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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Psilocybe cubensis type collection * 1
    #26647546 - 05/04/20 06:12 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Today I found photos of the holotype collection of Psilocybe cubensis on Mycoportal. It was collected on July 19, 1904 in La Habana, Santiago de las Vegas, Cuba by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Sumner_Earle. It was published as Stropharia cubensis in 1906 and Rolf Singer moved it into Psilocybe in 1948.

While it was discovered in and named after Cuba, it's a recent introduction and is native to Asia. This is the only non-native Psilocybe species found in the Americas, and is one of the few Psilocybe species that grows on dung.

It's closest relative is Psilocybe chuxiongensis from China, and second closest is Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata. (see phylogenetic tree) It is possible that it could be hybridized with these species.



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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26647550 - 05/04/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

This is Awesome!


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Allium]
    #26647639 - 05/04/20 07:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Very cool!


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26648181 - 05/04/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Well indeed Mr. Rockefeller, wonderful genetic information with the closest of kin.

Interesting indeed. I will be looking into this immediately. Or "viewing" into this as due to our country's federal regulations.

Information *noted.

This was documented on my birthday on July 19 , 1904


Edited by SannyTIES (05/04/20 12:00 PM)


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: SannyTIES]
    #26648209 - 05/04/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Cool findings Alan


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26648275 - 05/04/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I noticed recently you were trying to source high quality Ovoid prints from the Ovoid forums.  Are you planning to attempt this potential hybridization?


Edited by Alan Rockefeller (05/04/20 02:28 PM)


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: donjonson420] * 1
    #26648479 - 05/04/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

donjonson420 said:
I noticed recently you were trying to source high quality Ovoid prints from the Ovoid forums.  Are you planning to attempt this potential hybridization?





No, but someone should.  If mating single spore isolates doesn't work, snake venom likely would.  People have recently been having a lot of success mating different Panaeolus species with venom.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26649430 - 05/04/20 11:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Alan, what do you think the chances of anastomosis and hybridisation occurring in dikaryons of these closely related species?


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26649437 - 05/05/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Fascinating! It's interesting that it was collected as early as 1906, but apparently possibly no one tried to see if they were edible or poisonous? I'd love to talk with the guy who originally collected them and ask him some questions, unfortunate that that's obviously impossible now.

It's also extremely interesting that it isn't even native to the americas, yet now is so widely distributed across the US. I didn't even know that it originally came from cuba, but that makes sense with the name and all. It'd be interesting to know if it is native to china or somewhere in asia originally if any of the people who live in its native area have any traditional knowledge about it, or how far back that knowledge goes, etc. if there is any.

If you could hybridize it, it's possible that you'd still be able to grow on BRF jars and coir and stuff like that. It'd be interesting to find out. Might result in several entirely new options that are easy to grow.

Great find :thumbup:


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: nooneman]
    #26649694 - 05/05/20 04:02 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

inski said:
Alan, what do you think the chances of anastomosis and hybridisation occurring in dikaryons of these closely related species?




I wouldn't have any way to guess how likely that is.  I've heard it happens within the same species and also that it doesn't.




Quote:

nooneman said:
Fascinating! It's interesting that it was collected as early as 1906, but apparently possibly no one tried to see if they were edible or poisonous?




Appears as though he didn't try to eat them.

Quote:

It'd be interesting to know if it is native to china or somewhere in asia originally if any of the people who live in its native area have any traditional knowledge about it, or how far back that knowledge goes, etc. if there is any.




There's some old reports of psilocybin intoxications from Asia, but apparently they didn't like the effects because they called them poisonings.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26649723 - 05/05/20 04:30 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It seems most people around in Asia believe they're poisonous. I've had locals trying to stop me from picking them on numerous occasitions and others thinking I'm downright insane shaking their heads. In India, or at least in parts of India, there's a culture around it. In Thailand and Laos it might have been introdused by westerners. Not sure about Indonesia. But in China, Japan and Korea there must've been some sort of culture around it? Thinking about the names, like clown mushroom, laughing mushroom, shadow numbness mushroom etc.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26651273 - 05/05/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They are poisonous if you aren't expecting the effects.  Not all poisons kill, anything that causes effects you don't like can be considered toxic using some definitions.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26652438 - 05/06/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)





Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

donjonson420 said:
I noticed recently you were trying to source high quality Ovoid prints from the Ovoid forums.  Are you planning to attempt this potential hybridization?





