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Offlineunnamed
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Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem.
    #26643276 - 05/02/20 09:19 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Hi.
I did my first two grows.
1) MS B+ agar cleaned, then agar wedges dropped to 4qts of oat grains, fully colonized in 12 days, spawned 1:3 to a pasteurized pure coir, 2.5" deep, uncased, in an unmodified tub (lid closed but not locked) at 75°F with 12/12h led lighting. Grain recovered in less than two days, every grain becomes a big fluffy ball of myc. Then process stalled. After two weeks I gave up and mixed substrate just to look whats going on inside of it. Found out that grains were covered in a healthy myc only on the top layer, absolutely no growth inside of a sub.

2) During these weeks MS on agar was somewhat "isolated" to produce a very good looking rhizo growth. Transferred to LC. Then LC to 6qt of pure white millet, explosive colonization to 100% in 5 days.

My theory about the first failed grow was about an excessive moisture that prevents gas exchange inside the sub, because it was really dense when I tried to mix it, so I lowered down water amount closer to the dry side of field capacity, added around 30% of vermiculite to make a sub more fluffy and around 5% of gypsum as PH buffer. Spawned with millet 1:2.
And now I have exactly the same result: seeds are pure white fluffy balls since first couple of days, but no signs of any attempts to colonize the sub for next two weeks. Mixed one tub to see whats inside, and again there is no growth beneath the surface.


- I read that sometimes coir is treated with fungicides but I got the impression that this is an urban legend.
- Moisture content was high on the first attempt and pretty low on the second, but results are exactly the same.
- Substrate «density» was high on the first attempt and low on the second, but results are exactly the same.
- Vermiculite and gypsum had no effect either.

So I just don't know what to do now. I have a couple of LC bottles still colonizing, plan to make 10qts of millet spawn again. Looks like this part of process I do right. But what is next step?

Is it feasible to try to grow without spawning to substrate? Like from pure millet? What is requirements for that?
Is it worth trying to make pure vermiculite/BRF substrate for millet spawn?

Edited by unnamed (05/02/20 09:52 AM)

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OfflineSockadin
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed]
    #26643288 - 05/02/20 09:28 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

I think in all cases your issue is with the amount of time your waiting. Full colonization of a quart in 12 days is pretty fast in my opinion.

Also are you mixing your tubs from the start or layering them?

I have has some jars take 4 weeks and some tubs take 5 weeks.

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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed]
    #26643300 - 05/02/20 09:34 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Are you packing your sub and spawn mixture down into the tub? It shouldn’t be compressed. 2 weeks is also not too too long to go in and tear a tub up because you haven’t seen pins yet. Keep trying but be more patient! Make sure you are getting your substrate to field capacity. Just a few drops should come out when you squeeze it. If it is too wet you can always add raw verm to soak up some water. You can fruit off your grains without spawning to bulk substrate but you will not get very good results.

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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #26643313 - 05/02/20 09:40 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Yeah I just ran a Playa Uvita culture that took 11 days just to see surface myc.  Ime slow growers tend to be more potent too.


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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Sockadin]
    #26643319 - 05/02/20 09:44 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

I think in all cases your issue is with the amount of time your waiting.


It is not a speed that bothers me, but overall dynamic. I'm perfectly ok with slow colonization if I still can track some progress every couple of days. But in my case there is a very fast recovery and initial growth, but then two weeks passed and I literally see no difference. I tried to make pics of sub surface and comparing them for tracking progress, and they are completely the same over two weeks.

Also, if I thoroughly shake my grain jars they start looking like there is no myc at all. But 24-48h later myc is fully recovered.
But when I mixed one of my two tubs (with no growth inside the sub, but good looking growth on the surface), it never recovered. So I think that myc on grains inside of the sub is completely dead after two weeks. I thought it was because of too low oxygen level inside the sub. But on the second grow sub was really fluffy and «airy».

Quote:

Also are you mixing your tubs from the start or layering them?


Yes, I mixed my sub and spawn as evenly as I can. Took me a couple of minutes. Also, I tried to level my first grow tubs very fine, but I think I could pack a sub too dense doing it, so on the second run I skip that thorough leveling.

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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed]
    #26643330 - 05/02/20 09:48 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

You could case the grains or top fruit the jars.

Sometimes it’s hard to see the myc especially if the subs mixed up.

Idk how long you’ve been growing but I’ve seen a few people get worried when the myc went into fruit mode and quit spreading too. The surfaces look alright in the pics maybe it was about to knot.


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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #26643452 - 05/02/20 11:02 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

PirateSwazey said: You can fruit off your grains without spawning to bulk substrate but you will not get very good results.



What do you mean by «not very good results»? I thought that the primary function of a substrate is to hold a right amount of water and add some nuts. Can I substitute nuts by adding BRF/bran? Can I substitute sub's water storage ability by misting more often?

