Credit or not included.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26665262 - 05/11/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
I think that no matter how solid you feel the subject or self is, if you to peel back enough layers you would find a point of...fluidity...that denies any ability to separate or be absolute...about anything.
Credit or not included.





Definitely.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26665267 - 05/11/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You sure?:wink:


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26665284 - 05/11/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sure I'm not sure.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26665297 - 05/11/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

And thus a beautiful conversation begins.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26665793 - 05/12/20 05:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

you mean zen surfing, or zen archery, thus zen speaking!

i.e. not thinking before speaking, but speaking from your heart, with all the honesty that may be there.

this is what I AM REFERRING TO, speaking or acting or thinking is all the same to mind. it is one thing.

the zen of it is the minimal fuss around each thing. so not thinking before speaking, thinking all the time (meditating?), and speaking directly from the heart.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26665882 - 05/12/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: thealienthatategod

Some reading of the work of Milton Erickson,.




I have been trying to remember this guys name for 6 months.

Thank you for typing the words here :laugh:

If you have any PDFs you like and feel like sending them I love you long time.

Specifically something with a line of his that says (forgive the overt butchery this is from something 5 years ago I read )

“ yada ya da - the actual conditions of an individual as best suited to their particular real needs ya da ya da .

Something to that effect.  :shrug:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/12/20 07:42 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26668677 - 05/13/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: thealienthatategod

Some reading of the work of Milton Erickson,.




I have been trying to remember this guys name for 6 months.

Thank you for typing the words here :laugh:

If you have any PDFs you like and feel like sending them I love you long time.

Specifically something with a line of his that says (forgive the overt butchery this is from something 5 years ago I read )

“ yada ya da - the actual conditions of an individual as best suited to their particular real needs ya da ya da .

Something to that effect.  :shrug:




there is no secret, I suppose its just too obvious, for instance one could start here:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=milton+erickson+pdf&t=hk&ia=web

or here

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=milton+erickson%2C++free+pdf&t=hk&ia=web

or similar search terms,

or use google,  if you like being tracked, although I expect duckduck an't what they claim either

as regards the approximate quote I have no data.

If you have a few bucks this good intro is available, used, on Amazon, "Uncommon Therapy: The Psychiatric Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D.", by jay haley for about $4- + postage.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26668707 - 05/13/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I’ll find what I’m looking for eventually.  I was asking bc years ago you posted a link to a pdf that relates to what I was asking for, I should :grin:have known after all this time that you would remember what such a blip in time was specifically  probably a very unlikely shot I the dark, all good though :thumbup:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26668726 - 05/13/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

some i down loaded, ( so putting them in a search engine may bring them up) at some point in time long ago were:

the wisdom of ME excerpt.pdf

Burden of Responsibility.pdf

Milton H. Erickson - Experiencing Hypnosis v1.pdf

Hypnotic_Realities_-_Milton_H._Erickson.pdf

Naturalistic Techniques of Hypnosis.pdf

Erickson - Hypnotherpy Exploratory Casebook.pdf


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
    #26668736 - 05/13/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks :thumbup:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/13/20 03:38 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26671830 - 05/15/20 02:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Too clever?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26685290 - 05/21/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?



I once wrote a paragraph here word for word with exact punctuation, out of Ram Dass Be Here Now. I thought i had come up with it myself. I had not remembered ever reading the book before and once i realized he had indeed written it first, my mind was kind of blown.

If there is some objectivity to be found, credit would go to whom came up with the idea first.
However, the same idea may be expressed by others without ever having been introduced to it.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMoses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: hTx]
    #26685902 - 05/21/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Kind of reminds me of something Niel DeGrasse Tyson said--  When we don't understand something, such as the quantum fluctuations that caused the creation of the universe, we say it is just a very complex and difficult material to understand. But to a monkey, building a simple machine might seem very difficult. Perhaps to a more advanced being, what seems like a monumental achievement to us (such as composing a symphony), may seem like a first grader project that their little Timmy made at school. So... its hubris for us to say something is really complex. Maybe we're just not very smart.

I can't take credit for that thought, since it wasn't mine... and I just repeated it lol

A lot of stuff we think came from outside of ourselves.

The rest... maybe its like genetic variation & change?  Are our original thoughts just "recombinations" of other material that we have seen?

