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DdaShroom
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Black finger like mushroom ID
#26653604 - 05/06/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Growing on completely dead wood. Log is off the ground but still horizontal. In nebraska in a state park.
Seemed to be dried up.
65 defreed today and it rained past 2 days in a row.
Xylaria polymorpha?
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26653623 - 05/06/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Xylaria polymorpha. There are a few very similar species that we could distinguish only with a microscope.
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#26653632 - 05/06/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToxicMan said: Xylaria polymorpha. There are a few very similar species that we could distinguish only with a microscope.
It's not Xylaria longipes?
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26653639 - 05/06/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26653758 - 05/06/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Without a microscope (where the difference is easy), the main difference between the two is generally the stem length. As the epithet "longipes" suggests, X. longipes should have a fairly long stem.
X. longipes would be one of the similar species that I mentioned in my earlier post.
Did you actually make a collection? If so, we can work something out to get a positive ID.
-------------------- Happy mushrooming!
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#26655024 - 05/07/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToxicMan said: Without a microscope (where the difference is easy), the main difference between the two is generally the stem length. As the epithet "longipes" suggests, X. longipes should have a fairly long stem.
X. longipes would be one of the similar species that I mentioned in my earlier post.
Did you actually make a collection? If so, we can work something out to get a positive ID.
I did not but I could go back and grab some if youd be interested. I would be very interested!
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26655161 - 05/07/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I sent you a private message, and yes I'm interested. Let me know.
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#26679232 - 05/18/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK, after microscopic examination, these are neither X. polymorpha or X. longipes.
They match most closely with X. curta Fries.
Using the papers by Jack Rogers, the spores are the primary feature used to distinguish the species. The spores from these are 8.7-9.0 x 4.3-4.6 microns, limoniform, amyloid, smooth, unicellular, with a flattened side, and with a long straight germ slit that extends a little less than the entire length of the spore.

The spores are too small for either X. polymorpha or X. longipes. Also, the germ slit in X. longipes spirals around the spore rather than being straight along the major axis of the spore.
These spores are remarkably small for a Xylaria (even at the low end for X. curta). Although X. curta is recorded around the world, it is originally a European species. I haven't seen a recent paper comparing the genome of the US collections with European (or other) collections, so the name may be changed when that process is completed.
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#26679929 - 05/18/20 10:03 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToxicMan said: OK, after microscopic examination, these are neither X. polymorpha or X. longipes.
They match most closely with X. curta Fries.
Using the papers by Jack Rogers, the spores are the primary feature used to distinguish the species. The spores from these are 8.7-9.0 x 4.3-4.6 microns, limoniform, amyloid, smooth, unicellular, with a flattened side, and with a long straight germ slit that extends a little less than the entire length of the spore.

