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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK 7
#26632628 - 04/27/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Apparently, most people do not know the correct way of getting the water content of the substrate to the proper level. Once done you will be able to reproduce bags with the proper moisture content in minutes. All your bags will be consistent and produce great mushrooms.
(The quick way to figure out water content is at the very bottom of this post. Still read this to understand what is going on)
There are two ways of getting the proper water content. They are as follows...
My preferred method is to use a ZJ-LCD-M flow meter. It would take a long time to do 100 bags weighing out the water for each bag...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Water-Diesel-Fuel-Oil-Flow-Meter-LCD-Display-Flow-Sensor-Solenoid-US/362907177094?hash=item547ef41086:g:rx8AAOSwnYVePRvr
The other way is to weigh out your water. Weighing out the water is more time consuming but it is possible. You will follow all of these steps the only difference is you will weigh out the water instead of pressing a button and having the correct amount of water dispensed by the flow meter.
This method can be used with any supplements that you would like to use in your substrate. The important thing is to make sure all your supplements are in the bag and measured out properly each time or the bags will not be consistent.
I grow oysters so I use soy hulls $5 for 50 lbs and fuel pellets $5 for 40 lbs. Soy hulls and fuel pellets will give you the biggest flushes and are by far the quickest and easiest to use.
I do 11 lb bags. If you want 5.5 lb bags cut the weights in half.
We need to be able to put the correct weights in the bag so what I did is I took a piece of 4 inch PVC and cut it at 8 inches. I put a 4-inch flat cap on the 8 inch PVC. I then weighed out 2.4 Lbs of fuel pellets (2.4 is because I use 11 lb bags). I poured the fuel pellets into the PVC with the cap on it. Level out the pellets and mark a line at the top of the pellets. Cut the PVC off at the line and put some sort of handle on the PVC. Now put 1 scoop of fuel pellets in a bag and one scoop of soy hulls. This gives you a 50/50 mixture of soy hulls and fuel pellets. Using the PVC makes it quick, easy, and consistent enough.
Now weigh out (1 gallon) 8.34 pounds of water. Add about half the water to the bag of soy hulls and fuel pellets and let it sit for about 10 minutes. Break up any fuel or soy hulls the best you can. Add more water until you can take a handful and squeeze hard and water pools around your finger but no drips. Now put your bag in the PC and PC it for 2 hours. this will cause the soy and fuel pellets to break up better. Once cooled add water from the 1 gallon that you weighed out until you get the same water pool around your fingers but no drips.
Now take a bowl and place it on your scale tear off the weight of the bowl so the scale reads 0. Place 100 grams of the substrate you just made in the bowl. (if you have a scale that shuts off after a certain amount of time you will need to write down the weight of the bowl to subtract it later.)
1. Place a small glass of water in the microwave along with the bowl and substrate. Run the microwave for 3 minutes on the defrost mode. (The water in the cup will keep you from blowing up your microwave)
2. Remove the bowl and weigh it. It should have lost 4 or 5 grams of weight.
3. Place the bowl back in the microwave and run it for 1 minute on defrost mode. Remove the bowl and weigh it again. Repeat this step until there is only a little change in weight. This means the sample is dry.
4. Weigh the substrate in the bowl 1 last time and write down the weight.
5. subtract the dry weight of the substrate from the original sample wet weight of 100 grams. The number you have after subtracting is the percentage of water that is in your substrate.
You want 60% water content for mushrooms. If you have less than 60% pour some water from the 1 gallon you weighed at the beginning into the bag and start again with drying out in the microwave.
Once you have 60% water content. Weigh the leftover water from the 1 gallon you started with. Whatever number you get after subtracting will need to be subtracted from 8.34 lbs the original weight of water you started with. This will give you a new number for the weight of water that needs to be added to each bag to get 60% water content.
Last but not least here are the weights that I use. Remember that depending on your brand of fuel pellets and your brand of soy hulls these may be right or may be wrong. Every brand of soy hulls and fuel pellets have a different amount of water content.
