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OfflineLion
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Effort, enthusiasm, mastery
    #26636460 - 04/29/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This is likely going to be a very unstructured post, as my threads tend to be. I don't have a central hypothesis or argument to present.

I've been thinking a lot about dedicating oneself to being very good at something. Probably the global quarantine is causing me to reflect on this even more, since so many people seem to be using this time - or want to use this time - to deepen a particular skill or learn a new one.

I find as I grow older that I both appreciate and feel envy and awe towards people who have a degree of mastery over something, whether it's a musical instrument, a sport, a profession or their own mental life.

My mind doesn't seem to be structured in a way that's conducive to learning things in a structured, methodical way. My siblings, for example, when they want to learn something, go about it in what seems like a normal way: watch online videos and practice, buy books and read them every day, practice and ask for feedback. I, on the other hand, tend to jump in in a very haphazard way, and always find my enthusiasm and discipline ebbing and flowing - usually ebbing more often than flowing.

Mastery appeals to me on multiple planes: First, the discipline over mind and body that it requires is impressive and desirable. I'm impressed by people who do complex, difficult things thoroughly and correctly. I think the cycle of pain, frustration, growth, breakthrough, backslide, re-entry, flow, further growth, and so on, is a healthy process for a human being to be engaged in. More healthy than the passive consumption that most of us engage in most of the time, and the feeling that life is just happening to us and carrying us along without our being able to steer it.

Mastery of a discipline is also something that's rare and thus confers a certain amount of social respect and admiration, and probably raises one's own self esteem and one's desirability as a friend and partner. That's appealing to me since I've always been very insecure about my place in the world and my intrinsic worthiness.

One dynamic I observe in myself (I've been diagnosed with ADHD and PTSD among other physical and mental conditions, but take both diagnoses as kind of road-markers of my mental condition rather than as concrete components of my identity), is that it's very hard for me to immerse and flow in anything I'm doing. My mind is very active and jumps from one set of ideas to another. For five minutes I'll fantasize and enthuse about learning some new discipline, deepening some skill or embarking on some new project, and five minutes later I'll have shifted to a different set of ideas.

When I try to learn something new, I learn by just doing it, but then have trouble actually systematically learning aspects of the thing that would help me progress more quickly, and end up being frustrated very often by how little measurable progress I seem to have made.

I've always had the desire to experience life from all levels and from all points of views. I've fantasized about being good at every kind of skill and profession and living in every corner of the planet, and as a result I've never narrowed my focus down to a few attainable goals. I think that's a cultural thing too, for western middle class people (especially men): we're given a sense that we can achieve and be anything, thrive anywhere, be well-rounded in all facets of life, but we rarely develop the discipline and integrity to be deeply good at and present in whatever we actually end up doing.

Since I don't have a conclusion or a way to sum up this line of thought, here's a quote that I've always found resonant since it was shared with me:

“I saw my life branching out before me like the green fig tree in the story. From the tip of every branch, like a fat purple fig, a wonderful future beckoned and winked. One fig was a husband and a happy home and children, and another fig was a famous poet and another fig was a brilliant professor, and another fig was Ee Gee, the amazing editor, and another fig was Europe and Africa and South America, and another fig was Constantin and Socrates and Attila and a pack of other lovers with queer names and offbeat professions, and another fig was an Olympic lady crew champion, and beyond and above these figs were many more figs I couldn't quite make out. I saw myself sitting in the crotch of this fig tree, starving to death, just because I couldn't make up my mind which of the figs I would choose. I wanted each and every one of them, but choosing one meant losing all the rest, and, as I sat there, unable to decide, the figs began to wrinkle and go black, and, one by one, they plopped to the ground at my feet.” - Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Lion]
    #26637218 - 04/29/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

when you immerse in what you love - visiting your lover becomes your practice. it is easy because of the love. easy to study, easy to relive moments - to remember, easy to share stories of.

others may wonder and exclaim about your mastery, your gift, your most enviable talent.

they all are wrong, you are just a man in love.

You must already love something, by reconnecting with that you will appear to be a master to fools who forgot about love


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Lion]
    #26637263 - 04/29/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It's all in the body. When you are relaxed, loose and open inside that prana/spirit/soul magic leaps out from your fingers and goes straight into the violin. And the lovely dopamine fuels the motivation for learning so you can do whatever you set yourself to. Talented bastards. I guess they earned it by virtue of leading lovely past lives but I'm still a little bitter about it. Nice music to lamely tap my foot to though so at least I get that out of it.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26638171 - 04/30/20 03:08 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

coherentness mental readiness

understanding

understanding that the brain can master

what it can master

it is like caring about something

a better foundation

and not having it of lower quality than non-existence

a joke of it being better than before where it wasn't negative

understanding where one must go like contact groundedness

understanding how one must practice

like a painting of where one must go

like a joy  of there it is


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26638759 - 04/30/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

this is a wonderful example of the heartfelt yearning to be a master, and taking steps towards that task instead of seeking to develop re-connection above all.



