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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround * 1
    #26634998 - 04/28/20 05:59 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, first off, take EVERYTHING I am saying in this post with a grain of salt. I am not an experienced grower. I am the farthest thing from a botanist, horticulturist, or mycologist.

But I have seen that in a great many posts here and all over the web, that the SGFC seems to have sort of fallen out of favor with many people. The problem is that, while I know nothing about nothing on this topic, it really seems to me that, on paper, the theory of an SGFC is incredibly sound and should create the perfect fruiting environment for our cakes. RogerRabbit, arguably one of the foremost experts in mycology, clearly stated that the SGFC, when made properly, with enough holes and at least 4-5 inches of Perlite, should be ideal. He further states in one of the growing videos he posted that Perlite should (paraphrasing here) hold the water you initially irrigated it with for at least 30 days. And this is probably true for a lot of people.

Now I posted a thread [here] this morning because all 24 of my cakes seemed to have stalled, which maybe they have, maybe they haven't. But maybe I have accidentally stumbled upon a possible flaw in the design that isn't actually with the SGFC itself, but perhaps ambient conditions in some places getting in the way? Take me, for example. I live in NY City, and while I have always thought of The Big Apple as being humid as hell, I'm starting to realize this isn't true. At least not indoors, which is all I care about for the purposes of fruiting conditions necessary for mushroom growth. I can't even imagine living in dry, arid places like Arizona, parts of California, New Mexico, West Texas, etc. I think I remember reading that some growers use humidifying systems to combat really low ambient humidity. If you look at my 4th picture, according to my old La Cross Wather Station, the humidity today in my bedroom, is a mere 37%. And I can assure you that this is a few mm HG above what it usually is. My closet is in the bedroom, but is actually almost always a couple of points lower than the rest of the bedroom, presumably because I leave the doors closed. Also, without any heat on, and its NOT AC weather yet, my bedroom is almost 80 degrees Farrenheight, while my closet is about 1-2 degrees higher. That probably isn't ideal for fruiting either.

Now the first picture just shows my basic n00b setup, which consists of two SGFCs, one from a 70 Quart Sterilite box and the other from the 30 Quart model. Note that I was meticulous about the holes, almost to the point of being anal. lol I even took a tape measure and a sharpie and marked off 2" distances between every hole in all directions, to make sure I drilled enough. I used more than enough perlite. Additionally, I mist my cakes regularly, too much probably, but I am dialing that back. Note also that my stalling cakes may, in fact be nothing more than over-misting, or as someone suggested in my thread, the cakes may not be stalled, but resting. Anyway, I decided to try an experiment for the benefit of the community, and am using my 24 stalled or resting cakes as guinea pigs.

My hypothesis, as n00b and uninformed as it may be, is that in my home, in the absence of any external humidifying apparatus, the ambient conditions (outside the SGFCs) are simply not ideal for fruiting. So I was considering investing in a humidifier, which I am still thinking about for the future. But for now, my lay evaluation is that its possible that the Perlite in my 2 SGFCs is simply drying out much faster than it would in other conditions of higher ambient humidity or the presence of artificial humidification. Now I want to digress for a moment and say that this thought actually occurred to me when I first started putting my birthed cakes in these terrariums, and I actually took pre-emptive steps. More on that in a second.

Just a little while ago I grabbed a measuring cup and kept filling it in the kitchen in 2 cup (16 ounce) increments. The intent was, instead of misting and/or fanning, that I would irrigate the perlite itself, and NOT the cakes directly. I poured water, trying my best to stream it a little on the slow side. I poured between all the cakes that had decent sized spaces of "white" perlite showing. I already knew that to try this experiment properly, I was going to have to pour a lot more water in than I believe the perlite wanted to accept and "hold" between all of the millions of little nooks and crannies and spaces between the tiny pieces. So, with that in mind, I covered the carpet below those SGFC's with newspapers, to absorb any spillage or splashing, and I put a metal bowl underneath wherever the water was leaking out, which I assumed was somewhat of a saturation point for all that perlite. I don't want my carpets to get mildewy obviously, so I kept the carpet as dry as possible with the newspapers. I started with the bigger tub, which holds more water and more perlite, and slowly poured/streamed water into all the spaces until water started leaking out. I waited until it stopped leaking. I then started pouring more into the some of the spaces I may have missed during my first pass. When water started leaking again, I stopped, put one, sometimes two bowls, below to catch the excess. Then I poured more water in, and did the same thing. I did this three or four times, then did the same rinse & repeat in the 30 Quart tub. Long story short, the big tub ended up taking about 6 cups of water. That's 48 fluid ounces, and all told, it only returned/spilled about a cup of excess water! The smaller SGFC took and spilled proportionally less. I will watch these terrariums over the next few days to see if they start fruiting again sooner rather than later.

