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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26641716 - 05/01/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You do have a point. We don't really have a choice in who we become or who we are born into. We just "are" one day at birth and that's our life.

My only advice to you Thanatos is keeping pondering the big questions. I like to think its helpful for ya.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26641909 - 05/01/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
I pretty much gave it to you in the wiki link. Also wouldn’t it be on you to prove why suffering is something to endure? I mean the anti Natalist argument seems logical.



The Wiki link doesn't really define suffering, only uses it to explain antinatalism. Suffering is a very charged word that can have multiple meanings as it has religious, philosophical and traditional meaning, and it's best to define it in conversations such as these so we all have a common understanding from which to speak.

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Humans are forced into this world against their will and into suffering untold. Happiness isn’t a guarantee but suffering is. It’s a raw deal from any sane person really.



Humans are not forced into the world as much as they are born of the world. Forced into implies that you were somewhere else prior to being pulled into the world you inhabit.

I understand that we didn't have a choice in existing. But 'consent' is contractual, it's legal. Consent is an agreement between parties which have the resources or ability to choose against an alternative. Clinging to the idea of consent or choice in a matter which you have no recourse to decide otherwise is a dead end.

I have nothing against the philosophy of not having children, or ending life on your own terms. These are consensual matters because you have the ability to choose an alternative if and when in the position to. However you were not in a position to choose to be born, and anyone's consent is meaningless on that matter entirely - choice never existed in the first place and wishing you were there to object is no different than trying to change anything in the past that was not in your control.

For what it's worth, you did not have a choice in the matter. I can agree with that. But the whole concept of willingness was never yours to make in the first place, it's a byproduct of human language and culture that one might think it should be as such in the first place, concepts which would not exist were you not alive to ponder them, and which other organisms likely don't consider because they lack the specific language intricacies (developed from our lifestyle over generations) that would help to conceptualize it.

In this way, the very idea that consent of the unborn should be a necessary prerequisite to life, is a fixture of a language structure developed from a bartering society where consent and choice is a necessary defense, but even in these societies there exists actions which are not subject to choice in the same way that birth is not, and in the same way that death by choice or action other than your own is not. One doesn't consent to rainfall, nor does one ever personally consent to an invading force killing you. The entire concept of consent and choice breaks down as soon as the ability to barter and deliberate is non-existent, these only exist when an individual has freedom to act by his/her own free will, and when two or more parties are on even footing because they have the ability to secure their interests.

You may choose not to have children, but you are violating their consent to have lived all the same. And that's fine, this is your choice and they don't have a dog in the fight to choose otherwise.


Edited by PatrickKn (05/01/20 06:19 PM)


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Offlinesabinastreasure
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26641996 - 05/01/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

wouldn’t it be on you to prove why suffering is something to endure?




There's proof in every sunrise and in every drop of dew. Suffering may be a reality, but happiness is a state of mind.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: sabinastreasure]
    #26642009 - 05/01/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sabinastreasure said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

wouldn’t it be on you to prove why suffering is something to endure?




There's proof in every sunrise and in every drop of dew. Suffering may be a reality, but happiness is a state of mind.




Not even close. There is no beauty in the world, it's merely a projection of our brains on reality.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Offlinesabinastreasure
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26642021 - 05/01/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

So then is suffering a construct of the mind as well?


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: sabinastreasure]
    #26642085 - 05/01/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sabinastreasure said:
So then is suffering a construct of the mind as well?




No.

But this isn't really relevant to the topic. Granted a human doesn't have consent to be born because they didn't exist prior to this and so consent doesn't apply. But you can't deny that having children is a selfish act, it's not done for the sake of the child but rather the parents.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Invisiblepur3bind
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26643082 - 05/02/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This is how I see it. Because life evolved toward such a confusing nature which is where we are now,
It would be stupid and selfish to nurture any more life into existence, based on the pain/suffering that would high tide us all into oblivion.
You know the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?
Well the origin of that proverb started as, "Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works."


