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Offlinerickysavage
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I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start.
    #26630539 - 04/26/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, I am on my second trial of PF Tek. I have 10 jars that have been sterilized and inoculated. I am waiting for colonization. Additionally, I have 5 spore syringes on the way, arriving Wednesday and I wanted to try a bulk technique.

I have done a ton of reading here, other places on the internet, watching youtube videos and I am getting the hang of the process in general.

I am no expert and wanted to follow a technique that is proven. The thing is, I don't know where to start. Even with "bod" I find his threads overwhelming with information without a clear path. What is a bulk technique that I can start with, that provides a clear path?

Still a beginner trying to learn.


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Offlinerickysavage
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26630584 - 04/26/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If I am following BOD's Easy AF unmodified monotub, am I right that these would be the best step? I am using a spore syringe, not agar.
  • make grain spawn with oats
  • inoculate grain spawn with spore syringes, allow colonization
  • make substrate
  • mix substrate and grain spawn in monotub
  • change to growing conditions


I am finding a hard time finding the ratio of grain spawn to substrate


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26630593 - 04/26/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Between 1:1 and 1:4 spawn to bulk sub.

Those are the steps basically, you’ll not know what your putting in those grains until it germinates so you can end up wasting a lot of time and grain. Agar is super easy, just another process and basically necessary for growing in bulk.

There is a flow chart of the process as the first link on the “everything you need to know” page


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Offlinerickysavage
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26630601 - 04/26/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Okay. So as long as ratio is between 1:1 and 1:4, that is okay?

After making grain spawn, I can inoculate with syringe, correct?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26630616 - 04/26/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yup.

You can if you must


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26630634 - 04/26/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Some people it works some dont
Syringe to grain was hard for me when starting

Agar is easy bro

Mix 3 ingredients, load in pc, cook, let cool, pour plates in SAB, let cool, transfer sample

Easy as pie and much better for going to bulk

The thing is there are a lot of different teks for the same thing so a lot of personal preference

You got the general idea

Personally i do wbs
Spawn to coir and verm

7 or 8 qt of spawn to a brick of coir and verm is how i do it

Theres a lot of leeway with spawn sub ratio


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Offlinerickysavage
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: Enkidu]
    #26630673 - 04/26/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Okay, I will look into agar. The steps just look so overwhelming especially when I am already trying to learn monotub method from PF TEK. Its another barrier.

Can you make agar from spore syringes? Or Where does the "important" ingredient come from?


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Offlinerickysavage
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: Enkidu]
    #26630678 - 04/26/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If I am using agar, my updated steps go like this, correct?

  • make grain spawn with oats
  • add agar to grain spawn quart jar, allow colonization
  • make substrate
  • mix substrate and grain spawn in monotub, 1:1 to 1:4 grain to sub ratio
  • change to growing conditions


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26630693 - 04/26/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

First step would be to germinate spores on agar, then clean up a culture to drop to grains. Germination takes anywhere from 3 days to 4 weeks, typically about a week or so, IME.

Plenty of time to keep reading. And reading. And reading.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage] * 1
    #26630759 - 04/26/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You can use colonized cakes to inoculate grains. Check THIS out. You can inoculate several quarts of grains with each cake. I haven't found a faster way to colonize grain.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26631002 - 04/26/20 11:09 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I would recommend PF Tek to bulk, aka Crumble and Case. Basically mixing colonized PF cakes with uncolonized grains. Shoebox tek is probably the best way for start bulk using PF cakes as the starting material. Hope this helps.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631246 - 04/27/20 03:01 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Going BRF to bulk is viable IMO, but don't involve any grains in process. Just mix the cakes with bulk substrate like coir.

I'd also recommend you to start with shoeboxes instead of monotubs.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: poisoned]
    #26631253 - 04/27/20 03:08 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Whats the main disadvantage of adding colonized PF cake pieces to grain? Is there more of a risk of contamination?


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631259 - 04/27/20 03:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

If you can do grains, why wouldn't you start with grains? They are way faster than cakes, they will crumble if you bang the jars against your hand or a tire and they don't have any dirty stuff inside the jar.

