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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28187406 - 02/14/23 05:13 PM (11 months, 6 days ago)

I have never heard of any species using anything other than 60%. Anyway, 60% is definitely correct for most.

I am just showing the proper way to know what your sub-moisture content is. If you want to adjust it you can. My question to you is this...

Is it worth an hour of your time to do it right and know what you have and be confident you know that your sub-moisture content is correct? I do not have a science degree and I am guessing nor do you to know what you are actually changing and how it affects the results. Come on it is an hour at the most. I choose to do it properly and not worry about it. But feel free to do it anyway you feel is good enough.


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Offlinenakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28187945 - 02/14/23 11:22 PM (11 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
I have never heard of any species using anything other than 60%. Anyway, 60% is definitely correct for most.

I am just showing the proper way to know what your sub-moisture content is. If you want to adjust it you can. My question to you is this...

Is it worth an hour of your time to do it right and know what you have and be confident you know that your sub-moisture content is correct? I do not have a science degree and I am guessing nor do you to know what you are actually changing and how it affects the results. Come on it is an hour at the most. I choose to do it properly and not worry about it. But feel free to do it anyway you feel is good enough.




It seems I've unintentionally come off as antagonistic, which was not my intention at all. I was just wondering why you recommend measuring the moisture level *after* you've already added water versus measuring it before adding water. To your credit, your measurement methodology is very close to how most commercial laboratories measure moisture content (cannabis and agriculture/botany labs, at least), so science degrees aren't really relevant.

In any case, I'm just a novice at the beginning of the mushroom cultivation path so all this is new to me. Your 60% moisture figure is incredibly useful, as I've spent a lot of time comparing too many different "Teks" in an attempt to determine what "field capacity" quantitatively and your number confirms my findings. It was really annoying because a lot of people give instructions volumetrically which means I have to make assumptions that might not be correct to approximate what the moisture content is.

Would you also recommend hydrating grain spawn to 60%? I hydrated one batch of rye to 58% a few months ago and it took over a month to colonize, but at this point I'm not sure the delay was due to the moisture content, or if it was caused by another error I made.


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28188010 - 02/15/23 01:13 AM (11 months, 6 days ago)

I didn't think you were antagonistic. I just try to explain it as thoroughly as possible because people may read this in the future and it may help if it is said more clearly.

I am not sure what grain you are using. I use whole oats or a mixture of whole oats and millet 50/50 by weight. Whole oats are cheap so that is what I would suggest you use. I just soak the grain in water for 24 hours then I PC to sterilize.

As far as field capacity goes that only works for certain subs like coco coir. If you do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you will have way too much water in your sub. If you must do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you don't want any drops you just want water to pool around your fingers when you squeeze hard but again no drips.


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Offlinenakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28188020 - 02/15/23 01:44 AM (11 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
I didn't think you were antagonistic. I just try to explain it as thoroughly as possible because people may read this in the future and it may help if it is said more clearly.

I am not sure what grain you are using. I use whole oats or a mixture of whole oats and millet 50/50 by weight. Whole oats are cheap so that is what I would suggest you use. I just soak the grain in water for 24 hours then I PC to sterilize.

As far as field capacity goes that only works for certain subs like coco coir. If you do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you will have way too much water in your sub. If you must do the squeeze test with fuel pellets you don't want any drops you just want water to pool around your fingers when you squeeze hard but again no drips.




Thanks for the recommendation. Currently I use Rye and Red Milo. I've been recording the weights of all my grain and keeping track of how much water I add. So far, both the rye and milo seem to readily accept 40% water (60g grain + 40g water), and google says rye and milo average between 8-14% water, so I've been assuming that my grain is about 10% water without testing, which would effectively mean my grain is actually ~46% water over the 40% I added. What % moisture levels are you using for your oat/millet mix?

Many people recommend millet because of the additional inoculation points the  small grain size offers, so I've been playing with combinations of rye/milo as well but for some reason 100% milo has been better for me than 50/50 blends. I also have been wondering what the lower limit of the idea of smaller grain size = better due to more inoculation points is; for example, wouldn't grass seed be even better because it makes millet look big by comparison?

Again, thanks for making this information available. The squeeze test for field capacity is so difficult for a beginner with zero prior knowledge as there is too much uncertainty given all the different water holding capacity of various substrates and even a "firm squeeze" can vary between individuals. Working off of a scale and concrete numbers makes me feel much better, until I have enough experience to go off of vague tests like squeezing the substrate.


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


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OfflineJayGee007
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28203448 - 02/25/23 02:01 AM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Thank you. Excellent.


--------------------
Thank you for your help.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: JayGee007]
    #28203996 - 02/25/23 12:03 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

You are welcome. I am glade it helps!