Just to be clear I have changed some things on my flow meter so I can not give you the liters I used. Although my flow meter is consistent in putting out the same amount of water every time it is not accurate in the number of liters. I am not sure if it was accurate in the beginning or not. So match it up by weight not by liters. Because I am afraid they may not all read the same and it is better to be safe than to be sorry.
5.5 lb bags...
1.2 lbs soy hulls (One point Two LBS) 1.2 lbs fuel pellets (One point Two LBS) 3 lbs water (Three LBS)
11 lb bags...
2.4 lbs soy hulls (Two point Four LBS) 2.4 lbs fuel pellets (Two point Four LBS) 6 lbs water (Six LBS)
The desiccator is not necessary we do not need to be that accurate.
I check my water content once every year. In three years I have not had to change the amount of water to get it to 60%. Actually my water content comes out to 62% (or 38 grams dry) but that is close enough.
For all future attempters of this tek. Running a microwave without some sort of moisture in it will damage the magnetron. Since we are trying to dry out the sub you will damage your microwave if you do not put some water in a cup with your sub. You may get away with running it dry for a while but it is damaging your microwave whether you realize it or not.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (03/18/21 11:08 AM)
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sendmehummus
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#26873972 - 08/10/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Excellent write up thanks man! Albeit just a tad confusing to read and make sense of some stuff but Im a hands on person so following step by step it will make more sense. One question. Does the location you store your pellets and hulls in make a huge difference after youve calculated your water content? Wouldn't a humid or dry storage room potentially alter the pellet content? Or is that negligible? Again, thanks for this I needed it.
-------------------- Be patient and keep it simple.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#26873993 - 08/10/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't do anything special to store my pellets. I store them in my garage. They should be in a plastic bag so they should stay close to the same moisture content. Sorry for any confusing parts. I don't guess I am very good at writing things like this up.
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sendmehummus
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#26873999 - 08/10/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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No you did an awesome job! I think Im just frazzled from nonstop research and information for the last few days and stressing out with my grow. My brain is goop, Ill read it again tomorrow and it will likely make perfect sense 👍.
-------------------- Be patient and keep it simple.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#26874057 - 08/10/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you need help just PM me. I will help if I know the answer.
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rm1024
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#27215669 - 02/19/21 08:39 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Man, killer post as always. This is exactly the information I was looking for (as are most of your threads). Nothing to add, just wanted to say thanks!
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rm1024
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#27215859 - 02/19/21 11:14 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Gave it a good read over and it makes perfect sense to me brother! Just one quick quesiton, i'm having trouble coming up in my mind with an efficient alternative to using a microwave - we dont have them and dont use them, but I suppose it might be worthwhile if just for the hobby... am I missing any ideas?
Thanks again for always having really good information
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: rm1024] 1
#27215895 - 02/20/21 12:25 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
rm1024 said: Man, killer post as always. This is exactly the information I was looking for (as are most of your threads). Nothing to add, just wanted to say thanks!
rm1024 thanks for the encouraging words. I am happy it helped you out!!
Quote:
rm1024 said: Gave it a good read over and it makes perfect sense to me brother! Just one quick quesiton, i'm having trouble coming up in my mind with an efficient alternative to using a microwave - we dont have them and dont use them, but I suppose it might be worthwhile if just for the hobby... am I missing any ideas?
Thanks again for always having really good information
If I didn't have a microwave. I would either use the oven or an old pan. DO NOT AND I REPEAT DO NOT USE THE WIFES COOKWARE!! Just make sure you do not burn the sub all you have to is dry the sub. I would just use an old pan on top of the stove and keep stirring it. You will figure it out once you try it a couple of times I am sure. I don't think I would buy a microwave unless I bought it just to figure out the water content then returned it and got my money back.
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Guerrilla
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK *DELETED* [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#27255937 - 03/16/21 05:33 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Guerrilla
Reason for deletion: .
