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TertiaOculus
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PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread 1
#26628682 - 04/26/20 02:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hi Mycomrades,
I am new to growing. I have some questions about the substrate consistency for using the PF Tek Method. I have now mixed 4-5 batches of substrate using the 2:1:1 Verm2-BRF1-Water1 ratio. Just fyi this is for P.Cube, more specifically GTs!
** SEE Attached PDF PICTURE FOR REFERENCE
The 1st time I ever mixed the substrate, it turned out perfect. I mixed 1.5cups of Verm+ 3/4 cups of Organic BRF (unknown brand) + 3/4 cup of natural spring water. Hand mixed. The substrate's consistency was similar to slightly damp sand but NOT clumpy. (not in picture, already inoculated),
The 2nd time I attempted to make substrate I mixed 2 cups Verm + 1 cup Organic BRF (Arrowmills) + 1 cup water. It turned out very clumpy/chunky, after doing some research it seemed to not be optimal so I dumped the whole batch. I used NO method or process when I mixed this (same as the 1st time). Hand mixed.
So I tried again (3rd time), I read on a forum to be sure to mix Verm & BRF together BEFORE mixing water AND to SLOWLY add water while mixing. I also mixed the same amount this time (as my first time) using 1.5cups Verm + 3/4 cups BRF + 3/4 cups water to rule our that variable. This batch was SLIGHTLY less clumpy but still much clumpier than the very first time I ever made substrate using NO process at all, just dumping everything in a pot and Hand mixing it. (See Number 1 in picture -most clumpy - LEFT Jar)
I now try a 4th time (same day, same BRF, VERM and water). This time I pre-mix 2:1 parts Verm + BRF in a pot (using 1.5:.75:.75cups) Next I fill my measuring glass with 1 Part water (3/4cup) and I slowly add a small amount of water and mix substrate, I keep doing this till the mix was approximately the same consistency as my very first batch, comparable to slightly damp sand. The measurements I used here were 1.5cups Verm + .75cup BRF + .5Cup water so the ratio would be 2:1:(~.8) so basically silghtly less than 1 part water. This seemed to give me an optimal consistency for the substrate and was very similar to my first batch. (Number 3 in picture- Most fine, Right Jar)
Just to be sure, I try ONE MORE TIME (5th Attempt, same day, same exact ingredients). I felt as if I was trying to mix TOO MUCH substrate at one time and that is possibly why it was so clumpy, but it was just speculation. So I do a 2:1:1 again this time using .5 cup Verm + .25 cup BRF + .25 cup water for a true 2:1:1 and a very small batch (only for ~1jar). I pre-mixed the BRF and Verm and than slowly added the water while mixing in increments. This gave me a finer mix than the times I made a larger batches BUT still clumpier than my first time and clumpier than 2:1:(.8) mixture. I would say slightly clumpy. (Number 2 in picture/Middle)
I have attached a picture with 3 of these jars. Jar 1 = 3rd attempt (most clumpy, using 2:1:1 (1.5:.75:.75Cups) and pre-mixing Verm+BRF, than slowly adding & mixing water in increments) Jar 2 = 5th attempt (slightly clumpy, using 2:1:1, SMALL batch (.5:.25:.25cups), pre-mixed Verm+BRF, slowly added & mixed water in increments) Jar 3= 4th Attempt- Most fine, using 2:1:(.08) - (1.5cupsV:.75cupBRF:.5cupswater) , pre-mixed verm+BRF, slowly added+ mixed water until optimal consistency (slightly damp sand).
1st attempt is NOT in pictures as it is already inoculated and incubating but was very similar to 4th attempt! 2nd attempt NOT pictured, too clumpy and tossed.
Questions:
1- Does anyone notice that mixing LARGE batches off substrate makes it clumpier or harder to get a good consistency VS smaller batches?
2- Has anyone noticed a difference when using different brands of BRF? The first time I used an unknown brand of BRF, I forgot which brand but it was organic vs the 2nd-5th attempts I used Arrowmills brand BRF organic, would this make any difference? I know it was a different brand but both were organic
3- Does anyone know the exact purpose of mixing the water into the substrate? More specifically, is the water included in the mixture only to get the correct consistency for the substrate in the 2:1:1 ratio?
4- What is the optimal consistency that you look for? It would seem after my research you would want it to be pretty fine/loose and comparable to damp sand as opposed to clumpy.
