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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26635019 - 04/28/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
In the temple where I stayed in Jp, the insects were absolutely a part of everyday life, not just that but the Zendo Hall was designed in a half open and closed way - almost like those open shrines that have a roof over them but are open to nature besides some paper windows that are always usually open.  There would be bats flying through the hall, spiders, mosquitoes, and centi/millipedes and cicadas and wasps n bees and butterfly’s.  No one was bothered by it even a little despite Zazen taking up abt 5 hrs a day in the regular calander season and novices sleeping in there nightly.  It was beautiful and in line our true nature.  When in formal zazen they would sometimes crawl over you , but you’d just be aware of it and remain in non doing.

The norm was not kill them, but to simply blow them away or gently sweep them away if they were getting in the way of ones duties.  Also, after so many daily chants and after nighttime zazen- from 10pm-5am the  cicadas making their noises in mass started to sound just like when all the monks chanted our sutras.  It was highly trippy.

It was during my stay there that I came to understand why Pokémon was invented in Japan.  And the zen short story about the spider and the meditator with an X on his belly is on Point.


Blowing on them with your breath is a better way to deal with them then by smacking them away or kicking them or smashing etc.




I don't know about true nature nonsense but I love insects. As a kid I used to squash them, now I have a bug jar to catch ones that get in and let them outside.


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As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26635107 - 04/28/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I think some bugs are very smart. There are wasps nearby my house every year and I have never been stung. They will just buzz around more curious than anything. Or maybe they can pick up I have no malicious intent :shrug:


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26635118 - 04/28/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
I think some bugs are very smart. There are wasps nearby my house every year and I have never been stung. They will just buzz around more curious than anything. Or maybe they can pick up I have no malicious intent :shrug:




That's not it, as long as you don't go near the hive you're fine. Also it depends on the species of wasp. Some are quite aggressive with very painful stings, though that's mostly in arid climates or rain forests.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26635121 - 04/28/20 06:49 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Mine aren't aggressive, I can walk and have them bounce off of me and they have never stung me :p (dont get me wrong I NEVER purposefully test this it has just happened before lol)


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Offlineblessed


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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26635142 - 04/28/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I've got bugs in my house, so I've got to be careful what I say :grin:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: blessed]
    #26635146 - 04/28/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

flies dont feel anything at all


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Invisible1234go
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26635147 - 04/28/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Or maybe they can pick up I have no malicious intent :shrug:




That's not it





You don't know that for a fact.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26635547 - 04/28/20 10:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
What?  They can feel pressure, cold, heat - temperature etc etc.  what are you on about?



Right but not pain, organisms can be weird like that. I mean they more than make up for it with sheer numbers. Usually not feeling pain is a disadvantage


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26635995 - 04/29/20 04:34 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that an organism responds to external stimuli does not mean it feela anything. I have plants that move very quickly in response to touch and repositioning. Bacteria respond to all sorts of chemical and electromagnetic signals. I personally suspect that neither of those organisms feels anything.


The presence of chemical receptors that correspond to the ones we use are not what is important here. It is the structure of the brain. I personally believe that most animal life forms do not experience pain. Even if flies do have "experiences", they dont remember them from moment to moment, because they will continually try to the the same hopeless tasks. They are just little chemical drones.


Larger animals definitely feel pain. Once you get to elephants and other primates and such the pain levels are probably not so much less than they are in humans


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: morrowasted]
    #26636028 - 04/29/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Response to the environment doesn’t necessarily equate with pain, but it’s responsive non the less.  Humans do things just as stupid as bugs hitting themselves over and over.  The jury on insects is in favor of the verdict of no pain - at least not as higher evolved life forms experience it- but I’d venture that it’s somewhere between what we think is pain and what we feel as pain.  I’m referring to responses such as putting ones hand over a fire-  the response or reflex moves ones hand away from it, and pain is afterwards. 

But that doesn’t negate the latter.  Do I think a bug gets a headache, no comment.  Do a think a a bumble bee getting its wings and pincers ripped off and surviving feels pain, I’m not certain beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I’d rather act and behave like it does regardless.

If you couldn’t feel pain - due to a condition , would it be okay for me to continually hold your hand over a fire?  Or if trents anus could feel the plunge of a strangers cock? Would it be okay to seize the day of his anus over and over?

That depends on Trent.

Basic survival instincts.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (04/29/20 04:54 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26636041 - 04/29/20 05:05 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Do mosquitoes go nuts by their own annoying buzzing? :crazy2:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26636046 - 04/29/20 05:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I dont go around intentionally killing anything. Hell i even let roaches go. They dont bother me.


I took a whole course about brain development and its philosophical implications in undergrad. A lot of people have looked into the question of how pain is experienced. The conscious perception of pain in mammals requires signals to be relayed from the thalamus to the cortex. No cortex, no experience of pain- but the peoples bodies still react to it, if they are not on a drug to paralyze them as well. In many animals that nociceptive signal goes straight from their equivalent of the thalamus to activate the autonomic nervous system.

The tentative conclusion of the class was that all mammals feel pain, reptiles feel less pain but some, fish vary in how much pain they feel depending on their brains, and things like flies probably "feel" nothing, including pain.


A decent illustration might be this: patients in the hospital are anesthetized constantly. We do procedures that cause massive pain, but they feel little to nothing, because we basically shut off the part of their cortex that receives those signals for a while.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: morrowasted]
    #26636056 - 04/29/20 05:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Right.  That’s part of the wonder and utility of drugs.  Imagine all the procedures and surgeries that can be done today if they were tried exactly the same way but without drugs.  Yikes.

The last few millennia’s  of human history were savage by comparison.

People knock opiates because of the troubles caused be their abuse, but can you imagine how much of a godsend they would have been in eras without modernities cornucopia of treasures?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Do bugs get headaches? [Re: morrowasted]
    #26636060 - 04/29/20 05:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Another way to look it pain signaling is that first it developed simply as a reactive defense mechanism, but that cortical structures that allow for experience and memory allow us to learn from pain and avoid it in the future.

A venus fly trap will respond instantly to the right stimulus. It is larger than a fly. What good reasons do we have to believe that fly traps feel nothing? We have to dig into the biological details


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