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InvisibleYellow Pants
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race things/things on race etc
    #26655666 - 05/07/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

What is race, I’m not entirely sure.  Is it ethnicity or could it be ethnicity?  Certainly it’s a biological category (East Asian, Black, Euro).  At what point does it morph or is a black person always a black person despite talking English and wearing blue jeans...

Has there been studies suggesting one thing or another related to race etc.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655678 - 05/07/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Biologically and scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as race.
It’s a vague social construct that doesn’t really mean anything, as what “race” is changes from culture to culture, and even from person to person.

Most people conflate it with the color of someone’s skin, but skin color isn’t entirely correlated with ethnic or geographic origins. For example, a white person can have more African genes than a black person.

Race is just a made up reason to divide and categorize people. Anthropologists and biologists largely agree, there is no such thing as biological “race”.


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Offlineqman
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26655722 - 05/07/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There is no absolute genetic race, yet there are racial traits that are genetic.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: qman]
    #26655745 - 05/07/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
There is no absolute genetic race, yet there are racial traits that are genetic.




All traits are genetic. But since there is no race, there are no racial traits.


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Offlineqman
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26655782 - 05/07/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Quote:

qman said:
There is no absolute genetic race, yet there are racial traits that are genetic.




All traits are genetic. But since there is no race, there are no racial traits.




If you want to go down the road of semantics and absolutes, then you are correct.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655843 - 05/07/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:

What is race, I’m not entirely sure.  Is it ethnicity or could it be ethnicity?  Certainly it’s a biological category (East Asian, Black, Euro). 




Unsure what a biological category is. When I filled out my US census form recently, I noticed Egyptians are listed as white.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26655861 - 05/07/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:

What is race, I’m not entirely sure.  Is it ethnicity or could it be ethnicity?  Certainly it’s a biological category (East Asian, Black, Euro). 




Unsure what a biological category is. When I filled out my US census form recently, I noticed Egyptians are listed as white.




Biological category does sound a bit extreme.  Maybe genetic sub-specie.

I don’t think the US census knows what the hell their talking about.  Middle Easterners often get lumped in as the white “race”.  An outdated term.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26655906 - 05/07/20 07:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

it's about history and the migrations of our ancestors, and it's about crimes of one ethnic group unto another.
we should not forget the past, and should not repeat the folly of those crimes,
there is a long way to go yet,


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655910 - 05/07/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This thread feels like some classic race baiting looking for a fight, but reading the responses I feel like OP is going to be disappointed.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: nooneman]
    #26655973 - 05/07/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
This thread feels like some classic race baiting looking for a fight, but reading the responses I feel like OP is going to be disappointed.




I’ll credit RJ Tubbs for inspiring that.

Although I bit.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26655978 - 05/07/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Humans all have a unique complexion. 

Also, I’m pretty sure a race is when 2 or more people compete to see who is faster.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: qman]
    #26656008 - 05/07/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Quote:

qman said:
There is no absolute genetic race, yet there are racial traits that are genetic.




All traits are genetic. But since there is no race, there are no racial traits.




If you want to go down the road of semantics and absolutes, then you are correct.




My argument is based on biology, not semantics. If you have anything to offer besides an uninformed opinion, please, show us the science.

The racial categories are completely arbitrary. If you're going to say people are different "races" based on the colour of their skin, why not make some more based on the colour of their hair? Or what hand they prefer to write with?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26656303 - 05/07/20 11:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

re: yellow pants / 'What is race?'
.    Eskimos are physically different from the African  Maasai, ( in some ways but not in other ways). Presumably if they met they could mate and produce offspring. Many of us have some Neanderthal genes as well as those of a number of other hominids.
(recent research confirms this). Many folks like to fuck what they find exotic, or what their parents don't approve of. Billions of people are the result. Hitler and notions of 'racial purity' are pure fantasy or bull shit. All life adapts to circumstances eventually and all circumstances change.
.    When populations become isolated from one another, for so long that they can no longer produce offspring from mating they are called a different 'species'. Race is not a scientific term. A little study of biology makes all this quite clear.
.    But the basics are as stated above.

