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Offlinemorrowasted
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Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent * 1
    #26645670 - 05/03/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The following scenario is actually hypothetical, I'm not just saying that. I don't have any family members with dementia right, but it's not unlikely in the future, as my grandfather had Alzheimer's. I'm just curious what the shroomery thinks about this.


Imagine, if you will, a scenario in which you have power of attorney over an elderly family member with dementia and depression. The doctor prescribes various drugs to treat the cognitive decline, and they don't seem to do much. The family member has no idea what they are taking. Imagine one day such a family accidentally doses themselves with a microdose of LSD or mushrooms, and you note an improvement in energy levels, sociability, interest in pursuing activities that were enjoyed years ago, and verbal recall.

In such a situation, would you say it is unethical to intentionally continue microdosing said family member? Keep in mind that the person has legally agreed to put you in charge of making medical decisions for them, and that a huge number of people out there with moderate or severe dementia are not capable of understanding or recalling information about their medications.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645701 - 05/03/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

That would be a rough place to be in. If it was ME and if it was someone I loved deeply and IF it showed improvement when nothing else worked then my answer would be.....FUCK YES.


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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645702 - 05/03/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You know, this scenario definitely presents an ethical dilemma.  If micro-dosing did produce positive results in a family member suffering from dementia, the first inclination would be to continue micro-dosing them.  It's not as if they are experiencing any of the psychoactive effects of the drug, presumably.  However, one must also ask why it is they were given the power of attorney over someone with dementia.  Would it be the right thing not to inform that family member that they have been micro-dosed in the event they regain some semblance of their former self while under the influence of the LSD, if they were cognizant of the situation, whereas they were not previously?  Moreover, there is the question of legality.  That is not say such a protocol of micro-dosing LSD would not be more effective in terms of treatment than legally prescribed pharmaceuticals, but it certainly calls into question the ethics of the person administering an illegal drug to a person suffering from dementia.  It's not that I personally feel drugs should be illegal, but would the person suffering from dementia, if they were in their right mind, make that choice for themselves to ingest a scheduled drug if they thought it would benefit them? 


This is a really difficult question to answer.  I personally think the answer is dependent upon individual circumstances.  I cannot say that I would personally dose someone without their consent.  By consent, I mean the consent of the person while they are in their right mind.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: Asclepius] * 1
    #26645713 - 05/03/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I'm selfish as fuck when it comes to people I love so I would do it in a heartbeat fuck ethics so I'm probably not a good person to answer this type of question...


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: spirit_shadow] * 1
    #26645723 - 05/03/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

If you're a utilitarian, the argument could be made that not dosing them is the unethical thing to do.

In any case, I find myself thinking it would not be unethical even from a "Golden Rule" standpoint. If I had dementia and someone reasonably believed that giving me an illegal drug rather than a legal drug would improve my quality of life (and theirs, frankly), I would want them to do it, even if I were incapable of understanding.

Personally.


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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26645726 - 05/03/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Yeah I'm selfish as fuck when it comes to people I love so I would do it in a heartbeat fuck ethics so I'm probably not a good person to answer this type of question...





You know, I am selfish as well when  it comes to the people I love, and that's what makes answering this question difficult.  If it were someone else's family member, I would ask them if they are certain this is what their family member would want if they were in their right frame of mind -- to be dosed.  This is definitely a tough one!


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: Asclepius] * 1
    #26645732 - 05/03/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with both of you. I would want to be dosed if I had dementia as well :shrug:


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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645740 - 05/03/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
If I had dementia and someone reasonably believed that giving me an illegal drug rather than a legal drug would improve my quality of life (and theirs, frankly), I would want them to do it, even if I were incapable of understanding.

Personally.




But this scenario you are describing involves your personal choice to be dosed.  Even if it was not a decision you made during your cognitive decline, you said it yourself: "I would want them to do it." 


The question is: "Would everyone in this type of situation want them to do it?"  That's the thing I am struggling most with and also the reason I can not provide a definitive answer.


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OfflineO_Dweeds
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645743 - 05/03/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I won't comment on the hypothetical scenario, however I would never put LSD (synthetic) and mushrooms (completely organic) in the same boat.

