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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Taking credit for the clever things we say * 1
    #26655769 - 05/07/20 08:37 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655796 - 05/07/20 08:52 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

In a conventional sense it can mean something, or rather - designate a point of origin as to the author ie. The individual’s mind in which whatever is being given credit for - first emerged from or appeared.

Upon closer inspection it begins to fall apart, but as a convention to be used in the relative mundane planes (a non absolutist view) it comes in handy.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26655875 - 05/07/20 09:35 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

I suppose I agree. In a purely conventional way, giving or taking credit refers to an individual mind as an origin for a certain thought, but this is a purely emergent picture. Another example of an emergent convention is to say, "I caused the milk to spill." Clearly, when milk spills, we have all sorts of phenomena coming together, like ion potentials in the brain and nervous system, muscular movements, molecular motions, the dimension of accident, etc., etc. Analogously, an awful lot goes into a thought or expression.

As you point out, upon inspection, the whole notion that one is unconditionally originating a certain idea is preposterous. But then, I do think people take the concept beyond its emergent usefulness into some sort of assumption of control, which obviously is dubious.


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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655898 - 05/07/20 09:45 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

What is the better model then?  Some degree of responsibility and consequently credit must be due.

It is a question of world view.  On one extreme one is fully responsibly for everything they do and the results they get.  On the other hand there is a more tragic sense and a systems perspective.  As in the collective is singular and first instead of the individual.  This effects things like guilt, grief, credit etc.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655918 - 05/07/20 09:52 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Yes DQ - i have found most people i relate with making that error - or displaying it, myself included - but its so simplified its easy to use in speech with another  when one wants to point to something as the cause or origin of an effect or thing.  I’m sure many know deep down that its a limited convention like gimmick, but they dont necessarily speak up every time because to go into it and down the rabbit hole every time is cumbersome at times.

The system or model that approximates the “way it is” isnt fit for mass consumption imho.  Maybe if one were raised with it, schooled in it for a few decades- something such as Abhidhamma or something akin to it that attempts to cover all the bases.  But with the way of the world right now, that seems an irrational expectation to have for everyone.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655919 - 05/07/20 09:53 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

I usually try to say one thing in a way to provide a few meanings that are not contradictory, it is an act I am proud of, but I never get any credit or discounts.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26655926 - 05/07/20 09:55 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

I notice and appreciate it RGV  :bow2:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655985 - 05/07/20 10:26 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
What is the better model then?  Some degree of responsibility and consequently credit must be due.

It is a question of world view.  On one extreme one is fully responsibly for everything they do and the results they get.  On the other hand there is a more tragic sense and a systems perspective.  As in the collective is singular and first instead of the individual.  This effects things like guilt, grief, credit etc.





Well I think creative acts and many of those involving personal responsibility are possibly of a different nature. My original suggestion was that, supposing there is some sort of coherent phenomenon driving our creativity, or whatever is involved with creative acts at all -- are we really originating anything, or are we more a kind of conduit for this phenomenon? And if we are more a vessel than a source, who is taking credit for what?


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OfflineYellow Pants
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26655996 - 05/07/20 10:34 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Oh I see.  This may get into the sticky conscious/subconscious territory. 

Personally I thank myself for all successes and curse the astral soul for any shortcomings.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656141 - 05/07/20 11:46 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

It depends on how you define what is or isn't us.

I would say that even the unconscious parts of the mind that generate what I say beyond my control are still a part of me, and therefore it is still me talking even when I haven't had any conscious control. I still have control in a different sense because I still define that part of me (which is producing speech) to be me despite the fact that I don't directly feel aware of it or in control of it. Yet by functioning, something within me that I define as a part of me has control over its function to some extent, and therefore its product (speech for example) is still produced by "me" in some way. Or even if the unconscious part of me that produces speech has no real "control," its design and its results are still a part of "me" and therefore I am still speaking even when I don't have "control" or "awareness" of my production of speech in a certain sense.