Edited by Guerrilla (03/17/21 03:48 AM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: Guerrilla] 1
#27257693 - 03/17/21 04:02 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You did not follow the tek you have to put a cup of water in the microwave with your sub. You were warned in the tek, not my fault you can't follow instructions.
Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said:
1. Place a small glass of water in the microwave along with the bowl and substrate. Run the microwave for 3 minutes on the defrost mode. (The water in the cup will keep you from blowing up your microwave)
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (03/17/21 04:07 PM)
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sendmehummus
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: Guerrilla] 1
#27257705 - 03/17/21 04:08 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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You changed your post several times. At one point your babys age even changed.., mushroom growing is a science. When someone writes up a good Tek it could be excellent and still fail for a small percentage of people who try it. Nothing is foolproof when it comes to growing mushrooms at home. You always take a chance. Heres some advice, dont try experiments with essential household appliances. Especially if the result of that experiment failing means you cant feed your infant. Why not try the preferred method using a flow meter?
-------------------- Be patient and keep it simple.
Edited by sendmehummus (03/18/21 01:36 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#27257733 - 03/17/21 04:20 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have not even looked at this post in 9 months. I have not changed anything. You did not read it and you messed up. But you want to blame me for your mess up. You were warned. I only changed this post just now to make people pay closer attention. But it has been there since I made the post I am sorry you had a hard time reading it. But if you would have read it you would not have had a problem.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#27257754 - 03/17/21 04:29 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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I hate that you broke your microwave but I will give you a hint there is a way to get the exact same microwave replaced for free if you just think about it and buy one and keep the receipt to take it back. They are not hard to take apart and you will have the old case but a new microwave.
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sendmehummus
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#27257970 - 03/17/21 07:06 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Um I was replying to guerilla not you shroom.
-------------------- Be patient and keep it simple.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#27258029 - 03/17/21 08:01 PM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Whoa.
Not to play devil's advocate or anything...butt, I've used a similar technique since I've started, only difference is I never used a bowl of h20 nor defrost mode..for the last year n change. In fairness I never knew the risks of NOT doing so,other than possibly burning substrate, which is mitigated by short cycles + stirring.
I gotta say tho, I'm not defending the actual tek, mostly because it seems safer + more reliable than what I've been doing. That being said, I'd have to defend the man who wrote it and put the blame more on operator or equipment malfunction!
SHROOMS simply provided an easy to understand description of a tried and true method. Attacking him out of frustration seems a little excessive, especially in multiple forums..
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#27258724 - 03/18/21 11:05 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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sendmehummus, Yea I figured out you were not talking to me after I posted.
For all future attempters of this tek. Running a microwave without some sort of moisture in it will damage the magnetron. Since we are trying to dry out the sub you will damage your microwave if you do not put some water in a cup with your sub. You may get away with running it dry for a while but it is damaging your microwave whether you realize it or not.
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Guerrilla
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK *DELETED* [Re: sendmehummus] 1
#27259847 - 03/19/21 02:52 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Guerrilla
Reason for deletion: .
Edited by Guerrilla (03/19/21 03:05 AM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: Guerrilla] 1
#27260295 - 03/19/21 11:23 AM (2 years, 10 months ago) |
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Then your microwave was just on its last legs and would have died no matter what you were cooking.
Look I am not trying to call you retarded or anything like that. But if you followed the tek it was just your microwave was going to dye either way. If you can tell me what you think the tek did that caused the problem. I will remove the tek. I certainly would rather remove the tek than have another unfortunate microwave breakdown. With water in the microwave, there is no chance that the tek was the problem. 100's of people have praised the tek You are the only one that has had a problem. But microwaves do die or you would get a lifetime guarantee with it.