PF tek jars have contaminants inside on the dry verm layer and probably the glass too.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: poisoned]
    #26631266 - 04/27/20 03:18 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You can start with grains, but you would have to learn agar too. Maybe OP is in a hurry :wink:

I would recommend this for someone who was transitioning from PF Tek to Grains:  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20410651#20410651


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Offlinepoisoned
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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631273 - 04/27/20 03:24 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

MS->Grain seems like a more valid approach than this. Eat knows his shit tho, so IDK.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: poisoned]
    #26631277 - 04/27/20 03:30 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

To my understanding, spore syringe is too dirty for MS to syringe. Although straight off a spore print *might* work but not sure :shrug:

I feel like PF Tek to Grain is the safer pathway. Eat definitely knows his shroomz. Top of the Class :mushroom2:


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: Enkidu]
    #26631278 - 04/27/20 03:31 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

By qt/quarts do people always mean the actual volume of 0.94liters or whatever the exact number was? Cos that is a lot of spawn


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631280 - 04/27/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

It means you can fit a quart of grain inside a quart sized jar. Bulk is all about huge amounts of spawn :lol:

Also should be noted to not fill a quart jar completely full. 75% full of grain is best so you can shake the jar if needed.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631285 - 04/27/20 03:41 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I actually might use my colonizing 3 brf jars to inoculate grains like in the tek you linked. Then I only need a PC but no agar so I could get more shrooms faster :crazy2::lol:


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631289 - 04/27/20 03:43 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, its a workaround for agar use and seems like the next LogicaL step for the PF Tek.

Plus some Shroomery Sponsors sell grain bags and grain jars which might be viable. Havent tried it thou.

I was thinking of trying it too with some of these blue glass Quart Jars: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ball-1440069024-Collection-Elite-Wide-Mouth-Mason-Jar-1-Qt-Blue-4-Pack/133068823308?hash=item1efb851b0c:g:R6cAAOSwt69d8fyO


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631294 - 04/27/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Any idea how many grams of oats go in 3/4 quarts? Organic whole oats are expensive and I dont feel like ordering a 20-30kg bag


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631297 - 04/27/20 03:48 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Hard to say. Never really measured it :shrug:

Theres got to be a weight to volume spawn calculator somewhere....


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631298 - 04/27/20 03:48 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I will just google that


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26631314 - 04/27/20 03:58 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You're looking at the wrong places for oats. Look at farming/feed stores. If you live in a more urban area, WBS might be more easily available to you.

Quote:

To my understanding, spore syringe is too dirty for MS to syringe.



It's definitely not a 100% reliable method. IMO, PF cake -> grain would fall into a similar range, especially for a noob.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: poisoned]
    #26631317 - 04/27/20 03:59 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Whoops, that was a typo. I meant MS syringe to Grain is risky and should be avoided by using agar or by using PF cakes as spawn.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631336 - 04/27/20 04:19 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

PF cakes are probably just as risky is my point. PF cakes don't provide any benefits of agar.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: poisoned]
    #26631337 - 04/27/20 04:21 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Are they thou? Have you experienced this first hand?

PF cakes do not have any benefits to agar except they don't need a PC.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631350 - 04/27/20 04:32 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

You'll need a PC if you're doing grains anyways. What I meant to say is that PF tek doesn't provide any benefits in term of cleaning cultures like agar does. Agar works because you can visually inspect your culture. It probably worked for eat because he's experienced as fuck, meaning his spores were very clean, his cakes were very clean and he had a lot of experience with transfers.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631351 - 04/27/20 04:32 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Pf cakes as inoculants at least colonize very rapidly. Spores take a long time to germinate. That is my understanding so far anyways.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631353 - 04/27/20 04:33 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Pf cakes as inoculants at least colonize very rapidly. Spores take a long time to germinate. That is my understanding so far anyways.




You need to take cake colonization time into the calculation. Cakes are slow as fuck.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631355 - 04/27/20 04:34 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I am definitely going agar soon. I just have some brf cakes going atm.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631362 - 04/27/20 04:38 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

These cakes were actually inoculated with agar that I got from a friend (the agar was nocd by ne). No dry verm, just dropped the agar in in an SAB after steaming. Seems good so far and they are about half way through. Maybe I just got lucky.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631371 - 04/27/20 04:53 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That's pretty cool. Does the lid have a filter or is it just 4 inoculate holes with tin foil covering it?


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26631462 - 04/27/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I used micropore tape at first but now that the mycelium has colonised the top completely I figured I would give it some more air by removing the tape altogether, since it was really fluffy I thought it needed air. The holes were so tiny I was afraid I would stall the growth otherwise. It looks fine now. Maybe I didnt have to do it, dont know.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631467 - 04/27/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Are these PF Tek cake jars?

