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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..."
#26642522 - 05/02/20 12:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."
Spock is confusing ethical consistency with mathematical logic.
Ethics are not mathematics, and the logic which governs the premises and conclusions of the two isn’t necessarily interchangeable.
Philosophical logic, or what is better termed “rational consistency”, or “reason”, does not assert mathematical logic as axiomatic.
This is because mathematics is wholly abstract, where philosophy is meta, incorporating both the abstract and the concrete.
Philosophy, of which ethics is a major category, concerns the nature of existence, itself, not merely the abstract measurement and categorization of it.
Discuss.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26642602 - 05/02/20 01:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok but what are the terms that verify ethical consistency. This is what bothers me. I assume it’s relevant.
Rational consistency ultimately or ideally has to be social consistency. And so I wonder.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26642719 - 05/02/20 03:11 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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may be Spock doesn't see his own needs as concrete.
do concrete needs have more weight than abstract ones?
"I have been - and always shall be - your friend." --my hero Mr. Spock
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26642722 - 05/02/20 03:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Ok but what are the terms that verify ethical consistency. This is what bothers me. I assume it’s relevant.
Rational consistency ultimately or ideally has to be social consistency. And so I wonder.
I want to know exactly where you're coming from here before I dive in; do you mind expanding your view a tad more? I don't want to go off on something irrelevant to what you're trying to discuss! I'm caffeinated, it will happen lol.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26643186 - 05/02/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Then McCoy remembered Spock, standing stiffly, and saying in a thin, precise voice, “Nothing can excuse the crime of which I am guilty, I intend to offer no defense. I must…surrender myself to the authorities.”
Always impeccable, each situation faced freshly, I have no complaints about the Vulcan.
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26643687 - 05/02/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
Yellow Pants said: Ok but what are the terms that verify ethical consistency. This is what bothers me. I assume it’s relevant.
Rational consistency ultimately or ideally has to be social consistency. And so I wonder.
I want to know exactly where you're coming from here before I dive in; do you mind expanding your view a tad more? I don't want to go off on something irrelevant to what you're trying to discuss! I'm caffeinated, it will happen lol.
Funny you mention caffeine as I was chugging coffee like water yesterday. Downshifting to tea so don’t take me too seriously.
Basically it makes sense that mathematics are purely abstract and not rooted at all in the real world unlike ethics and rational consistency and so Spock has it wrong. I had a thread at one point about morality and how in the absence of it there is a relativism where anything goes and Spock could be right etc.
But I wonder about the essence of ethics and whether or not it’s a personal and or social process. At least how does it apply and look in the real world as it says it assesses what mathematics doesn’t. I assume ethics are effectively just and there are some philosophers like the great Stefan Molyneux that claim to empirically prove it. I guess idk what I’m trying to say exactly but how does this move forward beyond the initial agreement that Spock had it wrong..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26643832 - 05/02/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Spock struggled with everything and I see nothing wrong about that. Ideal form and real form are in harmony.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: redgreenvines]
#26644181 - 05/02/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I want to know how two disparate species from light years apart, and with totally distinct blood chemistry, interbred.
This is not logical.

"Live long and boink."
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#26644183 - 05/02/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I want to know how two disparate species from light years apart, and with totally distinct blood chemistry, interbred.
This is not logical.

"Live long and boink."
Get past nature’s zygotic barriers, and much is possible my son.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26644190 - 05/02/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you were raised on a farm?
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#26644206 - 05/02/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I was conceived by 2 furries and later went on to major in bio, with a bent towards furries
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26644263 - 05/02/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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We don't take kindly to furriners 'round these here parts!
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#26644314 - 05/02/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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To extinction with the furries
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#26644492 - 05/02/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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he looked Vulcan enough to be one even if his parents were imaginary creatures made from Rodenberry juice
I hoped to be him when I grew up - but that never happened
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Hans Wermhat
Human


Registered: 06/10/19
Posts: 167
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: redgreenvines]
#26646830 - 05/03/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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But being that mathematics is the purest and most fundamental study of the laws which govern the universe, any school of rational consistency must, by necessity, be entirely consistent with the laws of mathematics. If you took the needs of the many, they almost certainly would weigh more on a scale than the needs of the few unless the few were really beautiful people or celebrities.
-------------------- Thank you for taking the time to read this message. Have a wonderful day.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Hans Wermhat]
#26646835 - 05/03/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Today I learned, I weigh 4billionths times less than Donald a Trump in value .
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26646837 - 05/03/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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fascinating
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,584
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: Hans Wermhat] 1
#26646861 - 05/03/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see mathematics as a human language from which to express observations of the Universe through. Mathematics don't give rise to reality so much as you can mirror reality through mathematical expression. As any language, it has limits in how it can express observations and truths about the Universe, and for that reason I don't believe consistency is necessary between different languages of expression for any particular school of thought in order to establish legitimacy of one thought over another, it's only important to do so insofar as communication.
Though it might be wise to develop ways that different languages and subsects of language can communicate between each other to come to common understanding, ultimately any language may go directions in which their development actually closes doors to translatability, or become too complex to translate succinctly when more can be said and understood with less. That is not to say math as a whole is one of these, but to rely on only it to explain and communicate ideas about the Universe closes as many doors as it opens.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: PatrickKn]
#26646957 - 05/03/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I admire mathematics for the symmetry and other relationships in various scale-able dimensions. alas, I fail to speak more than a degraded dialect of it, and hardly know anyone who is fluent, or remained fluent. it is not very social, and the applications of it are often protected secrets, which is even lonelier. it's like a new mathematics keeps being invented whenever someone learns it, and our technology is becoming a tower of babel - especially if school funding is choked.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
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Re: Spock is WRONG Regarding "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one..." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#26647679 - 05/04/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I want to know how two disparate species from light years apart, and with totally distinct blood chemistry, interbred.
This is not logical.

especially considering that, for the most part, only irrational people make good magicians.
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