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ninja cat 09
A paranoid android



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01] 1
#27309894 - 05/15/21 01:55 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe this is a stupid question, but since nobody else asked, why not just weigh out your substrate dry and add the 60% in water by weight? Your numbers are around 55% water and 45% substrate, so I'm guessing it'll vary a slight amount depending on the sub, supplements, etc. but just weighing it out, PCing, then squeezing to see if you got it too wet or too dry seems like a lot less hassle than adding water, checking humidity content by hand, PCing, checking again, adding water and then drying out the sub to get the number you know you need from the start. Am I missing something?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: ninja cat 09] 1
#27310130 - 05/15/21 05:23 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Different sub hold different amounts of water. This shows you how to figure out the water content no matter what sub you are using. I showed how to do it with fuel pellets and soy hulls. Because that is what I am using at the moment. But it will work with anything you decide you want to use.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (05/15/21 08:50 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27310388 - 05/15/21 08:51 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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60% water by weight does not equal 60% moisture content. You are compairing apples to oranges. You must dry out the sub to know how much water is in it.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27312408 - 05/17/21 10:51 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ahh, that's probably what I was missing. Thanks!
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: ninja cat 09] 1
#27312625 - 05/17/21 02:09 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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You will get much better results once you have your water content figured out and no more questioning if you had too much water. Once you do this if you are having problems you can look elsewhere, because you will know it is not your water content. It is easy if you start with 100 grams. If you lose 60 grams of weight after drying you have 60% water content.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27312791 - 05/17/21 04:54 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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You're contradicting yourself though, in your last comment you said that 60% water by weight does not equal 60% moisture content and here you are. How do I lose 60% water from drying if I didn't add that in the first place? Or if I added more?
Not trying to grill you, just don't understand the logic.
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: ninja cat 09]
#27312819 - 05/17/21 05:23 PM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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You have moisture content in the fuel pellet and in any other thing you are using in the sub that has to be accounted for. If you just weigh out say fuel pellets and then add 60% water you are not accounting for the water that was in the fuel pellets, to begin with. Doing the test will assure you of what the water content is because you are accounting for all the water that is in the sub.
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ninja cat 09
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27313519 - 05/18/21 09:19 AM (2 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ahh, great! Thanks!
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fungilove
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27323672 - 05/26/21 09:05 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you for a wonderful tek! I am wondering why first mix sub and add water and then microwave and not just take the dry soy and fuel pellets and microwave them, seeing how much water it contains and then minus it from the 60% water you would add to the sub?
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fungilove
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: ninja cat 09]
#27371153 - 07/02/21 12:28 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also, in addition to my previous question, can you use a dehydrator instead of a microwave?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: fungilove]
#27371941 - 07/02/21 04:39 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is just easier to add the water and then dehydrate the sub and then you know for sure what percentage you have.
Sure you could use a dehydrator but a microwave is quicker. I don't want to take days to test. you could use an oven also. Maybe even the top of the stove if you are careful and don't burn the sub.
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fungilove
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27373435 - 07/04/21 12:13 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for replying. I just happen to have a powerful dehydrator not no MW. But I can't see what benefit there is in first hydrating it and then drying instead of just putting in the pellets and see how much they go down in weight. I just tried with the HWFP and it dropped 5% which seems very much. I putting in 20g worth and and it is now 19g.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: fungilove]
#27373496 - 07/04/21 02:33 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have a 10 tray Excalibur dehydrator but I wouldn't try using it for this. This is just how I do it if you want to do it another way go for it. I know that you get good results using the method I showed you any other way may work just as well and it may not. I am never going to do it any other way, so I will not put much thought into it. You only have to do this once to get your recipe so I really don't see the big deal.
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27373500 - 07/04/21 02:39 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Do this. Make the sub the way you want to so you think you have 60% water content. Then take 100 grams and dehydrate it in the microwave and see if you actually have 60% water content. If you do report back here so people know the results. Just be honest because people are relying on truthful information here.
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fungilove
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#27373896 - 07/04/21 11:55 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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>> and dehydrate it in the microwave Did you mean in the dehydrator?
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28004548 - 10/18/22 11:24 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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If I were using just straight HWFP and not supplementing with any soy hulls or bran, would it just be 2.4 lbs HWFP to 3 lbs water?
