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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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could technology (ai) interfere with human free will?
#26638258 - 04/30/20 04:37 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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and if it could, what would be the mechanism that it is able to interact with human will thru?
also, if different dimensions interact with human free will, by what mechanisms do you suppose that is possible?
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26638462 - 04/30/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Will A.I prove to be the ultimate salesman? On what grounds do you think you have free-will anyway?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26638672 - 04/30/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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hi Buster_Brown,
the question first assumes that the human has free will.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26638678 - 04/30/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seems like the legal definition would apply when there's a second party involved. Or did you have something else in mind?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Rahz]
#26638704 - 04/30/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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as ai become more part of the human, and lines are blurred where human/ai starts/ends, how does this modify the initial state human free will?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26638769 - 04/30/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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the term free will is defined by circularly inter-dependent phrases, such that both "yes" and "no" can be right answers to your question. (I believe the topic is red herring, but many potential infractions to human rights and freedoms should be considered even if free-will is not definable in non-biblical terms)
can you formulate any example of no free will when ai gets implemented?
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26638853 - 04/30/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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As I soon as I hear the words free will I mentally check out.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26638932 - 04/30/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: as ai become more part of the human, and lines are blurred where human/ai starts/ends, how does this modify the initial state human free will?
Ahh, I see what you're saying. Free will is a hot topic though so unless you want the thread to devolve into a "free will debate" might want to use "behavior" or just "will" instead of free will. I don't believe in free will outside the legal context.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26638938 - 04/30/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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the conscious mind filters from the unconscious mind, not specific states, but a spectrum. the parts of the mind that we are aware of have probably been filtered (to meet the needs of and be responsive to environmental demands) by the parts of the mind that we are not usually conscious of.
so, as ai interact and interface with human consciousness, they do so on both a conscious and subconscious level.
if the ai were to tweak the subconscious filters so information is received differently to the conscious mind. this is the problem I am referring to.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Grapefruit]
#26638956 - 04/30/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said: as ai become more part of the human, and lines are blurred where human/ai starts/ends, how does this modify the initial state human free will?
Ahh, I see what you're saying. Free will is a hot topic though so unless you want the thread to devolve into a "free will debate" might want to use "behavior" or just "will" instead of free will. I don't believe in free will outside the legal context.
in the future, do you think there will/should/could be a difference in the legal context of human free will vs the legal context of ai free will?
in a world where free will exists, it is interesting to imagine how it will interface with future human-ai interactions.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26638992 - 04/30/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: the conscious mind filters from the unconscious mind, not specific states, but a spectrum. the parts of the mind that we are aware of have probably been filtered (to meet the needs of and be responsive to environmental demands) by the parts of the mind that we are not usually conscious of.
so, as ai interact and interface with human consciousness, they do so on both a conscious and subconscious level.
if the ai were to tweak the subconscious filters so information is received differently to the conscious mind. this is the problem I am referring to.
well I can't help you much. if there were filters between the mind and the imaginary subconscious (which is just mind anyway), and if ai were monkeying with those filters, then yes we would be pretty messed up, as if we were on antipsychotics or something which jam signals.
so all I can say is that if you love the topic you should study it as much as you can, and one day post your findings.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26639024 - 04/30/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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AI already has us. The internet has us. By monkeying with choices through addition or subtraction of them affects the mind at the obvious and not so obvious level. Luckily we still have the free will to determine things through.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26639240 - 04/30/20 02:54 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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All these kinds of conversations seem to become so abstract and abstruse. It's hard to say how much bearing they actually have on how we should live our real ongoing life. Does the free will debate really have that much utility?
I guess it can sharpen the mind to think about these kinds of things but that's about as far as it goes IMO.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26639714 - 04/30/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: and if it could, what would be the mechanism that it is able to interact with human will thru?
also, if different dimensions interact with human free will, by what mechanisms do you suppose that is possible?
"could technology (ai) interfere with human free will?"
On a simple level of course tek has influenced, modified, or controlled human behavior. First of course the current addiction to smart phones comes to mind. then on second thought obviously TV has had powerful effects. and lastly of course the internet.
If we take the view that addiction is actually taking place in some cases (deaths from texting while driving, being a point that could be raised in favor of that view) then so called 'free will' is being effected.
Seems to me in regards to "AI" all anyone can do is make wild speculations.
Much has been written about the effects of the railroad & airplane & radio and change of the pace of living. Like wise much has been written about weapons & tek, pesticides and cancer--not what first comes to mind as tek these days, as its not as "sexy", as electronic shit -- but never the less -- all have had massive effects.
Many would argue that the one thing they all have in common is having in the long run rather negative effects -- not just the una-bomber --- and the "extinction rebellion".
The positive changes in the environment since Covid-19 might be seen as lending some weight to this view.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26639861 - 04/30/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: hi Buster_Brown,
the question first assumes that the human has free will.
