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OfflineWeener
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Cokoritos]
    #27702437 - 03/20/22 01:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

If Psilocin breaks down at 140F, then shouldn't we be drying at 135F to try and preserve as much of that as possible? Fresh cubes are like 45% Psilocin.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Weener]
    #27703585 - 03/21/22 01:39 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Psilocin doesn't break down at 140F. :thataintright:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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Offlinetom613931
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Cokoritos]
    #27703905 - 03/21/22 06:28 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Great post, thanks.


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OfflinePrimary_yellow
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: tom613931]
    #27704289 - 03/22/22 03:32 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

So am I getting this straight? Drying shrooms in a dehydrator destroys something like HALF their potency?

I have had 40g fresh and 4g dried (at 70ºC) of the same flush and not noticed any difference... what am I missing?


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Primary_yellow]
    #27704291 - 03/22/22 03:39 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Primary_yellow said:
So am I getting this straight? Drying shrooms in a dehydrator destroys something like HALF their potency?

I have had 40g fresh and 4g dried (at 70ºC) of the same flush and not noticed any difference... what am I missing?




Yes, that's not true.


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OfflinePrimary_yellow
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27704294 - 03/22/22 03:51 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

No wonder everyone gets confused.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27704569 - 03/22/22 12:02 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
Quote:

Primary_yellow said:
So am I getting this straight? Drying shrooms in a dehydrator destroys something like HALF their potency?

I have had 40g fresh and 4g dried (at 70ºC) of the same flush and not noticed any difference... what am I missing?




Yes, that's not true.




:whathesaid:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


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OfflinePrimary_yellow
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Cokoritos]
    #27705183 - 03/22/22 11:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cokoritos said:

However, the story is different for psilocin, at least when it comes to drying. This has to do with oxidation of the unstable psilocin, not with the temperature. I found this HERE.

Quote:

… drying at an elevated temperature (60°C) leads to decomposition of 90% of psilocin








What I was referring to was this bit of OP's first post.

I couldn't find the specific bit of the linked document that relates to drying temps, but I'm not a chemist so if anyone can straighten me out on this I'd be very interested to know what the deal is.


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OfflineMe.me.Me.Me
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27706247 - 03/23/22 08:39 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

So have you hear of, or has anyone heard of tossing in

freshly dried mushies into a "commercial" stone grinder? I've got one

that cost 700$ and what it does is micronize and dissolve whatever it

micronizes into fat, in my case i would put in mct oil.

~~~~~~~~~

I also dont know the most gentile way of drying them, although i would think the quickest and lowest temp would be the best.

imo, the quicker and more unharmed i could get them in the stone grinder and stored in the oil, the better.

~~~~~~~~

I've done similar method with raw cannabis and kratom and kanna and all of which had a sort of leveled up potency to them.. someone els has to be doing this.