Thanks.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#28004584 - 10/18/22 11:56 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You don't know if the 3 gallons of water is right, to begin with. You need to do the test. This test is done to eliminate a problem from the equation. Once you do the test you will not have to guess what your water content is. You can just forget about worrying over the water content of your sub. You will know without a doubt that you have 60% water content. Now if you have a problem you can look elsewhere because your water content is correct. You can spend an hour to test or you can wait two weeks and then when it won't colonize you can guess if it's the water content. is it bad spawn or is it...? Do you think an hour is a long time for the test? Well wait 2 weeks and don't have your spawn colonize because it is too wet or too dry. Then see how that hour sounds!! Because you know that you have 60% water content in the sub you will know it has enough moisture to maximize your harvest!!
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28005506 - 10/18/22 08:48 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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OK. I see what you're saying.
A dehydrator would work just as well as a microwave, wouldn't it? I only ask because I have one sitting out already from another project.
Also, you're doing 3 lbs of water to 2.4 lbs of substrate...
3/(3 + 1.2 +1.2) =55.555%. Is that because your unhydrated substrate has a moisture content of 4.444% so that 3lbs gets it to 60%?
Edited by Baby_Hitler (10/18/22 09:04 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#28005709 - 10/19/22 12:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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My friend, you are using way too much thought process on this. All I can say for sure is that it works. I use it as a tool just like a pair of pliers. I don't worry about why the bolt is placed at that specific pivot point to make the pliers work. I just use the pliers and get the job done. I will put it this way there is a reason people much smarter than you or I use this method and don't use weights. Am I smart enough to tell them they are wrong and give them a reason why they are wrong? I think not. So I will just go with the way the scientists do it and not try and figure out why they do it this way.
I am sure a dehydrator will work but it will take much longer. Anyway, you can dry the sub without burning it will work. It's just a question of how long it's going to take.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (10/19/22 01:06 AM)
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28006063 - 10/19/22 08:47 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Duskwander666
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28090121 - 12/09/22 10:22 AM (1 year, 1 month ago) |
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Cool
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28186601 - 02/14/23 02:14 AM (11 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Different sub hold different amounts of water. This shows you how to figure out the water content no matter what sub you are using. I showed how to do it with fuel pellets and soy hulls. Because that is what I am using at the moment. But it will work with anything you decide you want to use.
May I ask why you don't take the pre-hydrated fuel pellets and soy hulls and give them the microwave treatment to determine how much moisture they have, and then add the right amount of water accordingly to hit the desired 60%?
Also, is 60% recommended regardless of the species or type of substrate being hydrated? (Ie, would you recommend 60% water for a CVG recipe also?) Is 60% also ideal for grain spawn? I've been hydrating my rye and milo to about 40%, but have noticed that mycelium will colonize it as low as 28% and as high as 52%, but much more slowly at the extreme dry/wet.
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28187406 - 02/14/23 05:13 PM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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I have never heard of any species using anything other than 60%. Anyway, 60% is definitely correct for most.
I am just showing the proper way to know what your sub-moisture content is. If you want to adjust it you can. My question to you is this...
Is it worth an hour of your time to do it right and know what you have and be confident you know that your sub-moisture content is correct? I do not have a science degree and I am guessing nor do you to know what you are actually changing and how it affects the results. Come on it is an hour at the most. I choose to do it properly and not worry about it. But feel free to do it anyway you feel is good enough.
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28187945 - 02/14/23 11:22 PM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I have never heard of any species using anything other than 60%. Anyway, 60% is definitely correct for most.
I am just showing the proper way to know what your sub-moisture content is. If you want to adjust it you can. My question to you is this...
Is it worth an hour of your time to do it right and know what you have and be confident you know that your sub-moisture content is correct? I do not have a science degree and I am guessing nor do you to know what you are actually changing and how it affects the results. Come on it is an hour at the most. I choose to do it properly and not worry about it. But feel free to do it anyway you feel is good enough.