--------------------
"There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)



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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26643249 - 05/02/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

He died.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26643269 - 05/02/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You really are ruthless about transmitting negative energy everywhere.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Offlinesabinastreasure
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: lowbrow] * 1
    #26643672 - 05/02/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Regardless of whether or not there is beauty there is something to live for. Your choice not to acknowledge it has no impact on my ability to fully experience it.
My privilege to share your worldview was taken from me when I developed a nerve condition in my neck and back that gives me constant pain. Endless nights I cursed God, myself, my doctors for not being able to ever stop it.
And then one day I started living again.
I stopped taking pain medications, I stopped externalizing my anger.

I'm glad to be alive. That I can grow mushrooms and skate city streets on hot summer nights is a miracle, and I won't take it for granted.


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26643791 - 05/02/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

sabinastreasure said:
So then is suffering a construct of the mind as well?




No.

But this isn't really relevant to the topic. Granted a human doesn't have consent to be born because they didn't exist prior to this and so consent doesn't apply. But you can't deny that having children is a selfish act, it's not done for the sake of the child but rather the parents.



What the fuck are you talking about? Many parents give everything they have to their kids. Their time, their patience, everything they can experience. Life is a gift, just because you like to pout that doesn't mean other people don't enjoy it. Not everyone is a whiny baby of an individual. Every moment of positivity or anything you've ever enjoyed is a product of that "selfishness" so really what you're trying to say is everything makes you sad and it's someone else's fault. It's not. It's your fault.


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OfflineTheEschatologist
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #26643827 - 05/02/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

Camus said the only question that really matters is why not to commit suicide. If more people were really forced to think this through they'd probably be able to go through life and all it's travails with a bit more peace of mind. Problem is it's not a comfortable exercise and most people need to be forced to go there, usually by unbearable circumstances or perhaps mental illness.

It's strange though, intense suffering can actually be the the catalyst for seeing the real value in life, as sabinastreasure pointed out. At least that's been my experience as well. Not that I would wish it on anyone mind you. Taking a heroic psilocybin dose now and then also helps.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: sabinastreasure]
    #26643908 - 05/02/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sabinastreasure said:
Regardless of whether or not there is beauty there is something to live for. Your choice not to acknowledge it has no impact on my ability to fully experience it.
My privilege to share your worldview was taken from me when I developed a nerve condition in my neck and back that gives me constant pain. Endless nights I cursed God, myself, my doctors for not being able to ever stop it.
And then one day I started living again.
I stopped taking pain medications, I stopped externalizing my anger.

I'm glad to be alive. That I can grow mushrooms and skate city streets on hot summer nights is a miracle, and I won't take it for granted.




Again this is a privileged view however. The majority of the people on the planet live in suffering and sometimes struggle their whole lives just to go on living to struggle even further.

I don't think people are understanding the argument posed by anti-natalism. You are arguing from the perspective of those who "made it", but lots more don't. The odds of someone living a happy life are slim compared to one rife with pain and suffering. It would not be "right" to bring a human into the world just because you made it thinking they might too. That's post hoc rationalization.

Desires and want and dreams are these chains that we have to satisfy and if we don't then we suffer. Boredom as well, sickness in old age, etc. Life seems like a raw deal from a logical point of view, it's pretty much just staving off the "break downs" because........why?

I can say that having been alive all this time there hasn't been anything that has happened in my life that would make me believe it would have been better than to never exist.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #26643909 - 05/02/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheEschatologist said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

Camus said the only question that really matters is why not to commit suicide. If more people were really forced to think this through they'd probably be able to go through life and all it's travails with a bit more peace of mind. Problem is it's not a comfortable exercise and most people need to be forced to go there, usually by unbearable circumstances or perhaps mental illness.

It's strange though, intense suffering can actually be the the catalyst for seeing the real value in life, as sabinastreasure pointed out. At least that's been my experience as well. Not that I would wish it on anyone mind you. Taking a heroic psilocybin dose now and then also helps.




:manofapproval:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #26643910 - 05/02/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheEschatologist said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

Camus said the only question that really matters is why not to commit suicide. If more people were really forced to think this through they'd probably be able to go through life and all it's travails with a bit more peace of mind. Problem is it's not a comfortable exercise and most people need to be forced to go there, usually by unbearable circumstances or perhaps mental illness.

It's strange though, intense suffering can actually be the the catalyst for seeing the real value in life, as sabinastreasure pointed out. At least that's been my experience as well. Not that I would wish it on anyone mind you. Taking a heroic psilocybin dose now and then also helps.