--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26638830 - 04/30/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Brilliant.

The whole desire for mastery and genius is one of the great western delusions/psychic wounds right next to the whole one true love thing.

It all came from Goethe and that crowd. I was reading somewhere that even Goethe recognised it was a nonsense in his later life. Mundane and simple living is very underrated. Just chill, do what you enjoy, and see where the Lord may take ye I think. Maybe he will take you there if you're a good boy and that's what you really want, but it's not gonna happen tomorrow.


Edited by Grapefruit (04/30/20 11:46 AM)


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26638876 - 04/30/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

yeah it is mostly just about what you do

good mental things can come from prioritizing the right things :smile:

not turning the other cheek is very very excellent

no violence (no harm)

is very very excellent


not doing wrong is very very excellent


not doing drugs is very excelelnt

in the process of becoming a master it is very very important how you do

share your good insights with others

demand honesty avbout what they are doing

enjoy

go as high as you can

I just came back with my thinking today

safe sailing and may the be work in approximately as much of your time as possible


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26638887 - 04/30/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You're speaking too many absolutes I think.

Not doing drugs and practicing virtues and lots of ascetism can be very constrictive for some. By all means if it works for you go for it but there's no need to flog yourself constantly. Just don't go hell bent on corporeal pleasure. My 2p.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26639692 - 04/30/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Mastery itself means a commitment has been made which I guess is admirable.  Although we don’t know what is was for.  There’s been some master roshi serial killers.  Being non committal could mean different things.  Either one is searching or simply attention deficit.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Lion]
    #26639799 - 04/30/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said: I've been thinking a lot about dedicating oneself to being very good at something.




Others have have already posted about choosing something you love, so I will point out the flip side of that coin: Everything has a price--so part of the questions becomes are you willing to pay that price? If not don't fool yourself.

Many skills require thousands of hours of practice, as well as daily practice --- for hours per day.

Louis Armstrong
“If I don’t practice for a day, I know it. If I don’t practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don’t practice for three days, the public knows it.”


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: laughingdog]
    #26640253 - 05/01/20 12:44 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Good point well made LD.

I just wanna say though, I saw that Sylvia Plath quote as quite related to my own life for years. And it is. But now I wonder what the fuck she was doing wasting here time looking enviably at all these fig branches, and why did I? The fig are splendid in Greece and after you eat one of those sweet little fuckers there's no need to anything but chill out and go to the beach, enjoy the silence. That part of life (silence) is already there, you don't need to do a thing about it. A dream is a great thing but why I had to force my life into being built around it I'll never know. There was so much living to do just with the friends I already knew and with basic activities, walks on the common, a drink in the pub, maybe get a dog. You could have a fig tree like that, or maybe call it a raspberry bush, or sloes, you stoop down to fill you basket and go home and make some sweet gin. Why the fuck I had to waste my life on some dream of voyaging out toward perfection itself I'll never know, it was a terrible mistake as I see it, even aside from the fact I drove myself mad in the process it was a waste of time.

@YP being non commital mightt be fine for someone with attention defecit too. Not mutually exclusive. They could do some puzzles or play some chess or join the tennis club if they were really concerned about concentration. Or just never mind about it and take it steady eddy. A walk in the park probably has benefits for concentration and awareness. At least if you're not thinking about that mad fig tree all the time that is.

(P.S. I think the quote in my sig is quite relevant here, it's a lovely quote and I try to live to my life by it now "the miracle is not to walk on water but to walk on earth".)


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (05/01/20 01:01 AM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Lion]
    #26640519 - 05/01/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The art of getting out of your own way, so you can "you", without you you-ing it up.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26641027 - 05/01/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
@YP being non commital mightt be fine for someone with attention defecit too. Not mutually exclusive. They could do some puzzles or play some chess or join the tennis club if they were really concerned about concentration. Or just never mind about it and take it steady eddy. A walk in the park probably has benefits for concentration and awareness. At least if you're not thinking about that mad fig tree all the time that is.