Do you leave the tin foil on or just open-air it?


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631474 - 04/27/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yes just pf tek jars steamed and nocd with agar. I decided to nit add dry verm later either and just go with the mpore tape. Foil was on during steaming. Now its just open air. Sounds a bit worrying to be honest but they are in a closet shelf with no air flow so I figured contams would not get into the uncolonized substrate easily anyways and whats it gonna do on top of the mycelium.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631478 - 04/27/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Huh interesting. So no protective layer at all. Just open-air. And the top of the PF cake mixture doesn't show any mold?


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631486 - 04/27/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

No it still looks like mycelium to me, might be mold as well though :lol: well I guess I will know if green or black shows up. There is healthy hyphae goibg all round but I cant know if theres mold growing somewhere there.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631489 - 04/27/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Sounds awesome! I always wondered if you could use agar with PF cakes. Now I know its totally possible!


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26631497 - 04/27/20 06:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I will report back if all goes well too. Mind you, I think mold isn't that much in the air due to the time of year where I am at, northern europe. I still get mold on bread and fruits and anything damp after a while. I am definitely excited about this too mainly because I might have 2 pint size and one half pint jar of spawn in a week or so :awesomenod:


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26631540 - 04/27/20 06:57 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Any idea how many grams of oats go in 3/4 quarts? Organic whole oats are expensive and I dont feel like ordering a 20-30kg bag




After I've prepped my grain (I tend to go a tad dry) I'll weigh out 300g for wedge drops/LI and about 250g if I plan on g2g... I'm a weirdo and weigh everything... sometime it helps, lol


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: roarkell]
    #26631628 - 04/27/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Here are some numbers that might be helpful...

To make about 10 full quarts of substrate mix a brick of coir (625-650g) + 2 full quarts verm + 1 cup gypsum + about 4.5 quarts water. Pasteurize at 140-160* for 1 hour, remove from heat and allow to cool to room temp.

A 66qt mono (24"x16"x14") wants about 17 quarts of spawn + substrate to fill to slightly less than 3".  The formula to determine total spawn + substrate to fill any tub to actual 3" is ((width x length x 3)/57.75). These are rough calculations because spawn jars will be about 75% full while substrate jars will be 100% full plus firmed down. The substrate jars' contents will expand somewhat once you dump and mix with spawn. A 66qt PE mono recently required 9qts spawn + 8qts CVG to fill to 2.75" and I later added .25" Jiffy Mix (1.25qt) as a casing layer.

A mono wants between 3" and 4" total spawn + substrate .

Most of the info above was gleaned from Frank H and Bod teks as recommended to beginners. Hope that's helpful!


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InfraredRick] * 1
    #26631639 - 04/27/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Wow I have come back to quite the discussion yall. So pf cakes to grain is a viable option?

If I want to take fully colonized pf tek cakes I can use that to go to bulk?


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage]
    #26631659 - 04/27/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

According to eatyoualive and other cultivators, yes you can use a colonized PF cake as spawn for grain.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: rickysavage] * 1
    #26631672 - 04/27/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I suggest you consider using a cheese grater to break up your fully colonized PF cakes then mix with CVG at a 1qt:2qt ratio and fill shoes to about 3". (I personally like a 1:1 ratio to ensure the substrate colonizes as quickly as possible to reduce risk of contams. But most folks go 1:2 to 1:4.)


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InfraredRick] * 1
    #26631744 - 04/27/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Wait, are we talking about using grain as bulk or what? brf cakes to bulk coir is tried and tested by many and I have had that working currently. Cakes to inoculate grain was discussed previously.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26631768 - 04/27/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

That's what Im referring to yes. It would be my suggestion to evolve from PF Tek to Grain as it uses both.


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Re: I have done PF Tek and want to go bigger. I don't know where to start. [Re: InnerWisdom] * 2
    #26631812 - 04/27/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Cakes to grain is a little more advanced then it might sound. You’re making a slurry with a modified blender lid. And if your cakes aren’t clean you’ll have trouble.

You can also crumble pf cakes to bulk, but if they aren’t clean...

And cakes take a while to colonize. Agar - blenderless LI - grain - is pretty freakin swift. It’s all options though. People tend to want to find ways around agar for some reason and I don’t get it. I wanna see what I’m working with.


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