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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26663923 - 05/11/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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you know, left brain - right brain concepts are a fallacy, even for the purpose of symbolic discussion. to consider sequential mental activity and flash mental activity as different is incorrect, as the flash (wholistic parallel issue) is basic associative mentation, and the sequential process is actually a series of flashes or basic associative steps.
I have done three kinds of work professionally, software development, art, and house building which combines the two but also involves a lot of communication and scheduling. I still do art and may do more building, but have done little software design or development for the last 2 years.
when we talk about thinking in different ways, there is usually some other issue, such as sex, thinking like a woman..., or politics, eg thinking like a liberal. Uncultured thinking can be compared to more refined thinking and that has a lot to do with where a person had taken their active mind, or if they have let it just romp in the fields.
Tne fullness of the results of all my works are accidentally just so, even though intended to be nearly just so. Prior to stopping work each piece or layer is what was intended, but also what is acceptable under the circumstances and not exactly as intended.
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26664107 - 05/11/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you found an article to link to. Big deal. Seems you missed that I used quotes.
The claim that: "you know, left brain - right brain concepts are a fallacy, even for the purpose of symbolic discussion." ... is itself simply wrong --you are not in charge of how people use metaphor, and this is accepted popular usage -- its like saying Newtonian Physics is a fallacy, post Einstein, -- but Newtonian Physics got us to the moon.
People use the techniques called "right brain" in popular culture, all the time to over come "writer's block", feeling stuck artistically, and the "inner critic" etc., and the experience of enjoying creative work is quite different from your fixation, on getting credit for the the perfect answer here.
You are welcome to use the term "right brain"or not. We don't use general relativity theory when aiming a gun or cannon, when simpler Newtonian Physics work just fine. Seems to me telling folks (especially artists) what seems to be the latest neurology, is rather (to use an outdated Freudian term (but also still useful)) rather anal. Or some might rather say "left brain" or if you prefer 'pedantic', point being the terms don't matter and ain't about to change.
Once again, as is often the case on this forum, the trees and the forest have been mixed up. The gist of what I posted was about not mistaking belabored linear type thinking, as better than more spontaneous mental processes. That's all -- I won't belabor the point, or bother to argue it, if some find some value in it fine, if you don't that is also fine.
Edited by laughingdog (05/11/20 09:14 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26664218 - 05/11/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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newton is not fallacious the apple does fall every time. looks like you lost your actual thread by this left right march.
the amount of thinking you do before delivering your art (speech) may not affect the value of the work nor the credit you are due.
it is all the same, reflex, or reflex with governance, or reflex with extra governance: the zen archery of the result has little to do with the ego of the archer.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26664220 - 05/11/20 10:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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You might be right, ld, I might be oversimplifying. But I would say that, as far as the activity of the mind and brain, there is nothing "linear" about what I have described, at a fundamental level. And I think I agree with rgv when he says that, whether we take "left-" or "right-"brain processes, ultimately they are different forms of the same underlying neural activity, which always involves the whole brain.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26664262 - 05/11/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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where do you place the credit for invoking inspiration at will?
is the human tendency towards workaholism actually about a search for a state where the individual can have a non-conscious presence?
humans receive much pleasure in doing things in which conscious control is not utilized the whole time.
i needs me, but does me need i as well? me is giving i the piggyback ride. i has awareness of the technique, but me flows.
Quote:
The Centipede's Dilemma
A centipede was happy - quite!
Until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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we take pleasure where we can get it but being aware provides more than not being aware, and pleasure is just one of the traps not the only one that can divert our attention, irrational fear is even bigger.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
#26664452 - 05/11/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Did you ever try and discuss solipsism with Thanatos?
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26664588 - 05/11/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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probably it happened, but I was not aware of it as such; to some people everything exists in their own infinite mind.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines]
#26664598 - 05/11/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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how to conscious acts of creation differ from unconscious acts of creation?
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: how to conscious acts of creation differ from unconscious acts of creation?
The way I think of it is that: it is all conscious on some level. The products of the unconscious parts of ourselves are part of a conscious process, but it is one with which we are not usually joined. I think one function of psychedelics is to join the disparate parts together, thus "expanding consciousness."
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26664674 - 05/11/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: You might be right, ld, I might be oversimplifying. But I would say that, as far as the activity of the mind and brain, there is nothing "linear" about what I have described, at a fundamental level. And I think I agree with rgv when he says that, whether we take "left-" or "right-"brain processes, ultimately they are different forms of the same underlying neural activity, which always involves the whole brain.