  Synthetics have a true edge to them. There's a time and place for everything, but if I have the choice between LSD & mushrooms the choice is mushrooms every single time. I ALWAYS feel great afterward, usually for days. Like my pineal gland has been recharged to the state of my youth. "I feel like a schoolboy again"


Where as with LSD I feel unnaturally FRIED the fuck out for the next 24 hours after all the fun is over. Both still very fun!


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Edited by O_Dweeds (05/03/20 12:03 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #26645760 - 05/03/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

In that scenario it does sound justifiable. Though without the accidental dosing, you don't have the foreknowledge that they will respond positively.

My experience with microdosing is pretty limited but it didn't really seem to me like there was potential for anything resembling a true bad trip. Depends how micro the dose though I guess.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645765 - 05/03/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I get where you are coming from and have often pondered the exact thing.  eye of the beholder and all that  .
:popcorn:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645797 - 05/03/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm, a curious situation.....i dont like lieing to people but i do like helping them.....I guess u can say the End justifies the Mean and it would be "Ok" ethically to microdose your family member with psychs. :shrug:

I would try disclose the info at some point to them thou.....


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26645810 - 05/03/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Or should the means reflect the end?


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26645851 - 05/03/20 12:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I would inform them first. But depending on how out of it they were they may or may not even comprehend it......I would still do it anyway PROVIDED it actually worked as well as you stated.


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OfflineKmacmo
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: spirit_shadow] * 2
    #26645926 - 05/03/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It's a hard one, think the person knows what the drugs they get from the doctors are? Probally not. That's why they left you in charge.
Its like looking after a child, you as the carer have been chosen because your responsible or whatever right you know what's best even if the kid doesn't want to eat his greens or brush his teeth or do homework.
You tell that brat what's happening you know best.

After time you realise the brocoli, homework and teeth brushing have paid off look at that healthy young man.
If the microdosing is helping why stop, the legal drugs you have to take do much more harm than low doses of shrooms/lsd could ever do.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: morrowasted]
    #26645948 - 05/03/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Its like the Government and Area 51 S4. They have to keep the Big Secrets there a secret because it would shock the public if they knew what was really going on. Sometimes you have to hide the Truth from a person as they will probably not know how to deal with the information.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: Kmacmo] * 1
    #26645958 - 05/03/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the legal drugs you have to take do much more harm than low doses of shrooms/lsd could ever do.




For dementia all they really give are donepezil and memantine and they don't do a whole lot. Donepezil's common side effects: 
Diarrhea
loss of appetite
muscle cramps
nausea
trouble in sleeping
unusual tiredness or weakness
vomiting


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InvisibleAsclepius
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26645966 - 05/03/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I wish I could think like that.  You know something, I used to when I was younger.  Now I think of almost everything as nuanced and it drives bonkers -- it's like chronic cognitive dissonance.  I guess I just don't have the balls I once did.   

However, I think I probably would dose my family member if I knew for certain it would help, even in the event I might face some legal ramifications.  I know I would want to be dosed if I had dementia.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: Asclepius] * 1
    #26645977 - 05/03/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Just imagine an old person who is VERY closed minded about psychedelics. You cant simply say "Hey, would you like to take some Psychedelic drugs to help your condition?". Its sadly not that simply. But perhaps by slipping them safe amounts of the drug and drop some hits (Ooops Grandpa, I left my "LSD My Problem Child" book at your house, my bad).

Its not a good situation at all, like what if they start freaking out from a microdose? They wont know what the hell is going on....might cause panic.


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Re: Hypothetical scenario about dosing people without informed consent [Re: Asclepius] * 1
    #26645988 - 05/03/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

A genuine microdose of mushrooms or LSD does not produce intense symptoms and no bad trips.

Memantine. Doctors are pilling up people with dementia with active lewvel of dissociatives -- so why not subliminal levels of mushrooms or LSD?

Microdoses of psychedelics are a psychoactive medication jus6t like any other, unlike a fullblown trip, its suitable for outpatients.


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