Is taking credit for anything just hubris in itself? Maybe it depends on the situation and the motive of the heart of the individual.


Edited by Moses_Davidson (05/21/20 03:09 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: hTx]
    #26686040 - 05/21/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?



I once wrote a paragraph here word for word with exact punctuation, out of Ram Dass Be Here Now. I thought i had come up with it myself. I had not remembered ever reading the book before and once i realized he had indeed written it first, my mind was kind of blown.

If there is some objectivity to be found, credit would go to whom came up with the idea first.
However, the same idea may be expressed by others without ever having been introduced to it.



you can at least take credit for thinking the thought appropriately, as opposed to treating the sequence of words as a meaningless ritual.
original thought may not be as important as appropriate or suitable thought, thought that really fits well. words that really fit well.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26686593 - 05/21/20 08:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You can give credit to the avenue that lead to the thought though..

Like what thoughts led up to the thought(wether original or not).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26686639 - 05/21/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You're forgetting about the thought about whether or not credit is due...ie was that thought of credibility...credible.

At some point there is assumption or two.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26687760 - 05/22/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
You can give credit to the avenue that lead to the thought though..

Like what thoughts led up to the thought(wether original or not).



this is the essence of scholarliness.

Quote:

pineninja said:
You're forgetting about the thought about whether or not credit is due...ie was that thought of credibility...credible.

At some point there is assumption or two.



some credit is not worth the paper it's printed on.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineForresterM
aspiring sociopath
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 19 hours
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26689011 - 05/22/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If we can briefly entertain the notion that non-dualism is literally true and all thought is channeled, this question becomes easier to answer.

Credit goes to the open mind that channeled it I guess :lol:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26689103 - 05/22/20 08:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah because you have to have the open mind to channel the thought..

So credit can be given to the open mindedness


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,818
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26689112 - 05/22/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That makes pretty good sense. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26689689 - 05/23/20 05:25 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

open credit for all!


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
 User Gallery


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26689704 - 05/23/20 05:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Surely there's a cost.

I mean is not my credit relative to someone's loss.
If i am better....are you not therefore worse.

Should I take credit for something I myself could've done better....is there anyway to know?


The whole things a concession.
False rankings based upon false assumptions.

Credit.. blah.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26689765 - 05/23/20 06:29 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

that might be true in the bitcoin verse, but here we print credit as it occurs


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrendanFlock
Stranger
Male

Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 6 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26691034 - 05/23/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I agree with redgreenvines..

Surely we can come to some type of ascertation..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMoses_Davidson
Non-Prophet
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 3 months, 29 days
Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26691437 - 05/23/20 11:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
Surely there's a cost.

I mean is not my credit relative to someone's loss.
If i am better....are you not therefore worse.





In a zero net sum transaction, you are correct. This applies to options or forex trading, but in a system where new value is created, additional forces are at work. When new value is created the idiosyncratic value increases the systemic value.

Credit is value. Value is subject to the laws of supply and demand, and value can be created out of nothing. New value is created all the time, and when you deserve credit, its because you have created more value than you received. We give credit to Tesla for his invention of AC power delivery... but the value we received from Tesla is far greater than the credit he received.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Terence Mckenna & DMT's idiosyncraticness...
( 1 2 all )
Hermes_br 3,212 30 12/01/02 09:38 PM
by 3eyedgod
* Did Tesla discover the mechanism changing the arrow of time? automanM 855 9 11/07/03 10:04 AM
by d33p
* Nikola Tesla
( 1 2 all )
OldWoodSpecter 5,200 36 02/09/12 09:11 PM
by timelapses
* My take on Psychedelics and Spirituality
( 1 2 all )
tekramrepus 4,162 25 07/11/03 12:05 AM
by Phencyclidine
* Why people take offense...
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,632 37 08/03/02 07:51 AM
by Jellric
* Can logical reason take the place of emotional judgement?
( 1 2 all )
trendalM 5,323 37 06/12/03 02:11 PM
by castaway
* When could you morally justify taking a life?
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 4,526 31 10/01/02 04:42 PM
by AcursedRedDragon
* I'm done with growing and taking mushrooms... *DELETED*
( 1 2 all )
psilocybe cubensis 3,991 29 09/22/01 02:08 PM
by Ishmael

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,572 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.058 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 14 queries.