.  As regards: " is a black person always a black person despite talking English and wearing blue jeans..."
.    it seems, that the above question confuses physical characteristics  with culture, and also that it is assumed there are only two choices.
.  Many travelers and anthropologists are at home in many different cultures and speak many different languages.
.    Also there is perhaps the assumption that all "blacks" are the same.
.    It would seem 'racism' despite its nasty results, is partly simply based on false assumptions, although some unsavory negative emotions, and projections also play their parts.


Edited by laughingdog (05/07/20 11:49 PM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: laughingdog]
    #26656982 - 05/08/20 09:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Laughingdog, good points.  However I think that genetics and ethnicity the conditioned and unconditional aspects of a person aren’t without some kind of binding.  After all, in order to produce an ethnicity would presume that a category of people have come together which indicates genetic binding.  You can’t really have one without the other.  So I would disagree with some other posters and say that genetic categories aren’t arbitrary, although “race” seems unbecoming.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26657969 - 05/08/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

what you refer to as binding, is the result of historical migration and isolation, followed by periods of trade and joining with others, and then further migration and isolation. later to be revised with the rise of cities and empires with more migration and isolation and joining with others.

the reasons people make up for why they live someplace and are different than other people are innumerable, and they truly believe them.

we are all kinda dumb that way.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26658146 - 05/08/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
in order to produce an ethnicity would presume that a category of people have come together which indicates genetic binding.  You can’t really have one without the other.





Except that you CAN have one without the other. Adoption is one such example; if a white person adopts a brown Latin American baby, that baby does *not* grow up ethnically Hispanic. But if a Latino couple adopts a white baby, that child does grow up ethnically Hispanic. Ethnicity is tied to culture, not genetics.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26658733 - 05/08/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what you refer to as binding, is the result of .... joining with others.

the reasons people make up for why they live someplace and are different than other people are innumerable, and they truly believe them.

we are all kinda dumb that way.




Yup folks love us versus them games. If they can't go to war, they play sports, or politics, or divorce, or in America bringing lawsuits.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: laughingdog]
    #26659272 - 05/09/20 05:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what you refer to as binding, is the result of .... joining with others.

the reasons people make up for why they live someplace and are different than other people are innumerable, and they truly believe them.

we are all kinda dumb that way.




Yup folks love us versus them games. If they can't go to war, they play sports, or politics, or divorce, or in America bringing lawsuits.



your edit of my sentence inside your quotation of it reversed the meaning of my sentence - completely.
oh well.
what you describe is also a stupid human pattern but unrelated to long term human migrations resettlement and trade that I am alluding to.

did you mean to make that mistake?


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26659619 - 05/09/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think laughingdog was just cutting your quote down, & was focusing on the middle paragraph. You said people make up reasons for being “different”, and s/he pointed out this is “us/them” mentality. Which may be part of human nature, but that certainly doesn’t make it an accurate depiction of reality.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26659680 - 05/09/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

yup, exactly


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26659767 - 05/09/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
in order to produce an ethnicity would presume that a category of people have come together which indicates genetic binding.  You can’t really have one without the other.





Except that you CAN have one without the other. Adoption is one such example; if a white person adopts a brown Latin American baby, that baby does *not* grow up ethnically Hispanic. But if a Latino couple adopts a white baby, that child does grow up ethnically Hispanic. Ethnicity is tied to culture, not genetics.




True, I mean there is no doubt about what you are saying, it seems to be focusing in on the particular tho.  Looking at history and the world now it’s hard to not see genetics tied to culture and ethnicity.  Not caused but perhaps correlated might be accurate to say.  Go to east Asia and you will find a specific genetic category, same with Europe/Africa etc. 

An example of North America, two different genetic and ethnic cultures where it would be hard to separate genetics from that equation with the Europeans and the natives.


Here is a found article not overly long, quick read.  Basically a smart high status guy making some comments about how culture can effect genetics. 

https://www.edge.org/response-detail/10456


Edited by Yellow Pants (05/09/20 12:20 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26660247 - 05/09/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting article. Of course no eskimos or bushmen, etc., wear glasses, whereas all so called 'races' do now.

