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Registered: 12/28/10 Posts: 8,546 Loc: |
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Quote: Here's 70 articles that directly or indirectly study the effectiveness of masks, many from 2020, many older. As usual, you're about as far away from the truth as possible. At least you're consistent 1/70 "Visualizing the effectiveness of face masks in obstructing respiratory jets," Verma et al., June 30 2020, Phys Fluids: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/p 2/70 "Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US" Lyu et al., June 16 2020, Health Affairs: https://www.healthaffa 3/70 "Association of country-wide coronavirus mortality with demographics, testing, lockdowns, and public wearing of masks" Leffler et al., June 15 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 4/70 "Identifying airborne transmission as the dominant route for the spread of COVID-19" Zhang et al., June 11 2020, PNAS: https://www.pnas.org/con 5/70 "A modelling framework to assess the likely effectiveness of facemasks in combination with ‘lock-down’ in managing the COVID-19 pandemic" Stutt et al., June 10 2020, Proc. R. Soc. A.: https://royalsocietypublish 6/70 META: "Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis," June 1 2020, Lancet: https://www.thelancet.c 7/70 "Face coverings for the public: Laying straw men to rest" Greenhalgh, May 26 2020, Journal of Evaluation of Clinical Practice: https://onlinelibrary 8/70 "COVID-19 and the Social Distancing Paradox: dangers and solutions" Marchiori, May 26 2020, arXiv: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2 9/70 "Cloth Masks May Prevent Transmission of COVID-19: An Evidence-Based, Risk-Based Approach," Clase et al., May 22 2020, An of Int Med.: https://www.acpjournals. 10/70 "Quantitative Method for Comparative Assessment of Particle Filtration Efficiency of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks for PPE" Mueller et al., May 18 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 11/70 "Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China" Wang et al., May 11 2020, BMJ Global Health: https://gh.bmj.com/con 12/70 "The flow physics of COVID-19" Mittal et al., May 1 2020, J. Fluid Mech.: https://www.cambridge.or 13/70 "Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks" Konda et al., ACS Nano, April 24 2020: https://pubs.acs.org/doi 14/70 "Epidemiological characteristics of COVID-19 in medical staff members of neurosurgery departments in Hubei province: A multicentre descriptive study," Wang et al., Apr 24 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 15/70 "A rapid systematic review of the efficacy of face masks and respirators against coronaviruses and other respiratory transmissible..." MacIntyre et al., Apr 21 2020, Int J Nursing Studies: https://www.sciencedi 16/70 "Universal Masking is Urgent in the COVID-19 Pandemic: SEIR and Agent Based Models, Empirical Validation, Policy Recommendations," Kai et al., Apr 21 2020, arXiv: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2 17/70 "Assessment of Fabric Masks as Alternatives to Standard Surgical Masks in Terms of Particle Filtration Efficiency" Mueller et al., Apr 17 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 18/70 "Visualizing Speech-Generated Oral Fluid Droplets with Laser Light Scattering," Anfinrud et al., Apr 15 2020, N Engl J Med: https://www.nejm.org/doi/f 19/70 "Transmission of COVID-19 to Health Care Personnel During Exposures to a Hospitalized Patient — Solano County, California, February 2020," Heinzerling et al., Apr 14 2020, CDC MMWR: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/ 20/70 META: "Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review," Howard et al., Apr 12 2020, Preprints: https://www.preprin 21/70 META: "Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis," Greenhalgh et al., April 9 2020, BMJ: https://www.bmj.com/conten 22/70 "The Case for Universal Cloth Mask Adoption and Policies to Increase Supply of Medical Masks for Health Workers" Abaluck et al., April 6 2020, SSRN: https://papers.ssrn.com/s 23/70 META: Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID-19: A rapid systematic review," Brainard et al., April 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 24/70 "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Part 1 - Face masks, eye protection and person distancing: systematic review and meta-analysis," Jefferson et al., Apr 7 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.o 25/70 "Widespread use of face masks in public may slow the spread of SARS CoV-2: an ecological study," Kenyon, Apr 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 26/70 "Could SARS-CoV-2 be transmitted via speech droplets?," Anfinrud et al., Apr 6 2020, medRxiv: https://www.medrxiv.or 27/70 "Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks" Leung et al., Nat Med, April 3 2020: https://www.nature.com/a 28/70 "Potential Utilities of Mask-Wearing and Instant Hand Hygiene for Fighting SARS-CoV-2" Ma et al., J Med Virol., March 31 2020: https://onlinelibrary.wil 29/70 "Calibrated Intervention and Containment of the COVID-19 Pandemic," Tian et al., Mar 16 2020, arXiv: https://arxiv.org/ftp/ar 30/70 META: "Effectiveness of N95 Respirators Versus Surgical Masks Against Influenza: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis," Long et al., Mar 13 2020, J Evid Based Med.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.n 31/70 "Association between 2019-nCoV transmission and N95 respirator use," Wang et al., Mar 3 2020, J Hosp Infect.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.n 32/70 "Risk of transmission via medical employees and importance of routine infection-prevention policy in a nosocomial outbreak of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)" Ki et al., Oct 30 2019, BMC Pulm Med.: https://bmcpulmmed.biomed 33/70 "N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel, A Randomized Clinical Trial," Radonovich et al., Sept 3 2019, JAMA: https://jamanetwork.com/j 34/70 "Modeling the Effectiveness of Respiratory Protective Devices in Reducing Influenza Outbreak" Yan et al., Sept 19 2018, Risk Analysis: https://onlinelibrary 35/70 "Risk Factors for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Personnel," Alraddadi et al., Nov 2016, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid 6/70 "Surveillance of the Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) coronavirus (CoV) infection in healthcare workers after contact with confirmed MERS patients" Kim et al., July 27 2016, Clin Microb Infect.: https://www.clinicalmi 37/70 META: "Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis" Smith et al. May 17 2016. CMAJ: https://www.cmaj.ca/cont 38/70 "Transmission Among Healthcare Worker Contacts With a Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Patient in a Single Korean Centre," Kim et al., Feb 2016, Clin Microbiol Infect.: https://www.clinicalmi 39/70 "Pilot Randomised Controlled Trial to Test Effectiveness of Facemasks in Preventing Influenza-like Illness Transmission Among Australian Hajj Pilgrims in 2011," Barasheed et al., 2014, Infect Disord Drug Targets: https://pubmed.ncbi.nl 40/70 "Protection by Face Masks against Influenza A(H1N1)pdm09 Virus on Trans-Pacific Passenger Aircraft, 2009," Zhang et al., Sep 2013, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 41/70 "Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?" Davies et al., Aug 2013, Disaster Med Public Health Prep.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih 42/70 "Effectiveness of surgical masks against influenza bioaerosols" Booth et al., May 2013, Journal of Hosp Inf: https://www.sciencedirect. 43/70 "Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks" Milton et al. Mar 7 2013. PLoS Pathog: https://www.ncbi.nlm.ni 44/70 "Effectiveness of Selected Surgical Masks in Arresting Vegetative Cells and Endospores When Worn by Simulated Contagious Patients," Green at al., Mar 16 2012, Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol.: https://pubmed.ncbi 45/70 "The Role of Facemasks and Hand Hygiene in the Prevention of Influenza Transmission in Households: Results From a Cluster Randomised Trial; Berlin, Germany, 2009-2011," Suess et al., Jan 26 2012, BMC Infect Dis.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.n 46/70 "Facemasks, Hand Hygiene, and Influenza Among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Jan 25 2012, PLoS One: https://journals.plos.org 47/70 "Is Abdominal Obesity Associated With the 2009 Influenza A (H1N1) Pandemic in Korean School-Aged Children?" Kim et al., Dec 8 2011, Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses: https://onlinelibrary. 48/70 META: "Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" Jefferson et al., July 6 2011, Cochrane Database Syst Rev.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 49/70 "Impact of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions on URIs and Influenza in Crowded, Urban Households," Larson et al., Mar 2010, Public Health Rep.