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OfflineJoBloShow
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Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? * 1
    #26638239 - 04/30/20 04:26 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hello fellow Shroomerites!

Let me start off by saying that this is actually my very first post on this site, but I've been lurking in the Shroomery shadows for nearly a decade.
Every single morsel of information regarding mushroom cultivation that I have learned and earned has come solely from this site and through my own experiences using this information. The Shroomery is a treasure trove of knowledge and information; some good, some bad. Learning to separate the information from the misinformation has almost become an art form and has been part of the fun.
I have to extend my sincere gratitude to all members of this site who have taken and still do take the time to share their knowledge with others so they too can learn the tricks of the trade of this wonderful hobby of cultivation.
Without all of you who are willing to teach others what you have learned through hard work, patience, persistence, and trial and error, many of us would simply not be where we are now in this hobby, or may not even be in the hobby at all, and that would simply be a shame.

I have been growing cubes very successfully now for about the same amount of time as stated above.  Monotubs with rye grain spawn and coir/verm/gypsum substrate are my go-to.  I'm also in the agar game, cloning and isolating.
Up to this point, I've only ever cloned to expand mycelium and to keep a culture going, and have done so simply by choosing a nice, healthy looking mushroom to clone.
I have never actually chosen to clone a mushroom with a distinguishing characteristic...  Until now.

I have a few different strains (varieties) growing at the moment and one of my favorites to work with has been AA+ Albino.
During a particular recent grow, a mushroom happened to grow that had a very pronounced "dimple" in the center of the cap.



I've seen this dimple in other fruits before (although not quite as pronounced), but this time I decided to try an experiment. I wanted to see if I could reproduce this dimple by cloning this mushroom.
So, I took a tissue sample from it and put it on agar. As it grew out, it sectored, which I expected. I proceeded to take 4 individual samples from 4 different sectors, transferred them to 4 new agar plates and labelled them as Dimple A, B, C and D. Once those transfers had grown out in their respective plates and were evidently clean, I transferred a wedge from each plate into a jar of rye grain and labelled them correspondingly. Once the jars were fully colonized, I mixed each jar (separately, of course) with coir/verm/gypsum and placed the mixed substrate into aluminum trays with a cover, labelled them appropriately, and let them colonize.  Once the trays were fully colonized, I put them into fruiting inside propagation trays filled with perlite with a 7" dome cover.

To be honest, I thought this experiment was almost guaranteed to yield positive results.  I was certain that at least ONE of the four grows would produce a flush where most, if not all, of the mushrooms would have the same dimple as the parent clone.

All four grows were successful in the sense that they produced very nice flushes of beautiful, healthy mushrooms. But, to my surprise and disappointment, NONE of the four grows even produced a single mushroom with a dimple on the first flush.
Needless to say this was quite disappointing. However, I held on to a glimmer of hope that the dimples might begin to reveal themselves in the second flush.
So I dunked the subs and put them back into fruiting.  But once again, disappointment. Again, None of the four grows produced a single mushroom with a dimple in the second flush either.  Womp wompp.

So at this point I had accepted defeat and was already resigned to the fact that I would not see this beautiful dimple reproduced. I dunked the subs again as I always do in between flushes and put them back into fruiting. 
I know you don't get too much weight from a third flush, especially with trays made from a single quart of spawn, but I had plenty of space in my grow room so why throw them out if they're not contaminated, right??  Especially while conducting an experiment!

So back into fruiting they go.  Now, here's where things get interesting.  A third flush pops up, and boom. Dimple City.  Okay, maybe not dimple city, but more than half the mushrooms in this flush have a dimple.  Some are quite pronounced like in their parent, and some not as much, though still clearly there.





So, what the hell is going on here??  How and why would a particular phenotype of a cloned mushroom only appear on a third flush??  It should be stated for information's sake that the parent clone was taken from either a second or possibly even third flush, I don't really remember, but I hardly see this being relevant, as the genotype of all mushrooms grown from a clone should be the same throughout all flushes.

So the experiment was somewhat successful, but definitely yielded different results than predicted. 
Also, the four grows were not all made exactly at the same time. I am still waiting for a third flush on three of the four trays. I'm anxious to see if these will have dimples as well... 

I would love to hear from anyone who might have any insight on this. Whether you have facts, hypotheses, similar experiences, dissimilar experiences...  All information is welcomed!