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Offlinenakadash1
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28208148 - 02/28/23 12:56 PM (10 months, 24 days ago)

Hey, I just wanted to double check with you about the 60% figure -- I know you  are recommending 60% in no uncertain terms for substrate, but when you brought up your grain of choice (50/50 whole oats/millet) was that also a recommendation to hydrate grain spawn to 60% as well?

I was just reading Paul Stamet's book on cultivating medicinal and gourmet mushrooms where he also writes the optimal moisture level for substrate is 60%, and he even goes as far as to say that 5% too high or low can cause mushrooms to completely fail to grow! This part is really confusing to me because many of the bucket teks for CVG followed exactly result in moisture levels of at least 70% to 83% (the ones I am referring to are PGT, BOD, YoshiAmano and Damion's coir bucket teks), and this figure only includes the added water, not any water already present in the coir. Clearly these guys are getting results, and many people have used their guides to great effect as well, so I'm either completely misunderstanding Staments' recommendations, or the information is outdated, or there is something else. Do you think the vermiculite is absorbing extra moisture over 60% to allow for an extra moisture buffer in the substrate?


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


Edited by nakadash1 (02/28/23 01:02 PM)


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28210264 - 03/01/23 08:52 PM (10 months, 22 days ago)

Different subs will hold varying amounts of water and allow mushrooms to colonize successfully. Coco coir will hold much more water than fuel pellets. I really don't worry about it. I know 60% will produce at least 2 flushes of mushrooms. I never do a second flush though because it would cost too much for me to get a 2nd flush plus the second flush will not look as good as the first. If you want me to explain more about why I don't do a second flush and why it does not make sense to do so let me know.


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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28211211 - 03/02/23 03:47 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Different subs will hold varying amounts of water and allow mushrooms to colonize successfully. Coco coir will hold much more water than fuel pellets. I really don't worry about it. I know 60% will produce at least 2 flushes of mushrooms. I never do a second flush though because it would cost too much for me to get a 2nd flush plus the second flush will not look as good as the first. If you want me to explain more about why I don't do a second flush and why it does not make sense to do so let me know.




didn't know fuel pellets were inferior to coco in water holding capacity. I read coir holds 8-10x its weight in water, so I take it that most of the CVG teks are relatively conservative in how much water they use. Are you suggesting that higher moisture content = more flushes? I was under the impression people rehydrate between flushes so its surprising to know that the initial water content dictates the number of flushes.

I am curious as to what additional costs you incur for successive flushes, as I thought the only extra cost is the water it takes to rehydrate the blocks. I kind of just assumed that anybody flushing once was only doing so because of time/space constraints, or have so many good first flushes in the pipeline that it just doesn't make sense to even do the second flush for inferior fruits. Thanks for sharing!

**Edit: By the way, would you have any advice as to what to do with substrate after a first flush, other than just toss it? For example, would it be suitable to homogenize blocks and put them in a bucket to try to eke out a few fruits, or maybe bury in a hole covered with some mulch? Or perhaps even use it to try to colonize more spawn? It feels wrong to discard coco+vermiculite and half-decomposed grain because it seems like it would make wonderful soil for leafy plants.


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


Edited by nakadash1 (03/02/23 04:37 PM)


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28211426 - 03/02/23 06:21 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

The water dictates how many flushes you can get without rehydrating. I could bet two flushes with fuel pellets at 60% water content.

The reason it is not wise to do a second flush with a small space and I would argue it is not wise to do a second flush at all is as follows...

once you put blocks/bags into the fruiting chamber it will take them a week to fruit and harvest. I get an average of 2 lbs per block.

If I wait on a second flush I will be waiting an additional 2 weeks to get the second flush and the second flush will average about 1/2 of the 1st flush or about a pound. The pound you get off the second flush will not look nearly as good as the 1st flush.

So in 3 weeks, I would get a total of 3 lbs if I wait on a 2nd flush. If I put new bags in every week? I end up with double that amount 6lbs but it is double the amount of work also. 2nd flush mushrooms are harder to sell and do not demand as much.


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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28211439 - 03/02/23 06:27 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Are you using 5lb or 11lb blocks?


--------------------
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28211670 - 03/02/23 08:32 PM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?

Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?

The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28211914 - 03/03/23 12:20 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

I am doing 5 lb blocks. I was doing 12 lb blocks but I was not getting as much fruit from a 12 lb block as I do from two 5 lb blocks.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28211937 - 03/03/23 12:48 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

nakadash1 said:
Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?

Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?

The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...




You can't grow oysters in a mono tub you will end up growing all stip. Almost all edibles require too much FAE to be grown in a mono tub. If you are growing actives you are ok using a mono tub if you are growing edibles you can not grow them in a mono tub.