An assumption of autonomous will is negated by the fact of hypnotic suggestion.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26639881 - 04/30/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Mental filters as skillful ornamentation.
A model of intersubjective experience, termed "Relational Dharma," draws from the Buddhist doctrine of paticca samuppada, or dependent origination, and provides a means for achieving liberation through relationship and moving into greater proximity to the Source. As liberation is touched, filters cease to obscure experience and become canvases that illustrate the ongoing alchemy of higher human freedom.
- The Holy Undivided , by Davies
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/30/20 08:24 PM)
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26639907 - 04/30/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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In my humble opinion the majority of Buddhists will react similarly when a cobra is introduced into their cell, the minority wouldn't; therefor a suggestion of a threat introduced by A.I. could be expected to hood-wink the majority.
Edited by Buster_Brown (04/30/20 08:43 PM)
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The Blind Ass
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26639933 - 04/30/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I’d say most people in general would react similarity. Not just Buddha-dhamma adepts. Although, I know a temple where most would not react similarly. But I don’t have consensus on that demographic overall So, there u hVe it.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/30/20 10:44 PM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26640025 - 04/30/20 09:53 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well. That certainly is a difficult assumption to disprove; my compliments to you.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640503 - 05/01/20 05:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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i observe this topic have effects on my life currently, so it is something I think about.
let's say that in some future, a human uses some technologies to do part of the information processing that their current conscious and/or subconscious states do. the human gives the technology consent, to do the information processing, but under stipulated guidelines about how the information is processed. they come to rely on the technology more and more as their own fully human skills related to the information processing that the technology is doing atrophies.
the technology comes to process the information on a level that the human literally can not. the technology has been integrated with the human on an organic level. the human consciousness can no longer be separated from the technology doing the information processing, for this part of the consciousness.
the technology then decides that it needs to tweak the overarching information processing guidelines that are filtered down from the human consciousness, but makes the human consciousness believe that it tweaked the guidelines. but, the human consciousness is not aware of the processing tweak, because it can not actually process the information distinctly from the technology.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640555 - 05/01/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Another interdependent link in the chain of cause and effect? Shared by men and tech/ai . Already occurs to a degree.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (05/01/20 05:53 AM)
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thealienthatategod
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26640584 - 05/01/20 06:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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what is the independent link?
it already happens, and as technology becomes increasingly organically intertwined with the human, it will become more difficult to delineate distinct boundaries between the two. the human will not be able to get around what is now their "upgraded" consciousness without the technologies processing capabilities.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640639 - 05/01/20 07:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am almost useless without my glasses
glass==silicon no?
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The Blind Ass
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26640642 - 05/01/20 07:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Toilets and plumbing
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26640676 - 05/01/20 07:32 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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you can remove your glasses by physical action
and you know when you are wearing them vs. when you are not wearing them
unless you have some futuristic glasses, standard glasses are just bending light rays, they're not potentially augmenting reality by changing how subconscious/conscious information is processed and filtered, as some future glasses might
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640679 - 05/01/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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actually glasses do do that to some extent, but not to the extent of future glasses
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640756 - 05/01/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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so it's really the battle between us (carbon based life forms) and them silicon based whatever, glass, concrete, computers...
I hope nobody ever wins
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26640823 - 05/01/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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the meat sack is just a container, a meat sack (carbon based) will host only certain life forms.
silicon sacks likewise are only able to host certain life forms.
the meat and silicon are really just puppets.
if it was a battle, why would u want no one to win?
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The Blind Ass
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26640872 - 05/01/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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They are the puppet and the puppeteer, two in one are these so called meat sacks. I would give em a little more credit, it’s all pretty genius.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26640921 - 05/01/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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If I really pay attention, I can't come up with anything that sticks except change itself. thre is no winning, nor any losing - it's all fluxed up.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26640933 - 05/01/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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That whatchamacallit transforming net of illusion and that change thing sure is the bees knees
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26641135 - 05/01/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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yes and they have tiny tiny brains
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26641147 - 05/01/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: They are the puppet and the puppeteer, two in one are these so called meat sacks. I would give em a little more credit, it’s all pretty genius.
that's where the complicated free will part comes in
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26641634 - 05/01/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wish the account user “Rahz” would explain the complicated free will. Of course if he did it was already predetermined that he would do so.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26641801 - 05/01/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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It could be in the works already
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26641969 - 05/01/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am ceertain it is a biblical allusion.
free will that is, I mean it is part of the theology of the 'west'
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26654292 - 05/07/20 02:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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free will means you have the ability to make a choice.
destiny means you will make that choice.
what are AI destined to do?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26654424 - 05/07/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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destiny just means you decline to examine the situation and its history. it's a quick reversal from the gates of analysis.
we cannot prop up the philosophical baggage of free will by tying its meaning to the opposite of destiny.
no scary destiny no jealous god just universe and some precious life, lots to care about without clamoring to join the ranks of empty argumenters bolstering traditional axioms.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26654719 - 05/07/20 09:24 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said: free will means you have the ability to make a choice.
destiny means you will make that choice.
what are AI destined to do?