***Note: For the sake of intellectual honest, I will say right now that even if my cakes magically start fruiting tomorrow, this does NOT prove my assertion correct. Not even close. Because anyone who wanted to call me on making such a claim could rightly say that for all I know those cakes were about to start fruiting aggressively anyway, and for a variety of reasons, it has nothing to do with the actions I just took. So this is 100% just a lay-person's hypothesis, no more no less. But if I am right, and this ends up being a way to deal with the complaints a lot of people have been making about the old school SGFC, then great. :mushroom2:

Edit: Also something you may want to take with a grain of salt is that I am using three cheap hygrometers in both those SGFCs. While I know they aren't very accurate, I will say this: for the past two weeks, they have ALL been reading humidity inside the terrariums of as low 80 degrees, sometimes a little lower. 30 minutes after I did this, all three are now reading in the low 90's again, like they were consistently a few weeks ago. Again, this proves NOTHING, since these aren't accurate at all. But I find it interesting that all three of them (two in the large box) almost immediately went north of 90's to within a mere 1 degree +/- of one another! Again, not even close to being proof, but it did make me a little excited nonetheless.

Edit 2: I forgot to mention that for as long as I continue to use these SGFCs for this grow, I am going to irrigate the perlite in both of them every day. The saturation point if I do it every day should be about 1/2 cup for the large one, and 1/4 for the smaller one. At least it was a few weeks ago, when I first came up with this hair-brained scheme. For some reason I stopped irrigating the Perlite about 3 weeks ago when I started harvesting. I guess I just forgot about it when I was so excited by the newfound bounty of my shrooms! lol









Edited by LSA Woodrose (04/28/20 06:25 PM)


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OfflineSockadin
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LSA Woodrose] * 3
    #26635029 - 04/28/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Wow that was alot.
Yeah basically you hit the nail on the head. Your outside RH is more important than the RH inside the tub. I have been arguing this point for a while.

Cool test. Can't wait to see the results.

Also I would say you have a pretty advanced understanding of this hobby already because.

1. You follow the Teks.
2. You question everything.

Those are the keys to learning. Follow and then test.

Most people just read a TEK and then insert their own bias and fail.


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: Sockadin]
    #26635068 - 04/28/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Wow that was alot.




Yeah lol sorry about that, brother! I wanted to err on the side of a lot of detail, just in case, while groping in the dark of inexperience here, I accidentally stumbled onto something that turns out to be true! So if it is accurate, then the detail I would assume will be helpful.


Quote:

Sockadin said:
Yeah basically you hit the nail on the head. Your outside RH is more important than the RH inside the tub. I have been arguing this point for a while.




I think you and Mateah were both saying this, and if I'm not mistaken, its why he came up with his posts about HC as well as the one he invented, which is the Water HC. I am really starting to think that you and he may be 100% correct. It may have even the posts from you two about this that led me to come up with this little scheme of mine.

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Cool test. Can't wait to see the results.




You and me both! I will report back results here in this thread.

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Also I would say you have a pretty advanced understanding of this hobby already because.

1. You follow the Teks.
2. You question everything.

Those are the keys to learning. Follow and then test.

Most people just read a TEK and then insert their own bias and fail.




Thank you, brother! :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LSA Woodrose] * 1
    #26635614 - 04/28/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I see u put a lot of effort into this thinking. I like that :awehigh:

The main issue with the SGFC is that is dries out too quick. I use a modified SGFC which only has holes on 5 sides (the lid is left intact) and it does quite well. My next SGFC im trying 4 sides only (top and bottom in tact).


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #26635704 - 04/29/20 12:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Have ppl tried going with smaller holes?  1/4” just seems too big... especially if it’s drying out regularly.. with a 1/16” bit you don’t have to heat the plastic up, it just zips right through.  Drilling a lot of them is no big deal.  Haven’t tried the 1/8” yet.

Faht


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #26635706 - 04/29/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I havent tried 1/8". It might be too small. 3/16" may be a sweet spot thou.

Faht, do u think drilling holes on the bottom of the chamber is benefical?


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #26635717 - 04/29/20 12:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well I’ve never done sgfc but the idea that it helps evaporation seems like a solid one.. makes sense to me. I usually had a lot of cakes in my FC, so they stayed pretty humid just from the cakes themselves.. my tubs definitely could have used more FAE back in the day tho.

That pic I showed of the PE cakes had a bunch of 1/16” holes drilled in it, but nowhere near the amount a sgfc calls for.


If you zoom in on that you can see there’s maybe 12-15 on each long side and a few on the short.  I didn’t put any on the bottom, but that’s just because I may use the tub for other grows than cakes and didn’t want it to be just a cake bin.  I also used a press n seal lid with needle holes every 2” or so so there’s a lot of FAE from that

Faht


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: fahtster] * 1
    #26635722 - 04/29/20 12:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Very cool.

My next SGFC, i doing a minimal amount of holes. Only the four vertical sides and only near the top. I bet it would do well.


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #26635968 - 04/29/20 04:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Forget about the hygrometers. The only humidity that actually matters is at the surface level of the substrate, and it won't measure that.