I'll end up doing it here shortly and hopefully can spread the knowledge because stone ground, micronized psilocybin\Psilocin stored in what may be an ideal delivery method(mct oil) might just make the trip way stronger, but also way smoother. I'm excited to try.

~~~~~~~~

Z


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OfflineWeener
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Primary_yellow]
    #27710051 - 03/27/22 12:48 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Primary_yellow said:
Quote:

Cokoritos said:

However, the story is different for psilocin, at least when it comes to drying. This has to do with oxidation of the unstable psilocin, not with the temperature. I found this HERE.

Quote:

… drying at an elevated temperature (60°C) leads to decomposition of 90% of psilocin








What I was referring to was this bit of OP's first post.

I couldn't find the specific bit of the linked document that relates to drying temps, but I'm not a chemist so if anyone can straighten me out on this I'd be very interested to know what the deal is.




This is also what I was referring to. I've since started to dry at 131F. It just takes a little longer. Though I haven't been able to test if there is noticeable potency difference yet.


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OfflinePhDCube
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: DJ Ed]
    #27711162 - 03/28/22 02:22 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
Props, OP, a worthy idea. As you say you hunt around for teks though you’re never 100% it is still latest knowledge.

Have to make a correction to your thread: the citric acid doesn’t convert psilocybin to psilocin. It does something called dephosphorilisation (check my spelling!), which is usually done by the liver. What it does is make the psychoactives more bio available. If the citric acid ratio is correct, you can effectively double the potency of your particular dose.

There are many forms of storage, which mainly fall into the following: fresh or dried. And fresh will always provide a nicer experience, because you have lost less of the psilocin. So how do you store fresh for any length of time: you make tea from the fresh mushrooms and freeze the tea. Stores indefinitely, and if thawed and drunk correctly still provides that “fresh experience”.

I’m currently trying my first alcohol extraction, in order to save a batch of particularly weak mushrooms. Yes I agree it is a hassle, and it is slow, but it is easy: I’ve broken the cracker dry mushrooms into 40% vodka in a sealed kilner jar which I shake daily for six weeks. I will then strain into another jar; boil up the leftover mushroom in water then add that to the alcohol mixture. Store in dropper bottles (1ml drop will equal roughly 1g dried material). And apparently an alcohol extraction kicks in within ten minutes, and if the dose is too low, you can redoes in ten minutes and get an instant boost.

With my mushroom ice cubes, I like to make a pina colada smoothie:-

60ml white rum
60ml coconut cream
120ml pineapple juice
Blend with mushroom ice cubes :dancer:

Goes down a treat and tastes really nice....





The conversion of Psilocibin to Psilocin it is  actually the dephosphorilation of the Psilocibin.
If the citric acid (so an acidic environment) promotes the dephosphorilaion of Psilocibin, then it means it promotes the conversion of Psilocibin to Psilocin.
So it's not wrong to say that Citric acid promote Psilocibin conversion.
It is correct that dephosphorilation also happens in our liver.

Psilocibin is not active in our brain, it's the Psilocin the is active compound.

So Citric acid do not make your dry shrooms more bioavailable, but it makes the metabolization faster to act on the brain.

Instead, making Citric acid tè from fresh mushrooms avoid the loss of psilocin occurring in the drying process.


Edited by PhDCube (03/28/22 02:32 AM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PhDCube] * 1
    #27711462 - 03/28/22 11:56 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Possibly any acid will work.  I'm gonna test that with an equivalent pH for vinegar (acetic acid) if I can stomach it.  I've tested the pH of the finished citric acid tea made this way and it was right around 4.  Just need to match that with vinegar (pH of 2-3) and it'll be a straight-up comparison. 

Probably won't be tripping again until May so I invite anybody else to try this who wants to. :snoopyes:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (03/28/22 12:05 PM)


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OfflinePhDCube
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Registered: 01/26/22
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27711495 - 03/28/22 12:22 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Possibly any acid will work.  I'm gonna test that with an equivalent pH for vinegar (acetic acid) if I can stomach it.  I've tested the pH of the finished citric acid tea made this way and it was right around 4.  Just need to match that with vinegar (pH of 2-3) and it'll be a straight-up comparison. 

Probably won't be tripping again until May so I invite anybody else to try this who wants to. :snoopyes:





Yes, possibly any acid works, but is not worth to test the acetic acid (especially if concentrated) since it's a punch in the face to swallow.

Furthermore, there's no proof that an acidic environment promotes dephosphorilation of the Psilocibin, usually dephosphorilation is a enzymatic reaction. Conversion on Psilocibin to Psilocin happens mostly by the enzymes in slow and room temperature drying process.

What is sure is that citric acid is a antioxidant, whish prevent oxidation of other molecules, which strongly contribute to stop oxidation of psilocin in a fresh mushroom tè.


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PhDCube]
    #27711525 - 03/28/22 12:49 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Furthermore, there's no proof that an acidic environment promotes dephosphorilation of the Psilocibin, usually dephosphorilation is a enzymatic reaction.




"Psilocybin is completely dephosphorytated to psilocin by heating the acid extract."
An Aqueous-Organic Extraction Method for the Isolation and Identification of Psilocin from Hallucinogenic Mushrooms

"the  heating  of  the  acid  extract  in  method  1  led  to  the  dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin"

" It  has  been  reported  that  enzymes  of  the  phosphatase type  can  be  extracted  with  aqueous  acetic  acid  in  contrast  to organic  solvents  (36),  thus  facilitating  the  dephosphorylation process"
The determination of psilocin and psilocybin in hallucinogenic mushrooms by HPLC utilizing a dual reagent acidic potassium permanganate and tris(2,2'-bipyridyl)ruthenium(II) chemiluminescence detection system

"Apparently, others have also found that a dilute acetic acid solution is an excellent solvent for both psilocin and psilocybin. Not only does the solution completely extract both tryptamines but the solution extracts other interfering substances to a lesser degree. Casale also notes that if one heats the extraction solution of dilute acetic acid to 70 degrees centigrade for ten minutes, then the psilocybin is completely converted by dephosphorylation to psilocin.(5)