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 50/70 "Mask Use, Hand Hygiene, and Seasonal Influenza-Like Illness Among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial," Aiello et al., Feb 15 2010, J Infect Dis.: https://academic.oup.com/ 51/70 "Risk factors for SARS infection among hospital healthcare workers in Beijing: a case control study," Tang et al., Oct 7 2009, Trop Med & Int Health: https://onlinelibrary.w 52/70 "Facemasks and Hand Hygiene to Prevent Influenza Transmission in Households: A Cluster Randomized Trial," Cowling et al., 6 Oct 2009, Ann Intern Med.: https://www.acpjournals.o 53/70 "A Quantitative Assessment of the Efficacy of Surgical and N95 Masks to Filter Influenza Virus in Patients With Acute Influenza Infection," Johnson et al., July 15 2009, Clin Infect Dis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.ni 54/70 "Face Mask Use and Control of Respiratory Virus Transmission in Households," MacIntyre et al., Feb 2009, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 55/70 "The First Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trial of Mask Use in Households to Prevent Respiratory Virus Transmission," MacIntyre et al. Dec 1 2008, Int J Infect Dis.: https://www.ijidonline.co 56/70 "Risk Factors for SARS Infection Within Hospitals in Hanoi, Vietnam," Nishiyama et al., Sep 2008, Jpn J Infect Dis.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm. 57/70 "Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population," v.d.Sande et al., July 9 2008, PLoS One: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g 58/70 "Factors Associated With Nosocomial SARS-CoV Transmission Among Healthcare Workers in Hanoi, Vietnam, 2003," Reynolds et al., Aug 2006, BMC Public Health: https://bmcpublichealth 59/70 "Investigation of the Influencing Factors on Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Among Health Care Workers," Pei et al., June 18 2006, Beijing Da Xue Xue Bao Yi Xue Ban: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.ni 60/70 "Simple Respiratory Mask," Dato et al., June 2006, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 61/70 "Rapid Awareness and Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome in Hanoi French Hospital, Vietnam," Jul 1 2005, Am J Trop Med and Hyg.: http://www.ajtmh.org/cont 62/70 "Asymptomatic SARS Coronavirus Infection among Healthcare Workers, Singapore," Wilder-Smith et al., July 2005, Emerg Inf Dis.: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid 63/70 "Factors associated with transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome among health-care workers in Singapore," Teleman et al., Nov 8 2004, Epidemiol Infect.: https://www.cambridge. 64/70 "SARS Transmission, Risk Factors, and Prevention in Hong Kong," Lau et al., Apr 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih 66/70 "Risk Factors for SARS among Persons without Known Contact with SARS Patients, Beijing, China" Wu et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.g 67/70 "SARS Among Critical Care Nurses, Toronto," Loeb et al., Feb 2004, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih 68/70 "Effectiveness of Personal Protective Measures in Prevention of Nosocomial Transmission of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Yin et al., Jan 2004. Zhonghua Liu Xing Bing Xue Za Zhi: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.ni 69/70 "Illness in Intensive Care Staff After Brief Exposure to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome," Scales et al., Oct 2003, Emerg Infect Dis.: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih. 70/70 "Effectiveness of precautions against droplets and contact in prevention of nosocomial transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS)," Seto et al., May 3 2003, Lancet: https://www.thelancet.c
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Ditto!
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Chilldog Extraordinaire Registered: 02/21/08 Posts: 13,533 Loc: United States Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours |
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Quote: I do. -------------------- "Its moving of its own accord...and I like that in a shirt!" - Me, tripping. deCypher said: Schizophrenia beats dining alone, you know.
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Hard Ass Motherfucker Registered: 03/17/15 Posts: 6,107 Loc: Galactic sector Last seen: 2 years, 8 months |
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What, no links to these 70 studies?