Of course there are some behavioral differences that correspond to some physical differences.
It maybe easier for more orientals to sit cross legged than for most westerners, due either to differences in knee and hip joints, or to not using chairs as much.

In central America & Mexico the Ancient mayans had a culture full of warfare and torture, one of the most brutal ever. Today the Mayan indians of that area are a peaceful people.

the same principle (that culture & social pressure dominate both individuals and nationality and other such categories) is shown by this:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=philip+zimbardo+prison+experiment&t=hd&ia=web

and this

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanley+milgram+experiment&t=hd&ia=web

So whenever there is an attempt to put a group of people down based on their appearance one may legitimately expect that an egotistical agenda is at work. This seems to be the true nature of the idea of race.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: laughingdog]
    #26660601 - 05/09/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Reading that article just makes me think the author’s been falling behind on keeping up with science for a while. We’ve known for quite some time that epigenetics affects what genes a person passes on throughout their own single lifetime - for example, children born during times of famine are much better adapted to surviving future famines (whereas children born during bumper crop years are much more likely to die during famines).

We’ve also tracked some very profound ways that “modernity” (another misnomer the author uses) affects us as a species - such as how birth control and deodorant completely change who people choose to pair bond with (often making less fit children instead of the natural tendency to pair with partners with different alleles to produce more fit offspring).

It may be easy to use the conventional notion of dividing people into “white, Asian, Native American , etc”, but that’s just not all that meaningful or useful beyond discriminatory purposes. And it fails to acknowledge the multitude of peoples who exist within a single one of those categories. “Asians”, “African”, and “Native Americans” are composed of hundreds, if not thousands of distinct peoples with their own culture, language, and/or prevalent phenotypes.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26662301 - 05/10/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Idk I feel there are some uses in seeing genetic differences in people beyond that of discrimination.  A genetically native person has a different perspective and manner of expression if you are white.  I use this example because I myself am of European descent I must confess.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26662415 - 05/10/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
We’ve known for quite some time that epigenetics affects what genes a person passes on throughout their own single lifetime




Epigenetics doesn't change what genes a person passes on, it changes how those genes are expressed.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Freedom]
    #26662820 - 05/10/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

it's a foggy area,
Nonchromosomal DNA - such as mitochondrial DNA are inherited without gene's involved, though it is very much inheritance (matrilinear among humans - for the most part - although apparently some is found in sperm)
Other organelle or free DNA can be inherited as well (i.e. transferred from egg or sperm to the zygote)

Epigenetics has been extended to include non-chromosomal and non-DNA (environmental) conditioning that has a life long persisting effect, and that is where this line of investigation goes.

There are also people seriously ( it is lunacy) hunting for an epigenetic transfer of knowledge or memory using some strange inferences and logic that includes the following: DNA is a code, computers run code, DNA is DATA, computers process data, the mind has DNA, the mind is a computer using knowledge and code so memory is preserved in DNA and can be inherited.[FALSE}


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Freedom]
    #26662841 - 05/10/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Idk I feel there are some uses in seeing genetic differences in people beyond that of discrimination.




Such as?

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
A genetically native person raised in a different culture has a different perspective and manner of expression if you are white regardless of their skin colour or genes.




Fixed.

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
We’ve known for quite some time that epigenetics affects what genes a person passes on throughout their own single lifetime




Epigenetics doesn't change what genes a person passes on, it changes how those genes are expressed.




Touché, although that clarification doesn’t really change the point of how we know our environment shapes our offspring (i.e., humans are far from removed from the process of evolution aka survival of the fittest).


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26663040 - 05/10/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Idk I feel there are some uses in seeing genetic differences in people beyond that of discrimination.




Such as?

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
A genetically native person raised in a different culture has a different perspective and manner of expression if you are white regardless of their skin colour or genes.




Fixed.





A simple basic good willed desire to see the genetic differences in people and to think about the time and variables that worked into the different ways humanity expresses itself.  A kind of esthetic if you will.  Not unlike culture but from a genetic and physical characteristic standpoint.