5- Out of the jars in the pic 1-2-3, which one looks to be the best consistency?
6- Any tips/advice from the veterans? Or do you notice that I am doing anything wrong with my process or measurements?
(pic attached)
Thanks in advance!
Edited by TertiaOculus (04/26/20 02:38 AM)
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Ombisha
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: TertiaOculus] 2
#26628714 - 04/26/20 03:02 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like your approach, but i think you are overcomplicating it. All the jars in the picture look the same to me. Back when I was doing cakes, I would use:
1 part brf (whatever brand, I once even used corn flour) 1 part water 2 part vermiculite (fine or medium)
My trick was, that I would first mix verm with water and then started slowly adding the flour. You know... add a bit, mix it well - repeat. Always turned out fine, even with large batches. My tip would be: use a thick verm layer on the top... don't get greedy with it.
Here I'm going to directly answer some of your questions:
3- mushrooms need water, its not just for consistency. 4- yeah, fine and loose sounds right... keep in mind that dryer is better than wetter, but honestly, you should get the moisture content just right with the 2:1:1 formula
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Momorush
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: TertiaOculus]
#26628717 - 04/26/20 03:05 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all, welcome to The Shroomery.
1. Yes. I made a batch 2 nights ago. I've been doing enough for 5 jars, but this batch I made for 10 jars and I struggled to get the consistency right using the same ratio 2:1:1. Added more verm and brf until I got it right.
2. I've only used 1 brand of brown rice, ground up.
3. The mycelium needs water. Mushrooms are ~90% water. Too much water and we're going to stall or contam.
4. Loose damp sand consistency is what we look for. Not too clumpy.
5. I'm no pro, but they all look ok. Going from the left to right is best to worst.
6. I find mixing the water with the verm thoroughly before adding the brf gets the job done well. Also those jars look a little tall, I've read a lot about people's jars like those stalling.
I'm only on my second and third grows now, so if anyone with more experience than me can correct anything I've said, please do!
And good luck for your first grow!
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fahtster
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: TertiaOculus] 1
#26628729 - 04/26/20 03:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I personally used about the amount of water of that first jar but I’m guessing any of those 3 would work... although it’s kind of hard to see into that last one because of the diamond cut on the jar glass.
1. I use to make 2 cakes worth of mix at a time.. seemed to be easier to manage but as long as you mix the ingredients up really well with larger batches, all the cakes will have roughly the same amount of moisture etc because they came from the same batch.
2. Not really.. any organic brf works about the same. It’s be pretty hard to tell the difference because cakes act differently anyhow.. even from the same batch. IME
3. Mushrooms need water to grow
4. It’s a fine line.. like I said, I like mine a little wetter than most probably but just a little too much and you’re going to run into stalling problems or parts of the cake won’t fully colonize
If a batch seems too clumpy, just add more verm or brf Until it doesn’t... no need to throw away anything. It doesn’t have to be exact. I guess unless you already pc’d it and had second thoughts on clumpiness
Unless your place is below 65F, ditch the incubator.. they colonize fine at room temp. You risk over heating them with incubators
Faht
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TertiaOculus
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Registered: 04/26/20
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: Ombisha]
#26628738 - 04/26/20 03:19 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks for the quick replies!
@Ombisha Thanks for the tip! I like the idea of mixing Verm + water 1st! Good point about mushrooms, needing water, totally did not even cross my mind. Also good tip about the Verm. I was told to fill substrate up till bottom ring on 1/2 pint jar than wipe clean the top inner part of the jar and top off with dry Verm (w/ a slight bulge on top). That is what I did for all of mine, does that sound right? Thanks again!
@Momorush Thanks! So if it is too clumpy you can just add a little more Verm+BRF? Sounds like a simple fix. Thanks for the info about water ratios as well. Do you think my jar with 2:1:(.08) water will be ok? I used 1.5 cups verm, .75 cups BRF and ~.5 cup water?
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TertiaOculus
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: fahtster]
#26628753 - 04/26/20 03:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks for answering my questions. True the pic is low quality as and the diamond cut jars make it hard to see. Thanks for letting me know about BRF.
Good point about adding more Verm+BRF and I didn't think about that. Also thanks for the tip about the incubator as well.
To ask another question...