That last one at the bottom doesn't work. At least I post links that work. ![]() Get it together, I want direct access to your sources, as I typically provide. -------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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Shroomery Secret Service Registered: 04/22/02 Posts: 20,529 Loc: PuppetMasterFlash Last seen: 4 hours, 20 minutes |
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I'm sure you know how to use google. Here, I'll help you out so we can all watch you cherry pick things.
https://scholar.google.com/ -------------------- Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus! quote]Urb said: I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]
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OTD Masterbater Registered: 02/07/07 Posts: 17,974 Loc: PNW |
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Quote: Ok so I browsed a few of these studies, here is 1 I found where people could take care of sick patients and have a or near 100% chance of not catching a virus from a patient. "Results: Univariate analysis showed that mask, gown, gloves, goggles, footwear, "hand-washing and disinfecting", gargle, "membrane protection", "taking shower and changing clothing after work", "avoid from eating and drinking in ward", oseltamivir phospha tall had protective effects (P < 0.05), but stepwise logistic regression showed significant differences for mask (OR = 0.78, 95% CI: 0.60 - 0.99), goggles (OR = 0.20, 95% CI: 0.10 - 0.41) and footwear (OR = 0.58, 95% CI: 0.39 - 0.86). Analysis for linear trend in proportions showed that dose response relationship existed in mask, gown, gloves, goggles, footwear, gargle, "membrane protection" and "taking shower and changing dree after work" (P < 0.01). The attack rate of HCWs who were rescuing severe SARS patients without any PPE was 61.5% (16/26). It seemed that the more the protective measures were used, the higher the protective effect was (P < 0.001), and could reach 100% if mask, gown, gloves, goggles, footwear, "hand-washing and disinfecting" were all used at the same time." Ok so should we all be out wearing gowns gloves etc? I mean this is what will protect you. So why do they tell us not to wear gloves while we go out? That is literally the current recommendation by our experts, don't wear gloves. See there is a difference between a plague doctor and someone going grocery shopping. 1 is those people don't know if they were ever near someone with the virus. So they're not in a panic state and are going to remove all their ppe after contact and shower etc immediately. The experts told us not to wear masks, they said they make us itchy and we will touch shopping carts and itch our faces and you can watch it happen all day over and over again in your local grocery store right now lmao. Imagine everyone in full PPE out there touching infected shopping carts and itching around their eyes cause they're wearing googles, itching their mouths and noses lol And when they get home they don't immediately shower. The experts before were telling us that on average masks gloves etc would actually increase the spread because of common normal human behaviors. -------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Quote:
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Registered: 12/28/10 Posts: 8,546 Loc: |
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I personally don't wear gloves, it's easy enough to just purell when needed. I'm not sure the reasoning behind that recommendation, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was based on the average person not understanding that gloves need to be changed or sanitized after every possible exposure to be more effective than not wearing gloves.
I think initially when Fauci said to only wear masks if you're sick or are around sick people, there were very few cases and very little knowledge of asymptomatic spread. Now that there are millions of cases and many of them are asymptomatic, the most effective method is to assume that everyone could be sick, because statistically it's at the point where in any large group one or more people probably will be (and will spread it). There was obviously the motive of conserving PPE as well, especially since it was at the time where people were buying things like disinfectant, gloves and toilet paper by the pallet. The intentions seem right, but it was a pretty awful way to go about things and I'm guessing he regrets it. N95's still offer superior protection, and can be paired with a surgical mask if they have a valve, but it's still recommended to conserve them for first responders and medical workers. If the virus had a higher death rate I'm guessing full gown/gloves/mask/goggles might be what was recommended. Since this one is very dangerous for many but has a relatively low death rate for most, the focus is probably to maintain as much normalcy as possible while still taking simple precautionary measures and conserving the more protective PPE as places continue to spike.
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OTD Masterbater Registered: 02/07/07 Posts: 17,974 Loc: PNW |
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N95s are not more effective, according to one of your studies that you spammed lol.
https://jamanetwork.com/journal "Conclusions and Relevance Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza." Stop dunning kruger so hard. -------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Registered: 01/03/13 Posts: 14,743 Loc: Outside |
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thats for the flu.... and if anything that shows that shitty masks work
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Registered: 12/28/10 Posts: 8,546 Loc: |
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As I said N95's offer superior protection than surgical masks, that is literally a physically measurable fact in terms of particle filtration and often fit as well. As far as effectiveness against COVID, one non-COVID study obviously doesn't prove anything in relation to COVID and N95 masks.