It seems I've unintentionally come off as antagonistic, which was not my intention at all. I was just wondering why you recommend measuring the moisture level *after* you've already added water versus measuring it before adding water. To your credit, your measurement methodology is very close to how most commercial laboratories measure moisture content (cannabis and agriculture/botany labs, at least), so science degrees aren't really relevant.
In any case, I'm just a novice at the beginning of the mushroom cultivation path so all this is new to me. Your 60% moisture figure is incredibly useful, as I've spent a lot of time comparing too many different "Teks" in an attempt to determine what "field capacity" quantitatively and your number confirms my findings. It was really annoying because a lot of people give instructions volumetrically which means I have to make assumptions that might not be correct to approximate what the moisture content is.
Would you also recommend hydrating grain spawn to 60%? I hydrated one batch of rye to 58% a few months ago and it took over a month to colonize, but at this point I'm not sure the delay was due to the moisture content, or if it was caused by another error I made.
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28188010 - 02/15/23 01:13 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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I didn't think you were antagonistic. I just try to explain it as thoroughly as possible because people may read this in the future and it may help if it is said more clearly.
I am not sure what grain you are using. I use whole oats or a mixture of whole oats and millet 50/50 by weight. Whole oats are cheap so that is what I would suggest you use. I just soak the grain in water for 24 hours then I PC to sterilize.
As far as field capacity goes that only works for certain subs like coco coir. If you do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you will have way too much water in your sub. If you must do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you don't want any drops you just want water to pool around your fingers when you squeeze hard but again no drips.
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28188020 - 02/15/23 01:44 AM (11 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: I didn't think you were antagonistic. I just try to explain it as thoroughly as possible because people may read this in the future and it may help if it is said more clearly.
I am not sure what grain you are using. I use whole oats or a mixture of whole oats and millet 50/50 by weight. Whole oats are cheap so that is what I would suggest you use. I just soak the grain in water for 24 hours then I PC to sterilize.
As far as field capacity goes that only works for certain subs like coco coir. If you do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you will have way too much water in your sub. If you must do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you don't want any drops you just want water to pool around your fingers when you squeeze hard but again no drips.
Thanks for the recommendation. Currently I use Rye and Red Milo. I've been recording the weights of all my grain and keeping track of how much water I add. So far, both the rye and milo seem to readily accept 40% water (60g grain + 40g water), and google says rye and milo average between 8-14% water, so I've been assuming that my grain is about 10% water without testing, which would effectively mean my grain is actually ~46% water over the 40% I added. What % moisture levels are you using for your oat/millet mix?
Many people recommend millet because of the additional inoculation points the small grain size offers, so I've been playing with combinations of rye/milo as well but for some reason 100% milo has been better for me than 50/50 blends. I also have been wondering what the lower limit of the idea of smaller grain size = better due to more inoculation points is; for example, wouldn't grass seed be even better because it makes millet look big by comparison?
Again, thanks for making this information available. The squeeze test for field capacity is so difficult for a beginner with zero prior knowledge as there is too much uncertainty given all the different water holding capacity of various substrates and even a "firm squeeze" can vary between individuals. Working off of a scale and concrete numbers makes me feel much better, until I have enough experience to go off of vague tests like squeezing the substrate.
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
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JayGee007
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28203448 - 02/25/23 02:01 AM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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Thank you. Excellent.
-------------------- Thank you for your help.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: JayGee007]
#28203996 - 02/25/23 12:03 PM (10 months, 27 days ago) |
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You are welcome. I am glade it helps!
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28208148 - 02/28/23 12:56 PM (10 months, 24 days ago) |
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Hey, I just wanted to double check with you about the 60% figure -- I know you are recommending 60% in no uncertain terms for substrate, but when you brought up your grain of choice (50/50 whole oats/millet) was that also a recommendation to hydrate grain spawn to 60% as well?