I just set 4 of my inoculated jars in a smallish plastic bin (similar to a small rubbermaid) without a top on it. I placed in the cabinet above the fridge as well as I have heard and can also can feel a slight bit of heat coming off the top/back of the fridge. Does that sound alright? The jars have the 4 puncture holes in the top left opened as well to breathe.
Thanks!
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Momorush
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: TertiaOculus]
#26629044 - 04/26/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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The jar with less water should be ok. Time will tell. People always say a little too dry is better than too wet. You can keep them anywhere room temp is fine.
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TertiaOculus
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: fahtster]
#26654264 - 05/07/20 02:13 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Update:
So all of my 14 jars (1/2 pint) have mycelium. They almost all started to visibly show mycelium after 7 days, with some coming in earlier and stronger and other taking about 8-9 days to show some mycelium patches. So far there is only white mycelium so I believe there is not any contamination so far.
I have 2 plastic totes and I seperated the fast growers from the slow growers once I started seeing mycelium, one group in one tote = fast group, one group in the other tote = slow group, while each grouping of 7 jars (14 total) are fairly similar.
Info: Ambient Temperature = high 60's to low/ mid 70s on average Light= They are in a cupboard (closed door), across from a window (that is open most of the day) that only receives some indirect sunlight, I also check them once or twice daily which also affects that. They are never exposed to direct sunlight and while in the cupboard with the door closed I am guessing they only receive minimal amounts of indirect sunlight. So I assume that they are at least syncing a circadian rhythm. Placement: They are placed in a cupboard above the refrigerator, the fridge is supposed to give off some heat from the back and with heat rising the idea is that the little guys are getting slightly more heat than the ambient temperature. (I have cut some cardboard and Styrofoam in a barrier above the frig to trap some extra heat as well, I dont think it does much but maybe all in all it they are in a temperature that is 1-2 degrees above ambient temp.)
So far it has been about 9-10 days since I inoculated them. The fast group is about 1/3-1/2 covered with mycelium, the slow group is lagging at about 1/6 jar or less mycelium.
Discovery: @momorush - you were right
1: The looser/ clumpier jars seem like they are actually better. The jars with looser/clumpier substrate are growing mycelium significantly faster than the jars with a finer, more sand-like substrate mixture.
2: I have also been checking them quite frequently (x2 daily) and have noticed that it seems like the jars that are closest to the source of light, or the door of the cupboard facing the window are growing mycelium faster. How? I don't know but whenever there are mycelium patches they are more common in the side of the jar(s) facing the door/window than the side in darkness. I have tried this by rotating the jars to put the side of the jar with no/less mycelium towards the door/window side of the cupboard. It seems as though each time I rotate the mycelium grows on that side stronger BUT also this may be a bad correlation as mycelium would be more likely to grow on a spot with no visible mycelium as opposed to an already populated spot but I am not an expert so I do not know.
I DO know that the initial mycelium patches seemed to mostly start growing on the side of the jars facing the door/window (small amount of indirect sunlight), as far as me rotating them, that may very well be doing nothing but I wanted to include my findings here for the community.
Lastly I will note, I was pretty extreme with cleanliness when inoculating. I shrinkwrapped my got damn toilet and taped of any spaces around the sink when I inoculated in a bathroom along with iso alc, lysol the air about 1 hour prior, gloves, shower, gloves, mask, mini iso alc wash for gloves, arms and upper body/ neck, bleach all surfaces including floor, iso alc spray the air, and walls and top of my head, lighter (cleaned with bleach) to flame sterilize needles and wiped needle clean with alcohol soaked napkin after every separate injection while also flame sterilizing the needle again after every jar and probably things I am forgetting but you get the picture, actually thinking about it, it would have been much easier and quicker to just make a glovebox but oh well.
I was wondering, when, or at what stage of cultivation, is contamination most prominent when growing the pf tek method?
Thanks!
Edited by TertiaOculus (05/07/20 02:21 AM)
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Ombisha
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Re: PF Tek Substrate Consistency Thread [Re: TertiaOculus]
#26654326 - 05/07/20 03:21 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, all that hassle with cleaning isn't even really worth it. Don't make a glovebox, make a SAB. Just melt two armholes in a box. Contamination can come from insufficient sterilization, or it can be introduced during inoculation... most commonly through contaminated syringes since spore print is never 100% clean. If its there, your cakes won't finish colonizing or straight up go moldy.
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