No, but someone should.  If mating single spore isolates doesn't work, snake venom likely would.  People have recently been having a lot of success mating different Panaeolus species with venom.





Allen, could you please link the sources for this information about the panoleous breeding? I am very much into the whole world of serial dilution and single spore mating.

Thanks for all the wonderful and exciting work you do and all the groundbreaking pictures and bushwhacking genetic work!!! Really dig all that!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: SannyTIES]
    #26656474 - 05/08/20 01:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Nothing published yet, perhaps the person doing it will write a tek.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26656533 - 05/08/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
This is the only non-native Psilocybe species found in the Americas




where are cyans, azzies, libs, baeos, ovoids, stunzii native to?


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26656544 - 05/08/20 03:09 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:whacker:
This is awesome, thank you for sharing!
Very cool to learn how mushrooms move around the earth and that there were mushroom nerds like Earle 100 years ago too.


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26656565 - 05/08/20 03:39 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
This is the only non-native Psilocybe species found in the Americas




where are cyans, azzies, libs, baeos, ovoids, stunzii native to?




He said NON native, meaning all the rest of those are native.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: OOISI]
    #26656578 - 05/08/20 03:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

doubt it


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26657662 - 05/08/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

How do we know Psilocybe Cubensis is not native to Cuba? Based on genetic evidence? If this type specimen was described in 1906 do we have some idea of when it arrived? Is it inferred because of the introduction of cattle at some point?


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26657713 - 05/08/20 03:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

there are no large herbivores native to cuba


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26657770 - 05/08/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed. Looking around it appears the Spanish brought cattle to Cuba around the 1500s, so we can assume they brought the Cubes too.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #26657778 - 05/08/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

possibly. could have been later though, maybe after the colonization of the Philippines and more imports from tropical/subtropical pacific asian islands or something

liberty caps are probably from europe or maybe some mediteranean area. not sure about fimetaria, cyans, azzies, baeos, silvatica, ovoids and such. we know nothing


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658526 - 05/08/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
This is the only non-native Psilocybe species found in the Americas




where are cyans, azzies, libs, baeos, ovoids, stunzii native to?





Psilocybe cyanescens are native to America and Europe, semilanceata to northern hemisphere, baeocystis, ovoideocystidiata and stuntzii are native to America.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658557 - 05/08/20 09:20 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

As it seems cubensis are native to Asia, the Philippines could be a possibility. The English had India and Malaysia long before that, though. Could come from there. Fuck knows.
Azurescens is American I believe, it's only recently been found outside the US. Silvatica is only found in America. Liberty caps on the other hand could very well be native to Eurasia, I suppose. Guess we'll never find out.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658589 - 05/08/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i don't know where liberty caps would have native habitat in the americas pre-european contact, the only native sheep im aware of are in high mountains. not many coastal pastures before they logged dredged and diked for cows. what about fimicola? where are cyans native to? possibly the extremely unique ecosystems in san fransisco bay before it was destroyed?


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658640 - 05/08/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Liberty caps aren't dependent on sheep. I mostly find them in cow pastures. In America there used to be millions of bisons around. But it is possible it came from Europe as well, I don't know.
Panaeolus fimicola, everywhere I suppose. Like cinctulus. Psilocybe fimetaria, don't know, could be introduced, could be native. I rarely find them. Panaeolus cyanescens are from Asia.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658653 - 05/08/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

there weren't many coastal pastures with large herbivores in suitable climates for liberty caps or those other less common pasture psilocybe before europeans arrived, the habitats we find them in usa are all man made coastal pastures with exotic farm stock


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658677 - 05/08/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Searh "great bison belt". Psilocybe semilanceata can also grow quite far from the sea. Another fact is, even though it thrives in habitats where cattle are grazing, it isn't dependent on them, like cubensis. But wether it was imported from Europe or is native is hard to say. I think both are possible.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658697 - 05/08/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

nobody find libs in the great bison belt or near bison unless they're raised on coastal ranches. the habitats don't overlap

same with the other pasture loving psilocybe the habitats are all man made


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658754 - 05/08/20 11:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