And I have to believe that a persons genetic history regardless of cultural conditioning plays a role in how that person manifests.  Not only from social perception but from elemental parts of their being that influence tendencies and processes.  I imagine the genes reflect the exterior and vice versa.  So if you have a pre existing set of genes before entering into a given culture that deviates from the common genetic sets in that culture then that must affect things in way that it otherwise wouldn’t.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26663089 - 05/10/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I guess I can get behind the "aesthetic" thing (them brown girls, yo :heart:), but appearances often have very little correlation with the rest of someone's genes. You can respect diversity without sweeping people into cliché categories, especially ones that presume to define their character traits.

Speaking of which, the second half of your post just reeks of eugenics, pseudoscience BS. So I'mma have to assume you're some kind of closet-Nazi until you can elaborate and prove otherwise. :shrug:


--------------------
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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26663293 - 05/10/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hm I see.  Well, if pressed “dem black bitches” would take the cake but of course to each his own.  And I do see the cliche point and will be aware but it is convenient. 

However I do not understand your insecurity with the idea that genes as in ones genetic history may inevitably affect things in a person.  Personally I am of German descent so that might be what your detecting which I guess is somewhat the point.  Genes cover time and influence on the individual level.  I’m not saying there’s a master race or to kill all those who oppose or anything like that.  Nazism is certainly crossing a line.


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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons] * 1
    #26663332 - 05/10/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
I guess I can get behind the "aesthetic" thing (them brown girls, yo :heart:), but appearances often have very little correlation with the rest of someone's genes. You can respect diversity without sweeping people into cliché categories, especially ones that presume to define their character traits.

Speaking of which, the second half of your post just reeks of eugenics, pseudoscience BS. So I'mma have to assume you're some kind of closet-Nazi until you can elaborate and prove otherwise. :shrug:




.  People are products of their environment & culture. No eskimos living in the arctic will become either mathematicians or mafia members. People who become cops or soldiers are under intense pressure, to undergo extreme male bonding, and end up covering each others asses, no matter what, as their ideals erode over time.
.  Of course those who are well off, in modern urban settings, with some education appear to have more choices. But if we consider psychology and the prevalence and persistence of mental problems, in modern society, this also seems on closer inspection, to show the effects of the stress in its many forms that is part of busy urban settings.
.  Freewill or choice seems largely illusion. As perhaps the largest factor in determining much of many folks lives, is economics and/or government--the more totalitarian the country, the more this is true.
.  Seems to me generally genetics takes a back seat, to the these huge background forces that determine, the stage on which individual dramas take place.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26663349 - 05/10/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)



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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: laughingdog]
    #26666540 - 05/12/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said: 
However I do not understand your insecurity with the idea that genes as in ones genetic history may inevitably affect things in a person.  Personally I am of German descent so that might be what your detecting which I guess is somewhat the point.  Genes cover time and influence on the individual level.  I’m not saying there’s a master race or to kill all those who oppose or anything like that.  Nazism is certainly crossing a line.





That our genes affect who we are beyond what we look like is most certainly true. Beyond doubt,  some people are predisposed to be more intelligent, get an addiction, or die from cancer. But skin colour just isn’t a reliable predictor for 99.99% of what makes us who we are.

I’m also of German descent, my mother’s straight from the Rheinland. But I’m darker than everyone else in my family. I’ve even had people (“people of colour” mind you) ask what “race” I am or if I’m “mixed” :lol:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26666996 - 05/12/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe you were African or Indian in a previous life.


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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26671043 - 05/14/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Maybe you were African or Indian in a previous life.




Maybe, but that explanation throws a pretty big wrench in the whole hypothesis of skin colour/race/character traits linkage, no? :lol:

There’s definitely something to say about genes & character traits tho. What are the odds we’d end up being two krauts with a healthy obsession with dark skinned women. That’s bonkers! Or totally normal. Who knows?


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Re: race things/things on race etc [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #26672544 - 05/15/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I was just spewin nonsense.  No, I think our obsession with darker women is testament to the esthetic factor at play in genetics.  It must go deeper than skin color.  Although skin color is obvious.


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