I was just reading Paul Stamet's book on cultivating medicinal and gourmet mushrooms where he also writes the optimal moisture level for substrate is 60%, and he even goes as far as to say that 5% too high or low can cause mushrooms to completely fail to grow! This part is really confusing to me because many of the bucket teks for CVG followed exactly result in moisture levels of at least 70% to 83% (the ones I am referring to are PGT, BOD, YoshiAmano and Damion's coir bucket teks), and this figure only includes the added water, not any water already present in the coir. Clearly these guys are getting results, and many people have used their guides to great effect as well, so I'm either completely misunderstanding Staments' recommendations, or the information is outdated, or there is something else. Do you think the vermiculite is absorbing extra moisture over 60% to allow for an extra moisture buffer in the substrate?
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
Edited by nakadash1 (02/28/23 01:02 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28210264 - 03/01/23 08:52 PM (10 months, 22 days ago) |
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Different subs will hold varying amounts of water and allow mushrooms to colonize successfully. Coco coir will hold much more water than fuel pellets. I really don't worry about it. I know 60% will produce at least 2 flushes of mushrooms. I never do a second flush though because it would cost too much for me to get a 2nd flush plus the second flush will not look as good as the first. If you want me to explain more about why I don't do a second flush and why it does not make sense to do so let me know.
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28211211 - 03/02/23 03:47 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Different subs will hold varying amounts of water and allow mushrooms to colonize successfully. Coco coir will hold much more water than fuel pellets. I really don't worry about it. I know 60% will produce at least 2 flushes of mushrooms. I never do a second flush though because it would cost too much for me to get a 2nd flush plus the second flush will not look as good as the first. If you want me to explain more about why I don't do a second flush and why it does not make sense to do so let me know.
didn't know fuel pellets were inferior to coco in water holding capacity. I read coir holds 8-10x its weight in water, so I take it that most of the CVG teks are relatively conservative in how much water they use. Are you suggesting that higher moisture content = more flushes? I was under the impression people rehydrate between flushes so its surprising to know that the initial water content dictates the number of flushes.
I am curious as to what additional costs you incur for successive flushes, as I thought the only extra cost is the water it takes to rehydrate the blocks. I kind of just assumed that anybody flushing once was only doing so because of time/space constraints, or have so many good first flushes in the pipeline that it just doesn't make sense to even do the second flush for inferior fruits. Thanks for sharing!
**Edit: By the way, would you have any advice as to what to do with substrate after a first flush, other than just toss it? For example, would it be suitable to homogenize blocks and put them in a bucket to try to eke out a few fruits, or maybe bury in a hole covered with some mulch? Or perhaps even use it to try to colonize more spawn? It feels wrong to discard coco+vermiculite and half-decomposed grain because it seems like it would make wonderful soil for leafy plants.
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
Edited by nakadash1 (03/02/23 04:37 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28211426 - 03/02/23 06:21 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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The water dictates how many flushes you can get without rehydrating. I could bet two flushes with fuel pellets at 60% water content.
The reason it is not wise to do a second flush with a small space and I would argue it is not wise to do a second flush at all is as follows...
once you put blocks/bags into the fruiting chamber it will take them a week to fruit and harvest. I get an average of 2 lbs per block.
If I wait on a second flush I will be waiting an additional 2 weeks to get the second flush and the second flush will average about 1/2 of the 1st flush or about a pound. The pound you get off the second flush will not look nearly as good as the 1st flush.
So in 3 weeks, I would get a total of 3 lbs if I wait on a 2nd flush. If I put new bags in every week? I end up with double that amount 6lbs but it is double the amount of work also. 2nd flush mushrooms are harder to sell and do not demand as much.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28211439 - 03/02/23 06:27 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Are you using 5lb or 11lb blocks?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28211670 - 03/02/23 08:32 PM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?
Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?
The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28211914 - 03/03/23 12:20 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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I am doing 5 lb blocks. I was doing 12 lb blocks but I was not getting as much fruit from a 12 lb block as I do from two 5 lb blocks.
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SHROOMSISAY01
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28211937 - 03/03/23 12:48 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
nakadash1 said: Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?
Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?
The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...
You can't grow oysters in a mono tub you will end up growing all stip. Almost all edibles require too much FAE to be grown in a mono tub. If you are growing actives you are ok using a mono tub if you are growing edibles you can not grow them in a mono tub.
To grow mushrooms you need spawn usually a grain like rye berries or whole oats or millet. I use either a 50/50 combination of millet and whole oats or just whole oats. Whole oats for me are cheap and millet helps because they give you more inoculation points because they are so small.
Once you have colonized spawn you mix it with your sub in my case I use fuel pellets and soyhulls. You can also use fuel pellets and wheat bran. If you are not sterilizing just use fuel pellets. Once the spawn is mixed with the fuel pellets colonization starts and will take 10 to 14 days to fully colonize. Once the bag is colonized it will be white but you will not see any pins. Then you do not open the bag you just cut a slice in the bag trying not to lift the bag away from the sub. You only want the small slice to get fresh air. The pins will form where you sliced the bag and will lift the bag as they get bigger. Take a look at these pics they may help...
Pins starting...

Pins starting to develop...

Pins a little further along the way...

All that started from a slice in the bag and notice how the bag is being pushed up and out of the way.
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nakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28211997 - 03/03/23 04:30 AM (10 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Quote:
nakadash1 said: Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?
Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?
The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...
You can't grow oysters in a mono tub you will end up growing all stip. Almost all edibles require too much FAE to be grown in a mono tub. If you are growing actives you are ok using a mono tub if you are growing edibles you can not grow them in a mono tub.
To grow mushrooms you need spawn usually a grain like rye berries or whole oats or millet. I use either a 50/50 combination of millet and whole oats or just whole oats. Whole oats for me are cheap and millet helps because they give you more inoculation points because they are so small.
Once you have colonized spawn you mix it with your sub in my case I use fuel pellets and soyhulls. You can also use fuel pellets and wheat bran. If you are not sterilizing just use fuel pellets. Once the spawn is mixed with the fuel pellets colonization starts and will take 10 to 14 days to fully colonize. Once the bag is colonized it will be white but you will not see any pins. Then you do not open the bag you just cut a slice in the bag trying not to lift the bag away from the sub. You only want the small slice to get fresh air. The pins will form where you sliced the bag and will lift the bag as they get bigger. Take a look at these pics they may help...
Pins starting...

Pins starting to develop...

Pins a little further along the way...

All that started from a slice in the bag and notice how the bag is being pushed up and out of the way.
What type of mushrooms is that fruiting block pictured?
Thank you very much, I had no idea that edibles were not suitable for monotubs. I succesfully grew a grow kit block by cutting a slit and pointing a humidifier at it with great results, so I learned how to make the blocks and put them all in a tub with a humidifier expecting similar results. Big nope! Indeed they all grew stipey (Pink, Pearl, and King oysters) and only flushed once. I thought keeping the tub lid half open would be a lot of air flow, thanks for setting me straight.
I also spawned one block of GT in a filter bag which is looking like 30% colonized right now. Does your advice above apply only to edibles, or can I also wait until the actives block is fully colonized and slice the bag?
-------------------- #1 Tek With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission. Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place. I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain. With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch. Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of admiration. JK NO --Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
#28212700 - 03/03/23 03:54 PM (10 months, 20 days ago) |
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It has been 20 years since I grew actives and I don't want to give you bad advice. I personally would probably just remove the bag and sit it in a mono tub and let it fruit where ever. If you don't damage the bag you can use it again. I am assuming you used coco coir for the sub which holds more water so water can evaporate and give the mono tub humidity so the mushrooms will grow well. You want the water in the sub to evaporate unlike edibles because we are using fuel pellets which hold less water and if it evaporates the mushrooms will not develop properly.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,849
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#28218585 - 03/07/23 08:30 AM (10 months, 17 days ago) |
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That block is either Amycel 3015 or Aloha Medicinal Elma
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