Interesting thing in psychology related to this: if you ask people to tell you why and how they came up with the words that they're saying, how they decided to say those exact words in that order, etc. they can't do it and will instead often confabulate/make up an answer. Why we say what we say and how we arrive at the exact things that we say are partially or largely unconscious processes.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656291 - 05/08/20 01:01 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Can we ever take credit for the clever things we say? If you say something quickly, but had nothing to do with what your brain produced, then I would say no. If you reason something out, with intent, arrive at a point, hold it in your awareness and evaluate it, and then say it, then maybe you can take a little more credit. It is all a matter of awareness, but I am not sure, in the end, we can honestly take any credit for that creative fire that we do not really control.

We can channel and manipulate it, but do we ever truly control it? Certainly each good brain makes its imprint. But does “taking credit” even mean anything?




seems the question is sort of like another version of: what is the self? and/ or: is there free will?
but i'm not sure a yes or no answer is called for.

no one else could have painted the Sistine Chapel other than Michelangelo .
But many of Robert Louis Stevenson's stories were written, by or in, his dreams.

seems to me the world doesn't have to fit our conceptual categories.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26656299 - 05/08/20 01:11 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

It can "mean" something once it is observered or listened to...but only to the witness.

To you it is an intangible that is immeasurable and should not be given weight.

A flower deserves no credit for being, it's beauty and meaning are constructed by the observer.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja]
    #26656447 - 05/08/20 03:17 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

If I don't take the credit, God will. And I'm not letting that fucker take the credit.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656520 - 05/08/20 04:31 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

the ego piggybacks on the spirit (the creative genius), however, when low on horsepower it is possible for the spirit to piggyback on ego.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26656526 - 05/08/20 04:33 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
A flower deserves no credit for being, it's beauty and meaning are constructed by the observer.




Beauty is not caused. It is.

--Emily Dickinson


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26656531 - 05/08/20 04:46 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

The question isn't should you take credit for things you say.. but the question is.. is it honest for me to say it?


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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26656538 - 05/08/20 04:54 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

i would think that each persons can only answer that question for themselves, relative to themself.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: nooneman]
    #26656627 - 05/08/20 06:55 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I notice and appreciate it RGV  :bow2:



gosh thanks...
Quote:

nooneman said:
...
Interesting thing in psychology related to this: if you ask people to tell you why and how they came up with the words that they're saying, how they decided to say those exact words in that order, etc. they can't do it and will instead often confabulate/make up an answer. Why we say what we say and how we arrive at the exact things that we say are partially or largely unconscious processes.



this correlates to the picture above with alice being asked to explain herself.
the difficulty in explaining why you say what you say is the same difficulty one might have in explaining each muscle being coordinated while you walk or sit down.
we learn complex coordination  and can be motivated to repeat actions that are complex or even create new moves spontaneously as on the tennis court or while playing music, or even speaking.

anything difficult to explain is attributed to unconscious or god.
given awareness and time, the fog lifts and things can be explained without magic.

that you can stymie someone into an inexplicability corner is not proof of subconscious mind, it is proof of a dominant role played (eg therapist and subject - or caterpillar and alice)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26656952 - 05/08/20 11:09 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Getting back to one of my points above, is there a difference between saying something quickly, and slowly generating a thought, holding it in the awareness, evaluating it and then letting it come out? Could we take credit for the latter and not the former? Or both? Or neither?

It would seem that everything we are involved in is a kind of flow. Do we create anew out of this flow? Can we steer it? Or does it control us? I think these notions are subtly different than the standard old free will debate, because I am trying to suggest that creativity is a very deep process, and it is a question as to whether we "control" this natural process to any degree when we are clever or creative. This is to me a somewhat novel question, at least as far as pure creativity does not equate to all standard behaviors.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Taking credit for the clever things we say [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26657185 - 05/08/20 01:06 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

We can put the right factors into play/place in the right order of operations and appropriate quantity (ratio/recipe) and balanced measure so as to give rise to the condition(s) which generate the relevant state of mind from which we can do so.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (05/08/20 01:52 PM)


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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