They overlap indeed. Have you seen the map of the great bison belt? It goes from coast to coast. Liberty caps are also recorded from Minnesota, which is probably as far from the coast as you can get in the US. And on both coasts (both within aforementioned belt), but not between, something I find odd. That may suggest it is introduced. Again, libs aren't dependent on cattle, but they certainly thrive on grazing land. And with 60.000.000 bison around back in the day, I think there should be way more liberty caps around.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658762 - 05/08/20 11:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

i did look at the map. they don't overlap at all on the west coast, maybe just barely in a few places on the east coast. check out mushroom observer where are you seeing a find from minn?


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658771 - 05/08/20 11:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

nvm. found it. libs don't grow inland in the americas. there is no habitat. there are no buffalo along the coasts.
https://mushroomobserver.org/48164?q=1CU5J

Quote:


Doubting this is a real observation
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller) 2017-09-28 14:51:45 PDT (-0700)
This observation is far outside its normal range, and is the only observation that dave (smokeymcblunt420) has made. The image is from flickr, and the 750 pixel size is more consistent with an image downloaded from the web than one taken with a Nikon d3000.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26658787 - 05/08/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Alan Rockefeller

you are being paged. we've got questions


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658799 - 05/08/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That makes sense.
The buffaloes used to go to the coasts. But whatever. Don't think it has any relevance.
I do find it strange that there is such distance between populations. It does indeed suggest that it is introduced.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26658875 - 05/09/20 12:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26658951 - 05/09/20 01:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
This is the only non-native Psilocybe species found in the Americas




where are cyans, azzies, libs, baeos, ovoids, stunzii native to?




The places they were described from.

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
How do we know Psilocybe Cubensis is not native to Cuba? Based on genetic evidence? If this type specimen was described in 1906 do we have some idea of when it arrived? Is it inferred because of the introduction of cattle at some point?




It grows on the manure of animals that weren't in Cuba before Europeans came, and it's closest phylogenetic relative is found in China.

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Psilocybe cyanescens are native to America and Europe




P. cyanescens are likely introduced to Europe, they were first found in Kew Gardens, where they bring plants from all over the world.

Quote:

Psilosadhu said:
Silvatica is only found in America. Liberty caps on the other hand could very well be native to Eurasia, I suppose. Guess we'll never find out.




We will because genetic diversity can be seen with full genome sequencing.  If the European populations are more diverse than the North American populations, it has been introduced from there.

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
where are cyans native to? possibly the extremely unique ecosystems in san fransisco bay before it was destroyed?




Probably not native to the bay area because it is never found in the wild there.  In northern Oregon and Washington it is found in the wild, so that's probably where it evolved.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #26659736 - 05/09/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

you crack me up dude
Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

MadMuncher Never said:
Psilocybe cyanescens are native to America and Europe






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Edited by MadMuncher (05/09/20 10:51 AM)


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: MadMuncher]
    #26659862 - 05/09/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Alan for sharing this information,  I have been fascinated with this for decades and always believed that they originated in Asia not Cuba as the name suggests.


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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Doc9151]
    #26660630 - 05/09/20 06:45 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I read somewhere that there were some microscopic differences between the American and European collections of p. cyanescens, something with the cheilocystidia if I remember correctly, that suggested that European cyanescens maybe wasn't introduced from America after all. But this was years ago.
As for silvatica in Europe, aren't they called medullosa now? Or are these two species coexisting in Europe somewhere?


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26661837 - 05/10/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I read something like that as well but I don't know if it has been verified.


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Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe cubensis type collection [Re: Psilosadhu]
    #26663523 - 05/10/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosadhu said:
I read somewhere that there were some microscopic differences between the American and European collections of p. cyanescens, something with the cheilocystidia if I remember correctly, that suggested that European cyanescens maybe wasn't introduced from America after all. But this was years ago.




That turned out to be incorrect.


Quote:

As for silvatica in Europe, aren't they called medullosa now? Or are these two species coexisting in Europe somewhere?




Yes and no.


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