The spores are too small for either X. polymorpha or X. longipes. Also, the germ slit in X. longipes spirals around the spore rather than being straight along the major axis of the spore.
These spores are remarkably small for a Xylaria (even at the low end for X. curta). Although X. curta is recorded around the world, it is originally a European species. I haven't seen a recent paper comparing the genome of the US collections with European (or other) collections, so the name may be changed when that process is completed.
From what research I've done since receiving this update ive gathered that on MushroomObserver and iNaturalist, theres only 1 observation created (on iNat). Does that mean it's a rather rare species?
I've also read that sometimes the only way to differentiate between Xylaria is through indepth testing beyond spores?
"The internal transcribed spacer (ITS) regions 1 and 2 located between the highly conserved small (18S) and large (28S) ribosomal subunit genes in the rRNA operon are known to have sufficient sequence variability to allow identification to the species level for many fungi (Brandt et al. 2005, White et al. 1990)."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://mycosphere.org/pdfs/MC3_5_No8.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjL35Pvg7_pAhVGOs0KHaOGCCYQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0gjgGKRaPuMpD3WQ6Fj7AZ
What is the likelihood it is Xylaria Curta? This same link shared above claims curta usually grows from soil, yet this was growing from a decaying/downed tree? Thanks so much for all your help by the way
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26680032 - 05/18/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DdaShroom said: This is where it was found
https://files.shroomery.org/files/20-19/881383205-20200506_144327.jpg
Also just realized this photo could be conceived as a bit of an optical illusion. The hospital log in the photo is about 2 feet OFF the ground
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26680587 - 05/19/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Does that mean it's a rather rare species?
No, not really. The IDs on iNaturalist are almost all done based on a regular photo of the fruiting body. Without microscopy or DNA sequencing being done, the names given are generally the species that occur in the common guide books.
Quote:
curta usually grows from soil, yet this was growing from a decaying/downed tree
All Xylaria species are wood rotters. When they appear to be growing from soil, the wood is buried. The authors of that paper are showing what they see, but they are in a tropical region. Most fungi are fairly variable. They tend to adapt to their local environment. One of the first times we found X. polymorpha it appeared to be growing from soil, but a little digging showed that they were actually coming from some dead tree roots about 4 inches underground.
Quote:
I've also read that sometimes the only way to differentiate between Xylaria is through indepth testing beyond spores?
In general this is true for the vast majority of mushrooms. In practice, we generally rely on published species lists and descriptions for our geographic area. Somebody who is an authority on a group examines collections from an area and does all the extra things they need to do to make accurate determinations of the species. They then publish their list and relatively simplified keys so that IDs can be made without having to do all the extra stuff. If you look at the list of species in Xylaria on Wikipedia, it's a fairly large genus. The US has fairly few of those species. Jack Rogers' papers indicate that we can distinguish between our species by examining the spores with a microscope, so that is the method I used. Is it possible that they will turn out to be something else when the DNA is eventually sequenced? Of course! All IDs (by anybody) should be considered as provisional. If you examine the list of synonyms for a species (especially common species), you'll see a bunch of really different names. Somebody thought they had a new species, but a later authority decided that the two species are actually the same.
In the end, this ID of this collection as Xylaria curta is my current best guess. That guess is based on the most current key for Xylarias in the US. Once the herbarium reopens and I can place the collection there, it will be available to researchers elsewhere that may want to study it. The herbarium regularly sends collections to researchers all over the world, and those researchers often decide that the correct ID is something different than the original one. One of the big things we ask of those researchers is that they annotate the collection to reflect their opinion on what the correct ID should be.
-------------------- Happy mushrooming!
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#26680647 - 05/19/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ToxicMan said:
Quote:
Does that mean it's a rather rare species?
No, not really. The IDs on iNaturalist are almost all done based on a regular photo of the fruiting body. Without microscopy or DNA sequencing being done, the names given are generally the species that occur in the common guide books.
Quote:
curta usually grows from soil, yet this was growing from a decaying/downed tree
All Xylaria species are wood rotters. When they appear to be growing from soil, the wood is buried. The authors of that paper are showing what they see, but they are in a tropical region. Most fungi are fairly variable. They tend to adapt to their local environment. One of the first times we found X. polymorpha it appeared to be growing from soil, but a little digging showed that they were actually coming from some dead tree roots about 4 inches underground.
Quote:
I've also read that sometimes the only way to differentiate between Xylaria is through indepth testing beyond spores?
In general this is true for the vast majority of mushrooms. In practice, we generally rely on published species lists and descriptions for our geographic area. Somebody who is an authority on a group examines collections from an area and does all the extra things they need to do to make accurate determinations of the species. They then publish their list and relatively simplified keys so that IDs can be made without having to do all the extra stuff. If you look at the list of species in Xylaria on Wikipedia, it's a fairly large genus. The US has fairly few of those species. Jack Rogers' papers indicate that we can distinguish between our species by examining the spores with a microscope, so that is the method I used. Is it possible that they will turn out to be something else when the DNA is eventually sequenced? Of course! All IDs (by anybody) should be considered as provisional. If you examine the list of synonyms for a species (especially common species), you'll see a bunch of really different names. Somebody thought they had a new species, but a later authority decided that the two species are actually the same.
In the end, this ID of this collection as Xylaria curta is my current best guess. That guess is based on the most current key for Xylarias in the US. Once the herbarium reopens and I can place the collection there, it will be available to researchers elsewhere that may want to study it. The herbarium regularly sends collections to researchers all over the world, and those researchers often decide that the correct ID is something different than the original one. One of the big things we ask of those researchers is that they annotate the collection to reflect their opinion on what the correct ID should be.
Very interesting! I had no clue about them exclusively being wood rotters. I also read some of Rogers' papers on the jstor. Mainly this one https://www.jstor.org/stable/3793042
It mentions a few species: schweinitzii, grandis, scruposa, castorea....
Is curta synonymous with one of these species in this paper?
And if that is the case, that it is curta, is that rather uncommon to find atleast in the United States? Are there any collections of curta in the Denver herbarium?
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ToxicMan
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#26681001 - 05/19/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The key in that paper is the one I used that leads to an ID of X. curta. The key begins on page 399. I gave enough spore features for you to go through the key.
That paper doesn't give a description of X. curta. It does mention at the start that it's the fourth in a series of papers on the genus. The description for X. curta is given in the 1983 paper by Rogers mentioned in the Literature Cited section (page 400).
There are currently no collections that have been identified as X. curta at DBG. Neither is that species currently recorded from either Colorado or Nebraska in any herbaria in MycoPortal.
If you want to search collections in various herbaria, try going to https://mycoportal.org/portal/index.php
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DdaShroom
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: ToxicMan]
#27029949 - 11/09/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Was this ever determined?
Quote:
ToxicMan said: OK, after microscopic examination, these are neither X. polymorpha or X. longipes.
They match most closely with X. curta Fries.
Using the papers by Jack Rogers, the spores are the primary feature used to distinguish the species. The spores from these are 8.7-9.0 x 4.3-4.6 microns, limoniform, amyloid, smooth, unicellular, with a flattened side, and with a long straight germ slit that extends a little less than the entire length of the spore.

The spores are too small for either X. polymorpha or X. longipes. Also, the germ slit in X. longipes spirals around the spore rather than being straight along the major axis of the spore.
These spores are remarkably small for a Xylaria (even at the low end for X. curta). Although X. curta is recorded around the world, it is originally a European species. I haven't seen a recent paper comparing the genome of the US collections with European (or other) collections, so the name may be changed when that process is completed.
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ToxicMan
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Registered: 06/28/02
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Re: Black finger like mushroom ID [Re: DdaShroom]
#27030809 - 11/09/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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When we can get them to the herbarium they will, eventually, be DNA sequenced. That sequence will then be compared to existing published sequences to verify the ID. The delay is coming up with the money and time to have it done.
Unfortunately, the pace of science in the official peer reviewed world is pretty glacial. When I dug up a collection that resulted in the naming of a new genus it took like 5 years for things to happen. And that was with a collection that didn't match anything around.
-------------------- Happy mushrooming!
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