I have found on my own that heating the acetic acid solution eliminated whatever bluing reaction was occurring in the enzyme denaturing environment of the low pH extraction solu- tion. That psilocybin is converted to psilocin is a plus, too."
The Mushroom Entheogen The Measure of the Mushroom C.B. Gold


--------------------
👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.


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OfflinePhDCube
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Icyurmt]
    #27711532 - 03/28/22 12:54 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icyurmt said:
Quote:

Furthermore, there's no proof that an acidic environment promotes dephosphorilation of the Psilocibin, usually dephosphorilation is a enzymatic reaction.




"Psilocybin is completely dephosphorytated to psilocin by heating the acid extract."
An Aqueous-Organic Extraction Method for the Isolation and Identification of Psilocin from Hallucinogenic Mushrooms

"the  heating  of  the  acid  extract  in  method  1  led  to  the  dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin"

" It  has  been  reported  that  enzymes  of  the  phosphatase type  can  be  extracted  with  aqueous  acetic  acid  in  contrast  to organic  solvents  (36),  thus  facilitating  the  dephosphorylation process"
The determination of psilocin and psilocybin in hallucinogenic mushrooms by HPLC utilizing a dual reagent acidic potassium permanganate and tris(2,2'-bipyridyl)ruthenium(II) chemiluminescence detection system

"Apparently, others have also found that a dilute acetic acid solution is an excellent solvent for both psilocin and psilocybin. Not only does the solution completely extract both tryptamines but the solution extracts other interfering substances to a lesser degree. Casale also notes that if one heats the extraction solution of dilute acetic acid to 70 degrees centigrade for ten minutes, then the psilocybin is completely converted by dephosphorylation to psilocin.(5)
I have found on my own that heating the acetic acid solution eliminated whatever bluing reaction was occurring in the enzyme denaturing environment of the low pH extraction solu- tion. That psilocybin is converted to psilocin is a plus, too."
The Mushroom Entheogen The Measure of the Mushroom C.B. Gold





Great, then I'll shut up! :smile:


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PhDCube]
    #27712036 - 03/28/22 08:00 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PhDCube said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Possibly any acid will work.  I'm gonna test that with an equivalent pH for vinegar (acetic acid) if I can stomach it.  I've tested the pH of the finished citric acid tea made this way and it was right around 4.  Just need to match that with vinegar (pH of 2-3) and it'll be a straight-up comparison. 

Probably won't be tripping again until May so I invite anybody else to try this who wants to. :snoopyes:





Yes, possibly any acid works, but is not worth to test the acetic acid (especially if concentrated) since it's a punch in the face to swallow.

Furthermore, there's no proof that an acidic environment promotes dephosphorilation of the Psilocibin, usually dephosphorilation is a enzymatic reaction. Conversion on Psilocibin to Psilocin happens mostly by the enzymes in slow and room temperature drying process.

What is sure is that citric acid is a antioxidant, whish prevent oxidation of other molecules, which strongly contribute to stop oxidation of psilocin in a fresh mushroom tè.





Well actually what I'll first aim for is to demonstrate the "bleaching" reaction seen in preparing fresh shrooms with only 2% (by weight) citric acid added in a trace of starter water.  If you leave the acid out the pressed out fruits retain quite a lot of color and the tea remains blue-hued.  With the acid the pressed fruits are almost colorless. and the tea loses that blue color. 

If vinegar at pH4 concentration has the same effect on some first flush Nat fruits I have in the fridge I'll be interested to try it further.  If not then not - that blue color appearing is SFAIK a clear indicator of oxidation of the actives, because the same tea made each way will show the acidic tea to pack more effect. :awesomenod:  That's what the tek is all about.

Even putting twice as much citric acid in makes the tea hard to chug, and experimentally there was no difference in any concentration above 2%.

Fun times ahead.  :ohsodevious:

Come to think of it I'll probably have to taste that experimental tea.  You know, a very small dose, just for science. :rollsafe:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (03/28/22 08:06 PM)


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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27712416 - 03/29/22 02:32 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

that blue color appearing is SFAIK a clear indicator of oxidation of the actives



No critique of your experiment, but I just wanted to add an interesting side note here as it's not mentioned in the OP and it relates to this general thread. Similar to the dephosphorylation process, the psilocin oxidation that causes the blueing is also occurring enzymatically via a laccase found in the mushrooms. That laccase enzyme both oxidizes the psilocin and subsequently links them together forming the oligomers that are responsible for the beautiful blue color. Psilocin oxidation occurring any other way without the formation of oligomers would still lose the potency but show no color reaction.
Equally as fascinating imho, is that apparently psilocin can be re-phosphorylated back into psilocybin by the same kinase enzymes found in the mushrooms that are responsible for the original phosphotransfer during psilocybins biosyntheses. 

Injury‐Triggered Blueing Reactions of Psilocybe “Magic” Mushrooms


--------------------
👁️ 🌊 why you are empty.

Hunt for the habitat not the mushroom.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Icyurmt]
    #27712865 - 03/29/22 12:45 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Noted.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Cokoritos] * 1
    #27713360 - 03/29/22 07:42 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

So i tried the vinegar tea primal, it works as advertised. 4g of shrooms with 2 cups of water, reduced until half a cup of water left, added a big splash of apple cider vinegar and reduced by half again. Strained and then down in one.

Very quick ramp up and strong experience.

Didn't taste great but didn't upset my tummy either, no gas or nausea at all which was nice.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: The definitive mushroom consuming and preserving summary [Re: Northerner]
    #27713395 - 03/29/22 08:18 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Good to know!  What color did it end up being?

Try using vinegar straight or diluted on the initial boil to replicate acid tek.  :havesomescience:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 


Edited by PrimalSoup (03/29/22 08:33 PM)


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