It looks like fungicide treated coir is a myth, but I have only one variety of coir available, so I can't test it. And I suspect that fungicide or not but this coir is somehow related to my failure. So I want to try other substrate recipes. Maybe I'll try a horse manure sub.

But now my spawn is the only one thing that I'm sure about, so I want to minimize a possibility of failure.

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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: A.k.a]
    #26643471 - 05/02/20 11:13 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
You could case the grains or top fruit the jars.

Sometimes it’s hard to see the myc especially if the subs mixed up.

Idk how long you’ve been growing but I’ve seen a few people get worried when the myc went into fruit mode and quit spreading too. The surfaces look alright in the pics maybe it was about to knot.



Before mixing the sub I tried to carefully cut out a square piece of it and lift it up to see whats going on beneath the surface. I expected to see a myc colonizing sub like it does with grains, but there were clean grains without any signs of recovery. Clean grains looking exactly the same as right after spawn. Apparently only the surface looks alright, but everything below the surface is dead :frown:

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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed] * 1
    #26643540 - 05/02/20 11:51 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Idk man I’ve broken subs and cut moldy chunks out and the inside of a colonized tub of coir doesn’t really look different.

It’s definitely not going to look anything like a grain jar. Ime it’s normal to have grains from inside the coir look uncolonized too.

I’d bet it was starting to fruit, the timing is right on schedule at 2 weeks.


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OfflineAmino
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed]
    #26643568 - 05/02/20 12:11 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

If patience wasn't the issue...
Your substrate does look a bit compacted, but I've spawned to straight horse poo many times, which is no doubt more dense than coir, and the mycelium had no problems tearing through it. How fine is your coir? I've seen it almost powdered before in reptile bedding etc..
Gas exchange/FAE is my next point. You say the tub is unmodified, do you open it daily or provide any form of gas exchange other than not sealing the lid? That may be at least part of the problem. While it doesn't need a whole load of fresh air during colonisation, it still needs some route for gas exchange. In future I'd just cut 2 holes, one at each end, around coffee mug width. Stuff them really tight with polythene fibre during colonisation, and stuff them really loose during fruiting.
Finally, the substrate itself. Unwashed coir contains a really high salt content. Soak some in water and dip your finger in. Give it a lick. If its salty, you guessed it! Its unwashed and you've probably found your answer :grin:

Are you set on using coir? Straw and manure are an excellent bulk substrate, probably a lot cheaper than coir too and a whole load more nutritious.

Edited by Amino (05/02/20 12:32 PM)

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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Amino] * 1
    #26643593 - 05/02/20 12:28 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

My guess is that you are the problem OP don't go mixing up tubs that have been colonizing for two weeks. Let the tub do its thing. Next time leave them until they either fruit or mold.

Also welcome to shroomery. Looks like you've been here for awhile but I haven't seen you around. :wave:


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Edited by gizmo1 (05/02/20 12:31 PM)

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OfflineAmino
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: gizmo1]
    #26643614 - 05/02/20 12:36 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

^ This should be you primary lesson to take home though OP! Patience is a valuable skill to have.

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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Amino]
    #26643666 - 05/02/20 12:57 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

I don’t know about fungicide in coir but some brands do have trich in them. Usually the ones you get from plant places instead of pet stores. I doubt that’s the issue though. What brand coir? And how do you prep the bulk sub?


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26643786 - 05/02/20 01:48 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

If it was from trich then there would be trich growing.


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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26643855 - 05/02/20 02:19 PM (4 years, 17 days ago)

Thank you for your replies, guys. I was really saddened by my failure and very pleased to receive support and advice.

Quote:

A.k.a said: I’d bet it was starting to fruit, the timing is right on schedule at 2 weeks.


I hope you are right, but don't really count on that. In both attempts I made two tubs and mixed only one of each pair, leaving second tub as control. So for the first pair it is almost 5 weeks now, without any visible progress. I still keep them, because I have spare empty tubs for next experiments. But if I can agree that two weeks is a very short period to make conclusions, I think almost 5 weeks are pretty sufficient.

Quote:

Amino said:
If patience wasn't the issue...
Your substrate does look a bit compacted, but I've spawned to straight horse poo many times, which is no doubt more dense than coir, and the mycelium had no problems tearing through it. How fine is your coir? I've seen it almost powdered before in reptile bedding etc..


On my first try sub was on the wet side of field capacity, and I think in my attempt to level it very evenly I could accidentally pack it too dense. But on my second attempt I cooked it closer to the dry side and tried to keep it as fluffy and airy as I can.
Quote:

Amino said: Gas exchange/FAE is my next point. You say the tub is unmodified, do you open it daily or provide any form of gas exchange other than not sealing the lid? That may be at least part of the problem. While it doesn't need a whole load of fresh air during colonisation, it still needs some route for gas exchange. In future I'd just cut 2 holes, one at each end, around coffee mug width. Stuff them really tight with polythene fibre during colonization, and stuff them really loose during fruiting.