IMO:
. First comes inspiration then editing, if one desires more than a business report. The editing is a "linear" process. The inspiration or what makes surprising, innovative, imaginative, and creative leaps--just like dreaming -- is a non linear process. To take credit (or to be proud of) for a business report because one labored over it, seems laughable, to anyone who is actually capable of original work.
. It is only because original work involves some letting go of the ego & literal conscious mind ( which is "the part", that loves getting 'credit'), that many don't want to acknowledge the ill defined aspects of our mind or self. Such folks generally prefer legality, certainty, & normality. . Like RGV you seem hung up on neurology, & being logically correct, also a "linear" modality, which works well in business, school and math class, but not when attempting anything original that might actually be worth "taking credit for". Who wants credit for writing just another hack piece, for reading in the summer on the beach, before being thrown in the trash?
. If writing like the genius Elmore Leonard, could be done by a slow fully conscious, effortful process many would be doing it, because it is so very very lucrative. But all the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do. Some admit this, and many prefer not to. . Watch some live interviews of Robin Williams (from his TV days), on Youtube and tell me how much slow fully conscious, effortful thought he puts into each character he switches into and out of, at lightning speed, at moments seemingly compulsively. Then tell me whether or not he 'should' "get credit" for being a genius. . In the case of enlightenment ( perhaps the greatest human "achievement" possible) and definitely not the result of any rational thought out process, ...so the taking credit & being proud of it, would of course be both laughable and a contradiction. So the assumption that getting credit or acquiring some sort of merit, is really good & worth while, seems to be really only a sort of booby prize. . Creativity is its own reward, the fame, praise, & money are only icing on the cake. And some types even make great efforts to avoid many of these sorts of trappings. And why is it, its own reward? Because it doesn't need to question itself, - the flow feels good, it doesn't need praise or credit or science, to feel and know verification. Just watch a truly happy child at play. No special 'artistic types' required to see this. IMO
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26664683 - 05/11/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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yes, all states joined at some level, but, what about the acts that arise from the states?
if both acts are the same thing, then wouldn't that be like living in a lucid dream 24/7?
one not induced by consuming external mind altering substances or by going to sleep.
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laughingdog
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Re: thealienthatategod
Some reading of the work of Milton Erickson, will tell you more about the differences between the 'unconscious' and 'conscious' minds than any theories ever will. They are also very interesting, full of good stories, and show a sense of humor. Just google him. Also some good books about him, and free pdfs online.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: laughingdog]
#26664946 - 05/11/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: . If writing like the genius Elmore Leonard, could be done by a slow fully conscious, effortful process many would be doing it, because it is so very very lucrative. But all the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do. Some admit this, and many prefer not to.
Your whole post is good, but this is what stood out to me. I think it encapsulates the whole thrust of what I intended to explore in this thread. "All the greatest creators don't really know how they do what they do." I think that's right -- it's just a flow state, it just happens. The willful "freedom" inheres in whether to go to the easel, or the piano, or the word processor, and let it happen. Or conversely to go the store or have a snack or otherwise procrastinate, instead.
Many do prefer not to admit it, but it's the truth.
As far as linear vs. nonlinear thinking, I don't really have strong opinions. As you point out, degrees of creativity can be attached to anything -- a sales report vs. a classical statue vs. a Monet, and whatnot. But I really have no idea why some people can do one and not another, and it's not something I think about.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26665061 - 05/11/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think its all concsious except for some of sleep
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26665094 - 05/11/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I use surfing as an internal analogy often.
The best surfers are geniuses of flow. They cannot preconceive their actions until the wave is upon them. It is those who form unison that do best.
From the beach the surfer looks amazing because he or she was in thoughtless flow.
Was it the wave? Was it the Surfer?
And most importantly was there any difference?
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
#26665242 - 05/11/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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So if you are saying something is clever...are you therefore clever? or must the whole notion of clever be breached? And therefore need a clever examination of ones own cleverness?
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock]
#26665248 - 05/11/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think its the innocent fool in us that feels like taking credit for something is clever..or even honestly truthful and outgoing at the same time?
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#26665257 - 05/11/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think that no matter how solid you feel the subject or self is, if you to peel back enough layers you would find a point of...fluidity...that denies any ability to separate or be absolute...about anything. Credit or not included.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja] 1
#26665262 - 05/11/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
pineninja said: I think that no matter how solid you feel the subject or self is, if you to peel back enough layers you would find a point of...fluidity...that denies any ability to separate or be absolute...about anything. Credit or not included.
Definitely.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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