To grow mushrooms you need spawn usually a grain like rye berries or whole oats or millet. I use either a 50/50 combination of millet and whole oats or just whole oats. Whole oats for me are cheap and millet helps because they give you more inoculation points because they are so small.

Once you have colonized spawn you mix it with your sub in my case I use fuel pellets and soyhulls. You can also use fuel pellets and wheat bran. If you are not sterilizing just use fuel pellets. Once the spawn is mixed with the fuel pellets colonization starts and will take 10 to 14 days to fully colonize. Once the bag is colonized it will be white but you will not see any pins. Then you do not open the bag you just cut a slice in the bag trying not to lift the bag away from the sub. You only want the small slice to get fresh air. The pins will form where you sliced the bag and will lift the bag as they get bigger. Take a look at these pics they may help...

Pins starting...



Pins starting to develop...



Pins a little further along the way...



All that started from a slice in the bag and notice how the bag is being pushed up and out of the way.


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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28211997 - 03/03/23 04:30 AM (10 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

SHROOMSISAY01 said:
Quote:

nakadash1 said:
Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. May I ask what you do with the harvested blocks after the first flush?

Also, I'm assuming you aren't using monotubs since you refer to a fruiting chamber, so are you using bags? A lot of the instructions on "colonization" and "fruiting conditions" are not super specific or even contradictory. Please correct me if I'm wrong, from everything I've read about using bags it sounds like "colonization" begins after you spawn to bulk and seal up the bag, and then once the top layer looks ready (lots of pin heads), you cut the bag open and the first flush grows?

The most confusing advice I've seen with respect to colonization and fruiting conditions is usually for monotubs or dub tubs; some people say to seal it up for colonization and then leave the lid loose for fruiting, other people say to just leave it loose as soon as you've spawned to bulk...




You can't grow oysters in a mono tub you will end up growing all stip. Almost all edibles require too much FAE to be grown in a mono tub. If you are growing actives you are ok using a mono tub if you are growing edibles you can not grow them in a mono tub.

To grow mushrooms you need spawn usually a grain like rye berries or whole oats or millet. I use either a 50/50 combination of millet and whole oats or just whole oats. Whole oats for me are cheap and millet helps because they give you more inoculation points because they are so small.

Once you have colonized spawn you mix it with your sub in my case I use fuel pellets and soyhulls. You can also use fuel pellets and wheat bran. If you are not sterilizing just use fuel pellets. Once the spawn is mixed with the fuel pellets colonization starts and will take 10 to 14 days to fully colonize. Once the bag is colonized it will be white but you will not see any pins. Then you do not open the bag you just cut a slice in the bag trying not to lift the bag away from the sub. You only want the small slice to get fresh air. The pins will form where you sliced the bag and will lift the bag as they get bigger. Take a look at these pics they may help...

Pins starting...



Pins starting to develop...



Pins a little further along the way...



All that started from a slice in the bag and notice how the bag is being pushed up and out of the way.




What type of mushrooms is that fruiting block pictured?

Thank you very much, I had no idea that edibles were not suitable for monotubs. I succesfully grew a grow kit block by cutting a slit and pointing a humidifier at it with great results, so I learned how to make the blocks and put them all in a tub with a humidifier expecting similar results. Big nope! Indeed they all grew stipey (Pink, Pearl, and King oysters) and only flushed once. I thought keeping the tub lid half open would be a lot of air flow, thanks for setting me straight.

I also spawned one block of GT in a filter bag which is looking like 30% colonized right now. Does your advice above apply only to edibles, or can I also wait until the actives block is fully colonized and slice the bag?


--------------------
#1 Tek
With utmost care and precision,I work to achieve my fungal mission.
Sterilizing all my tools and space,to ensure not a single spore is out of place.
I carefully select the fungal strain and onto the agar, I make it rain.
With a steady hand and gentle touch, I inoculate the plate without a hitch.
Success is sweet when it's pure and true, and my agar plates are a testament too. A job well done, with no contamination, my fungi inoculation, a thing of  admiration.
JK NO
--Bacteriological Virtuoso aka Master of Mold


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: nakadash1]
    #28212700 - 03/03/23 03:54 PM (10 months, 20 days ago)

It has been 20 years since I grew actives and I don't want to give you bad advice. I personally would probably just remove the bag and sit it in a mono tub and let it fruit where ever. If you don't damage the bag you can use it again. I am assuming you used coco coir for the sub which holds more water so water can evaporate and give the mono tub humidity so the mushrooms will grow well. You want the water in the sub to evaporate unlike edibles because we are using fuel pellets which hold less water and if it evaporates the mushrooms will not develop properly.


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OfflineSHROOMSISAY01M
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Re: Figuring out water content of substrate. TEK [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
    #28218585 - 03/07/23 08:30 AM (10 months, 17 days ago)

That block is either
Amycel 3015 or Aloha Medicinal Elma


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