Sure.  Something to be self determined or by the doctor if that is your thing.  It also might be unacceptable to be non committal if you label yourself or are labeled add. 

Personally meditation when taken seriously is helpful.  Reading up on some theory and then implementing.  It takes a little time and have no idea if op is about that life.  But as someone diagnosed and medicated for add about ten years ago the problem seemed to be about over identification with thoughts which produced wild emotional reactions which fueled more agitating thoughts which led to more and more erratic actions.  Tossing on a bunch of stimulants then trying to calm the nerves with a ton of depressants just does not do the trick.  Exercise is helpful but that can get out of hand with injuries and is a bit unreliable.  Meditation is helpful.

It is like what LS said, just try to get out of your own way type of thing.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26641120 - 05/01/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
... A dream is a great thing but why I had to force my life into being built around it I'll never know. There was so much living to do just with the friends I already knew and with basic activities, .... Why the fuck I had to waste my life on some dream of voyaging out toward perfection itself I'll never know, it was a terrible mistake as I see it, even aside from the fact I drove myself mad in the process it was a waste of time.




I'm sure that is a good point and reflects your experience, and probably the experiences of many.

But if one just naturally finds an activity one loves, I see no harm, per se, in pursuing it ( provided it is "life supporting" ), even if one finds oneself getting better at it.

It has always seemed to me, however that those who pursue, getting a gold medal in the olympics, which requires subjugating one's whole life, to some arbitrary physical perfection, are rather misguided. It seems to me that in these cases, that the approval of others, has actually snuck into what was originally simply a source of joy.

Something similar seems to occur in the lives of some painters, where it is sometimes called "selling out". Outwardly they may seem to be successful, but the childhood joy of exploring, has been turned into a style, that must then be repeated to satisfy the public and market.

A famous example in music, is when Bob Dylan went electric and his fans booed him. It was in 1965, at the Newport Folk Festival. In his case he had the character to ignore them. And he had already made continuous efforts to be his own person. Although he is famous as a musician, he made great efforts to develop strength of character, and that is perhaps NOT a dream that is  always easy and fun. But it is just as important if not more so, than the music, or perhaps more accurately the music comes out of  that ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: laughingdog]
    #26641132 - 05/01/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

"Lay lady lay" was the best


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: laughingdog]
    #26641350 - 05/01/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Totally agree. Never a huge Dylan fan myself though. :lol: Always tend to prefer artists who dig a little deeper into the grit. He was a child of his time though I guess. Jim was the best of them IMO despite being a monumental fuck up. Jimi was pretty sexy too. David Byrne is the closest I get to loving something soft. TTH are my fav band of all time, but I am straying out of the era now.

Saw this lately and it reminded me of those 60/70s kids, very transcendent. Mostly I don't feel like it's made from mastery but soul, it's prana putting fire into that guitar, bit of both though for sure.



--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (05/01/20 01:39 PM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26641359 - 05/01/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Meditation can be helpful although I don't feel like it really suits the modern lifestyle for most. I feel like if you're going to pursue that you should do it very seriously and be of very stable mind already. Different strokes though I'm only guessing.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26641544 - 05/01/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Meditation can be helpful although I don't feel like it really suits the modern lifestyle for most. I feel like if you're going to pursue that you should do it very seriously and be of very stable mind already. Different strokes though I'm only guessing.




If by modern lifestyle you mean the blood curdling desperate and ambitious striving for money, appearances, wealth, “#1” etc. then I agree meditation, peacefully abiding, isn’t an attraction despite the positive effects it may have on these types of people.  Lion doesn’t strike me as this type of character tho.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26642263 - 05/01/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Any craft you choose is a journey. When I pick up a bass time disappears. I write, practice, study for hours on end. Sometimes I forget what day it is, what time I work the next day, etc. It is a love affair, no doubt, and no worries about divorce or anything like that.

You dissolve into what you love.

Not saying it supplants human connection. In fact, someone with a genuine “first love” is often more attractive to others.
Paradoxically, one grows more lonely in the sense that fewer understand you. But you’re not perturbed by this, because you signed the artist’s contract and you know what it entails.

If you cannot get yourself sufficiently motivated to pursue something, it’s probably just not in you. It requires love. Something drives dedication, discipline, etc.


Edited by CountHTML (05/01/20 09:45 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Effort, enthusiasm, mastery [Re: CountHTML]
    #26642355 - 05/01/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I recommend magic and meditation..

Maybe a video game or somethimg you can compete in..?

Writing?

Of course the most common suggestion is to begin a workout or yoga!


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