I check them every day in the morning by fully opening the lid. I don't specifically «fan» them with the lid, but I still think that it provides enough GE for colonization. Also there are wires going to the LED strip glued to the lid, so with unlocked lids there is about 1mm gap around full perimeter of the tub.
Quote:

Amino said:Finally, the substrate itself. Unwashed coir contains a really high salt content. Soak some in water and dip your finger in. Give it a lick. If its salty, you guessed it! Its unwashed and you've probably found your answer :grin:


Tried to do it with a remained coir right now and, well, maybe, only maybe, it is very slightly salty.
Quote:

Amino said:
Are you set on using coir? Straw and manure are an excellent bulk substrate, probably a lot cheaper than coir too and a whole load more nutritious.


I have problems obtaining straw this time of the year and in self-isolation. So I was thinking about trying pure manure sub, because manure is available with delivery in 30qt bags. In my area such industrially packed manure costs almost as much as coir, but indeed cheaper than coir + verm. But all my digging through shroomery was targeted on CVG, so I have to do my research again. But for now it is my best plan, except trying to fruit pure millet directly in jars.


Quote:

gizmo1 said:
My guess is that you are the problem OP don't go mixing up tubs that have been colonizing for two weeks. Let the tub do its thing. Next time leave them until they either fruit or mold.


As I said earlier to A.k.a. I mixed only one tub of each pair, leaving second as control, and those tubs still show no signs of colonization :frown:

Quote:

gizmo1 said:Also welcome to shroomery. Looks like you've been here for awhile but I haven't seen you around. :wave:


Thank you! These are my first steps in cultivation so I have absolutely no experience, but shroomery is a wonderful place with a lot of valuable info, so I spent months digging around. And all previous steps like MS inoculation, sterile agar work, oat and wbs prep, even LC experiments were so highly successful only thanks to the local community. You guys saved me a ton of time!



Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
I don’t know about fungicide in coir but some brands do have trich in them. Usually the ones you get from plant places instead of pet stores. I doubt that’s the issue though. What brand coir? And how do you prep the bulk sub?


My first batch was pure coir prepped with some kind of bucket tek. Sub was pasteurized with boiling water and thermal insulation, starting from 200°F and slowly cooling during 12 hours with almost 3 first hours at >170°F.
After first failure I decided to go further, and my second batch was CVG mix sterilized in PC for 1.5h at 250°F.
My coir is from «plant place», but I really think that contams are not the most likely problem.

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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: A.k.a]
    #26643869 - 05/02/20 02:25 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
If it was from trich then there would be trich growing.


Well, all of my 4 tubs show no signs of any contams, even after mixing of two tubs.
The last pair have very strong and pure mushroom smell. First pair (which I still think is dead) keeps smelling the same but a lot less now. Unfortunately, I have no experience with contams so I know no other ways to detect bactarial contam. But even with my lack of experience I'm sure I'm able to spot trich.

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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: unnamed]
    #26644011 - 05/02/20 03:20 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Trich is very obvious and pretty aggressive stuff. I was just mentioning the only non mush cult friendly additive I’d ever heard of being in coir but if you’re getting it from a plant place, still can’t think of the correct name lol, you might be getting some with something unfriendly about it. What brand is it?

Did you ever post your sub recipe ratios? I’ve seen a lot of people having very wet substrate that they call field capacity. Bacteria hanging out in there is a possibility too but I’ve never had it fully stop colonization from happening. Either it colonizes well enough and tries to fruit or some contaminant mold starts doing its thing.


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Offlineunnamed
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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26644170 - 05/02/20 04:47 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
What brand is it?


It is a local brand


Quote:

Roger Clemency said:Did you ever post your sub recipe ratios? I’ve seen a lot of people having very wet substrate that they call field capacity. Bacteria hanging out in there is a possibility too but I’ve never had it fully stop colonization from happening. Either it colonizes well enough and tries to fruit or some contaminant mold starts doing its thing.


My first attempt was 17.5oz pure coir, 2.5qt water. If squeezed hard enough, it streams ~10 drops of water. After mixing with oat sub was heavy and dense.
Second attempt was 17.5oz coir + 2qt verm with ~2.7qt of water. If squeezed as hard as I can it lost 1-2 drops. This time sub is really fluffy and airy.

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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #26644179 - 05/02/20 04:51 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Well we clearly see what the problem is here. But I just wanted to wave at pirateswazey. :wave:

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Re: Two grows on a coir sub stalled. Please help to identify the problem. [Re: Sockadin]
    #26656722 - 05/08/20 06:38 AM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Hey sock :wave:

You’re the only one to recognize a white buffalo. . .

Been a long time since I’ve seen you around too!

Hope all is well! :peace:


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