But feel free to continue ignoring the mountains of overwhelming data on mask efficacy to try to have your little "gotcha" moment.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: Mmmmmmm. Sounds sexual. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Quote: As long as it's consensual.
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OTD Masterbater Registered: 02/07/07 Posts: 17,974 Loc: PNW |
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Quote: Imagine linking me to a study and then disagreeing with the study you linked me to lmao Findings In this pragmatic, cluster randomized clinical trial involving 2862 health care personnel, there was no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among health care personnel with the use of N95 respirators (8.2%) vs medical masks (7.2%). -------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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OTD Masterbater Registered: 02/07/07 Posts: 17,974 Loc: PNW |
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And if you want to know another reason why all these masks don't work well talking is what aerosols it the most right and what do most people do when they talk? in my experience over 90% of people pull it down when talking thus defeating its theoretical purpose.
Example of re re mask wearers pulling it down to speak despite yelling as loud as they can. https://www.facebook.com/peter. -------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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OTD Masterbater Registered: 02/07/07 Posts: 17,974 Loc: PNW |
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Even at many of the protests people pull it down all the time especially while talking, even if they have a damn megaphone the pull it down to speak into it lol.
Holland and their experts think masks should only be worn on transit and no where else. The false sense of security and moral high ground just having the masks gives people makes them do stupid shit that increases the spread: Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/new -------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Registered: 12/28/10 Posts: 8,546 Loc: |
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Quote: I'm not disagreeing with you or the study, I'm just (for the third time now) stating a fact that n95's offer superior protection over surgical masks. That's not really up for debate, they have better particle filtration and usually a far more airtight seal/fit. That was a small part of my original post and just pointing out how we're being told to save medical equipment for healthcare workers, which they said was partially why they didn't advocate for everyone wearing masks at first. I never said they're more effective against COVID, that's not what the study you cited is about and that's not something I'm even really concerned with. I can't get my hands on one and if I could I'd probably donate it anyway. That said, with COVID healthcare workers are often spending full 12+ hour shifts on wards with hundreds of people super infected and very likely coughing on and near the workers. That's a far different situation than business as usual at a hospital during flu season, like in the study you cited from the list I posted.If I was working a COVID ward, I'd want an N95, even though I don't think they've been studied with COVID vs surgical masks in that setting yet. Seems like most nurses/doctors agree.
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Interesting lifetime Registered: 12/13/17 Posts: 9,136 |
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If I was overweight and young wear one. It is MANDATORY in the state I live. To do anything. Immune system is everything and one can point out a few that are not but that is why I like statistics. Guess I got it from softball or riding buses or who knows. But it gives one a more objective approach to it.
Felt it go through me but lasted 3 days I think. Including how many Hispanics that live with 3 generations and blacks at a much lower rate and then whites at 7 percent. So many factors play into this. Not writing something for a College or University so I don't need to endlessly prove my point. Hispanics are overweight for the most part. No judgement, get the culture. Which is, eat healthy, exercise, and odds are you won't die. Same as before Covid.
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Bodhi Registered: 08/16/16 Posts: 26,657 Loc: The Primordial Mind |
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Lol
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Stranger in Paradise Registered: 12/18/14 Posts: 2,988 Loc: so many roads |
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The (lack of) logic some subscribe to is beyond unsettling. Yes, shortage of empathy, but I suspect these are folks that have issues with abandonment and attachment.
The distortion is a mental illness though, and I do not mean that to be insulting. Look Hammy, by now you have dug in your heels and doubled down. So your mind will not be changed. What I do feel is a learning opportunity for you, would be to reflect upon how flexible you are, how often do you compromise in relationships? Wearing a mask will not take away your liberty. Quit focusing on material value and look at the big picture. Ten years down the road, will you reflect on the brutal mandate to wear a mask for a few months, or the lives lost/forever impacted- Oh and on that note- saying that you dont want to be punished for other peoples lifestyle choices is bullshit. You must be super lucky to not have yourself or a family member with a chronic illness that developed due to no consequence of their own. Be grateful. -------------------- From all I may be, or have been before, To mingle with the Universe, and feel What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.
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