Camus kind of dodges nihilism the same way that many other existential philosophers do, they don't take it to the logical conclusion and try to back out. Intense suffering meaning something is the result of humans projecting meaning onto things that have none of it to make it more bearable. There really isn't any good reason to not commit suicide. If you do then you won't have to deal with anything that comes with living anymore.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26644002 - 05/02/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Considering we die naturally, suicide is usually a waste.  Not like living a few more years will make a difference if you die anyways, so might as well live them since it’s all we know of. 

Thanatos, your the type who is to smart for his own good.  There’s that, and there is being wise.  Wisdom has perspective, and you would do well to realize your own philosophical meanderings are not void of emotional baggage, and being so aren’t in earnest when attempting to  understand things as they actually are.  Rather yours is a spoiled perverted view, leading to much suffering.  Your not the first to say or feel or think like you do, in fact I see it pretty often.  Many in your boat eventually right the ship to some degree so as to no longer seem incompetent and malcontent  in the eyes of wisdom.  Those that don’t just wander in their own ignorance believing their myopic view is somehow valid through ever so subtle moves of self deception to keep believing the opposite of what’s true - and that’s the worst kind of bad. It’s really disappointing, to see others act as though they cannot be seen for what they are, it shows a great deal about the one putting on airs.  Sometimes realizing your being that guy can be enough motivation for the scales to drop from ones eyes.  You can do and be good while you live out your life - ever consider it?


The good, and noble take higher precedence than spoiled & cockeyed tomfoolery.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (05/02/20 03:51 PM)


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OfflineTheEschatologist
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26644041 - 05/02/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I can say that having been alive all this time there hasn't been anything that has happened in my life that would make me believe it would have been better than to never exist.




Hi Thanatos. I've seen a couple of your posts around the forums. Just going from what I've read, you seem like a fundamentally unhappy person. Of course I don't really know you beyond that, so forgive the presumption. I'm truly sorry if you've really only been able to experience your life as an exercise in unending suffering.

This may be a too-personal question but, as a nihilist, how do you rationalize not committing suicide given your point of view stated in this thread? I'm genuinely curious by the way, not just trying to set up an argument of some kind.


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26644076 - 05/02/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Life is limitless. Pleasure can keep intensifying forever. People think life is cruel because they don't see the infinity that consensus reality is cheating them out of. Life isn't making you suffer, banks and billionaires are, the masses of zombie bullshit believers who prop up the system are. Let's imagine what could be if people stopped committing violence and repressing themselves and others, if there were no such thing as a power hierarchy. Humanity would become pure divine light.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: Alyssa] * 1
    #26644205 - 05/02/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Life is limitless. Pleasure can keep intensifying forever. People think life is cruel because they don't see the infinity that consensus reality is cheating them out of. Life isn't making you suffer, banks and billionaires are, the masses of zombie bullshit believers who prop up the system are. Let's imagine what could be if people stopped committing violence and repressing themselves and others, if there were no such thing as a power hierarchy. Humanity would become pure divine light.



No they wouldn’t be. We weren’t that way before it all, we just recognize it now.

Also life isn’t limitless, every day we live by rules either by society or by life itself. Pleasure doesn’t intensify forever either, there is something called the hedonic treadmill. Consensus reality isn’t cheating anyone out of anything, you just don’t see the limits that were always there.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Better to never have been [Re: TheEschatologist]
    #26644207 - 05/02/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheEschatologist said:
Quote:

I can say that having been alive all this time there hasn't been anything that has happened in my life that would make me believe it would have been better than to never exist.




Hi Thanatos. I've seen a couple of your posts around the forums. Just going from what I've read, you seem like a fundamentally unhappy person. Of course I don't really know you beyond that, so forgive the presumption. I'm truly sorry if you've really only been able to experience your life as an exercise in unending suffering.

This may be a too-personal question but, as a nihilist, how do you rationalize not committing suicide given your point of view stated in this thread? I'm genuinely curious by the way, not just trying to set up an argument of some kind.



I’m mostly just waiting to die. Suicide sounds painful and it’s success rate is spotty.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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