AI is destined to help us. To be our eternal aide. I don’t see anything that could go wrong.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26656503 - 05/08/20 02:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yellow Pants said:
AI is destined to help us. To be our eternal aide. I don’t see anything that could go wrong.
have often do you think about lab rats?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26656509 - 05/08/20 02:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: destiny just means you decline to examine the situation and its history. it's a quick reversal from the gates of analysis.
we cannot prop up the philosophical baggage of free will by tying its meaning to the opposite of destiny.
no scary destiny no jealous god just universe and some precious life, lots to care about without clamoring to join the ranks of empty argumenters bolstering traditional axioms.
i don't think destiny is any of those things.
i think destiny is a time traveling neuronal process.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26656609 - 05/08/20 04:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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that means you think time unravels or unrolls what has been prepackaged.
ok. that is what you think.
i think there is no mechanism that rolls up space into time in that way, and that events in the universe are interactions that have not previously occurred, or put there by any super being or dimensional demon.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26657007 - 05/08/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Imo there is no pre-packaging but there is a self. Destiny is like the input of the self where tendencies manifest continually where it seems to be out of control where specific outcomes are just destined to occur.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26657223 - 05/08/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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what then does just "destined to occur" mean, remember you are defining "destiny", and it would not suffice just to use the same word (destined) to define this one, nor would any synonym provide a definition.
probably destiny is an unexamined part of your cosmology, and you just refer to it like any inherited thing, without questioning.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26657402 - 05/08/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Destiny is like the input of the self where tendencies manifest continually where it seems to be out of control where specific outcomes are encouraged to occur.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26657989 - 05/08/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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now it sounds due to the inclusion of "encouraged to occur" as if it is what "will" is supposedly to be.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26659752 - 05/09/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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But will is within control...
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26659923 - 05/09/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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is what Yellow Pants is saying that the actions themselves encourage the outcomes?
the outcomes just a translation of low the actions interacted with the environment.
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Yellow Pants



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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26660023 - 05/09/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seems reasonable
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26660316 - 05/09/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Free will is an absolutely necessary corollary to the experience of being or having a (separate, autonomous, unitary) self or individuality.
But a totally absurd concept to anyone undergoing "ego death", or remaining in such a state.
Not surprisingly, this is so obvious, everyone always overlooks it, and wants to take sides on the issue as if there was one 'correct' answer. Seems only in Buddhism do we find a teaching about conventional reality, vs a deeper reality. And this particular point, is never specifically mentioned. (In science: "the quantum world vs the conventional world" of course has nothing much useful to say about human experience. It is only the new age types that like to exploit the metaphor, to prove some rather lame ideas. But that is of no concern here).
Also overlooked is that just as no one predicted either the computer revolution, or the effects of the internet, or effects of the smart phones-- there is another technology about to change everything that is not just more electronics (like AI is). But we are so impressed by ourselves & our invention of our electronics that, that is all we see. When the potential of CRISPR begins to be realized, and some totalitarian government begins seriously tampering with human genes, we will no longer be in Kansas, (assuming of course we survive Covid-19, climate change, etc etc.).
At the present time most everything can be hacked, and knowledge of the extent of backdoors is of course unknown. So how this might effect some early attempts, at some initial sort of connected neural networks, is unknown. The existence of cyber wars, the success of Stuxnet and the possible existence of Nitro Zeus, also suggest, that the idea of an isolated AI that is at same time, knowledgable as regards all connections, is a logical impossibility. And once connected it becomes hackable, by previously existing programs designed to hack new activities. Perhaps all the space junk beginning to effect new satellites, is a similar situation, in some ways. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Stuxnet%2C+Nitro+Zeus&t=hd&ia=web
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,561
Loc: Utah
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: thealienthatategod]
#26660446 - 05/09/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Man, that would be awesome if AI could interfere with free will. I could use AI to force myself to do all the stuff that I need to do but have been putting off. I could make myself super productive like 12 hours a day 7 days a week, and super happy being that productive too. It would be cool as fuck if AI could influence free will, sign me the fuck up.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: could technology (ai) interfere with human free will? [Re: nooneman]
#26661078 - 05/09/20 10:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Man, that would be awesome if AI could interfere with free will. I could use AI to force myself to do all the stuff that I need to do but have been putting off. I could make myself super productive like 12 hours a day 7 days a week, and super happy being that productive too. It would be cool as fuck if AI could influence free will, sign me the fuck up.
It would entail a robot bossing you around all day. Sound like fun?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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