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: JoBloShow] * 1
    #26638339 - 04/30/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflinePiggyPig
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: poisoned]
    #26638390 - 04/30/20 06:58 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

When I clone, I always take an abnormally large fruit with nice traits. Once cleaned and made to fruit again, I tend to only get similar fruits on the 2nd/3rd flush as well. I've heard multiple theories on the reasons for this and do not know which is correct. I would assume it's due to lack of competition caused by the reduced density of the subsequent flushes. This is my hypothesis and I'm not sure if it is correct or not. Is it possible that the dimple only appears on larger fruits and that these larger fruits can only grow in environments with low competition? Perhaps the dimple has more to do with final fruit size than it does with genetics alone?


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: PiggyPig]
    #26638711 - 04/30/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

There are often many strains present in clones.

I look at it like this, if I clone from a cluster, there is a better chance that I'll get clusters :shrug:


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OfflineJoBloShow
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: PiggyPig]
    #26718564 - 06/04/20 07:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

*Update*

Here's another 3rd flush where almost all mushrooms have the dimple, where flushes 1 and 2 did not.



Whatever mechanism is at work here, I find it quite interesting.


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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OfflineJoBloShow
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: JoBloShow]
    #26718587 - 06/04/20 08:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Not sure if my update was posted in the correct way.  I think I may have replied to a comment instead of simply making a new comment on the thread.
New at this whole posting thing and still trying to figure it all out...!


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: JoBloShow]
    #26721638 - 06/05/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Probably a combo of genetics and environment. Like, they're more likely to expose that trait, but need certain conditions to do it.


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OfflineJoBloShow
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: poisoned]
    #26723458 - 06/06/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quite possible.
Very cool nonetheless though.


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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OfflineJoBloShow
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: JoBloShow]
    #26723460 - 06/06/20 06:46 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm digging this whole cloning thing!  haha


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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OfflineTstone
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: JoBloShow]
    #26724230 - 06/06/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Many might disagree, but I've personally taken clone tissue from a previous clone, and been running with this particular line for 18 months now. Talking many agar transfers from get go, 8-10, then cloned, then another 6-8 transfers, but gotta tell you, best I've worked with, shit is so predictable, so vigorous.  Just saying, try  cloning again. See what happens. Closer to an isolate. Even my third flushes, all tubs exactly the same, but taller, same potency.

Guess the question is, would a true isolate continue to produce different phenotypes in subsequent flushes? What's weird this AA+, out of 15 tubs in a run, I always get, just 1, seriously just 1 mushroom non Albino, out of 15 tubs. Talking about a recessed gene.  15 tubs is    90 jars a run, all from a single culture, yet, only 1 non Albino A+. Yet, it happens every 15 tub run, and only 3rd flush.


--------------------
Wake now, discover that you are the song that morning brings, but the heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own"


Edited by Tstone (06/06/20 02:26 PM)


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OfflineJoBloShow
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Re: Cloning for a specific trait... trait only appeared on 3rd flush?? [Re: Tstone]
    #26730858 - 06/09/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tstone said:
Many might disagree, but I've personally taken clone tissue from a previous clone, and been running with this particular line for 18 months now. Talking many agar transfers from get go, 8-10, then cloned, then another 6-8 transfers, but gotta tell you, best I've worked with, shit is so predictable, so vigorous.  Just saying, try  cloning again. See what happens. Closer to an isolate. Even my third flushes, all tubs exactly the same, but taller, same potency.



Hmmm, interesting!  To be honest, I've always thought to myself that there probably wouldn't be any issue with cloning a clone. Sure, the culture wouldn't be quite as young, but I hardly think it would have already started to degenerate this early. 

Sure, if you continuously clone a clone of a clone of a clone, then I'm sure you would definitely eventually run into issues; degeneration, senescence, or whatever else.

I might give it a go. I'd have to start a new grow of that clone though in order to be able to clone from it again. I do still have some "dimple clone cultures" in the mini-fridge.
Unless I attempt to revive a piece of tissue from a dried clone, which I've never personally done, but have heard is possible.

Quote:

Tstone said:
Guess the question is, would a true isolate continue to produce different phenotypes in subsequent flushes? 



That's a great question. My gut says yes.

Quote:

Tstone said:
What's weird this AA+, out of 15 tubs in a run, I always get, just 1, seriously just 1 mushroom non Albino, out of 15 tubs. Talking about a recessed gene.  15 tubs is    90 jars a run, all from a single culture, yet, only 1 non Albino A+. Yet, it happens every 15 tub run, and only 3rd flush.



Are you serious??  That's incredible!  :mindexpanding:

I've grown many tubs of AA+ and I've never gotten a non-albino mushroom!  Must be something in the genes you've cloned!
Fascinating though that it keeps happening so predictably.

I've gotta say, AA+ has been one of my favorite varieties to work with. It has always produced very well for me, even with MS.


--------------------
Following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been,
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been...



FIND THE BEAUTY IN THE DISSONANCE


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