You can fruit cakes in the open air if you were around to mist enough. Fruiting Chambers are just a balancing act, you want the most FAE you can allow for the least amount of work (misting).
RR experimented until he found what he decided is the best balance using this type of FC

Cakes are actually pretty tricky to dial in I think. They're fickle bastards :lol:

With larger substrates, like tubs, they're big enough to provide their own surface humidity without needing any extra misting (when you balance the FAE in their tubs).

With cakes, I prefer to simply fruit them right out the top of their jars. I just open a ziplock bag and set it down over the jar. I give them a misting if the surface looks dry.
The jar keeps the cake from drying out and the substrate can provide the surface humidity.


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: mushpunx] * 4
    #26636044 - 04/29/20 05:06 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I did a sgfc with 3/8 inch holes it worked awesome.

People always talk about their location. Indoor conditions are usually pretty dry and around 65-75f. The sgfc is made to deal with the dry indoor conditions. It was invented by RR so he could grow in winter on a mountain in Washington state in a dry ass wood fired home while being gone 8-10+ hours a day.

Stop measuring humidity. Chamber humidity does not matter much. Surface humidity on your cakes does but you can't measure that anyway. Chamber humidity can swing wildly from 50 to 80%


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26636050 - 04/29/20 05:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting. I will have to try out 3/8" holes next time :strokebeard:

Thanks Bodhi :thumbup:


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26636142 - 04/29/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting responses.

Something just occurred to me while reading about FAE after you guys mentioned it in a few posts above. Is it reasonable, without some form of air circulation system, to expect the necessary amount of FAE with two boxes, side by side, in a large closet, with the doors closed almost all of the time? I'll post a pic of my setup so you can see for yourselves whether or not I have enough "room" in that closet to allow for or facilitate FAE. Oh and just so you know, since it isn't apparent in that picture, there is at least 2" and in some cases 5" of space on every side of each of the SGFCs. So none of the sides are blocked by the proximity of the other SGFC, closet doors, or a wall. They sit on two sticks I put in there as makeshift "shelves" but that don't block the holes. Since the sticks are only about 1 in diameter, I was able to situate both terrariums so there was not a single hole on the bottom that is blocked.

Anyway, I have never read any cautionary tales on the web about how closets were too cramped, even with space on every single side of your SGFC. But it seems like it could be a viable concern. I know the common wisdom is NOT to fan your cakes, but it makes me wonder if I should start fanning again for this reason?



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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LSA Woodrose] * 1
    #26636146 - 04/29/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

i have always found its better to have fewer larger holes... u get way too much evaporation with tons of little ones.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: mushpunx]
    #26636188 - 04/29/20 07:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushpunx said:
Cakes are actually pretty tricky to dial in I think. They're fickle bastards :lol:



I find cakes to be the opposite of tricky and fickle when grown in environments that resemble their natural habitat rather than 'wildly swinging humidities' throughout the day. It's actually amazing how predictable their behavior can be when grown in more stabile climates.

Quote:

With larger substrates, like tubs, they're big enough to provide their own surface humidity without needing any extra misting




This sounds a lot closer to mimicking natural environment to me, I think thats why bulk subs in unmodified tubs are so successful.


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: Mateja]
    #26636209 - 04/29/20 07:38 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Makes sense, I see people say using double the normal amount of perlite helps a lot but adding water probably does the same thing.

I agree rh isn’t a huge deal, I was rocking 8% here the last two days and still haven’t needed to mist my tubs.

All about dialing your shit in.


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Edited by A.k.a (04/29/20 07:39 AM)


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: A.k.a]
    #26636217 - 04/29/20 07:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The idea of a SGFC is to help dial it in.

Woodrose. I fan my SGFC all the time. I don't remember anyone saying it isn't needed.

If you have central Heat and AC it will move air in and out of the closets. But if you don't, you might aim a fan at the closet once a day.


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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: Sockadin] * 3
    #26636277 - 04/29/20 08:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

The only way to increase FAE is to add more holes, crack the lid, etc.
FAE is passive, happening all the time thru the holes.
Whatever fanning accomplishes happens , will happen on its own thru the holes.


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Edited by mushpunx (04/29/20 08:52 AM)


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: Sockadin]
    #26636425 - 04/29/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
The idea of a SGFC is to help dial it in.

Woodrose. I fan my SGFC all the time. I don't remember anyone saying it isn't needed.




I have to go back through my thread, but there was definitely a presence in there, among some of the veteran posters on this forum, that were saying that fanning was a waste of time. Since I’m looking to try to revitalize the cakes in my two terrariums, I started fanning again as soon as I read your message. I just take the covers off, and I use one of the covers to fan for about a minute and 30 seconds. Is that enough if I do it once a day?


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: LSA Woodrose] * 1
    #26636532 - 04/29/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Fanning will only benefit you as an exercise.


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OfflineLSA Woodrose
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Re: Weakness of SGFC? I May Have Found a Workaround [Re: poisoned] * 2
    #26636555 - 04/29/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

poisoned said:
Fanning will only benefit you as an exercise.




lol

Although, let’s be honest. Fanning for a minute or two once a day, would only be exercise to a 95-year-old lady who has been sedentary for the last 30 years.


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