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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,495
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Or any more true.
You'll live. You'll die. That's all. What you do in between means absolutely nothing. The world and everything on it will be consumed by the sun in due time. There's no meaning or purpose to any of it.
Enjoy your life for the time you have it. There's nothing else. Wasting time trying to find meaning is foolish.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 19 minutes, 47 seconds
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Yeah...it's a dead end. It's mental masturbation. If it's unknowable, it's irrelevant to the equation. It's just an excuse for you to play the moody, broody dude with the weight of the world on your shoulders. Maybe someone here or there will confuse you with a "deep thinker," but most adults have long ago learned how to compartmentalize the unknowable and move on with their lives.
You'll figure it out, too, but first, you're going to have to get tired of this ego-stroking nonsense.
It’s not ego stroking, it’s essentially realizing that what I have based my world view on is little more than belief.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-prove-solipsism
As it says calling it “useless” doesn’t make it any less true.
Bullshit. You can touch people. Saying your senses are not true is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You are spitting in people with disabilities faces by taking senses for granted. You know how bad some people would love to see/hear/smell/touch? Fuck man.
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
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InnerWisdom



Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,936
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 4 days, 9 hours
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: What's the idea behind your sensations then in solipsism? Are you in a virtual reality fed to you like in the matrix?
Can you answer this Thanatos?
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Enlil said: Or any more true.
You'll live. You'll die. That's all. What you do in between means absolutely nothing. The world and everything on it will be consumed by the sun in due time. There's no meaning or purpose to any of it.
Enjoy your life for the time you have it. There's nothing else. Wasting time trying to find meaning is foolish.
Kind of hard to enjoy it with the uncertainty of the existence of others.
Quote:
spirit_shadow said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Yeah...it's a dead end. It's mental masturbation. If it's unknowable, it's irrelevant to the equation. It's just an excuse for you to play the moody, broody dude with the weight of the world on your shoulders. Maybe someone here or there will confuse you with a "deep thinker," but most adults have long ago learned how to compartmentalize the unknowable and move on with their lives.
You'll figure it out, too, but first, you're going to have to get tired of this ego-stroking nonsense.
It’s not ego stroking, it’s essentially realizing that what I have based my world view on is little more than belief.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-prove-solipsism
As it says calling it “useless” doesn’t make it any less true.
Bullshit. You can touch people. Saying your senses are not true is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You are spitting in people with disabilities faces by taking senses for granted. You know how bad some people would love to see/hear/smell/touch? Fuck man.
But that doesn't make them real. I can "touch" people in dreams but you wouldn't call that real right? Hence the problem. I know my life would be better if I never heard of solipsism, then I wouldn't have this persistent gap between me and "others" or this pervading sense of "unreality" when it comes to other people.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Yeah...it's a dead end. It's mental masturbation. If it's unknowable, it's irrelevant to the equation. It's just an excuse for you to play the moody, broody dude with the weight of the world on your shoulders. Maybe someone here or there will confuse you with a "deep thinker," but most adults have long ago learned how to compartmentalize the unknowable and move on with their lives.
You'll figure it out, too, but first, you're going to have to get tired of this ego-stroking nonsense.
It’s not ego stroking, it’s essentially realizing that what I have based my world view on is little more than belief.
https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-prove-solipsism
As it says calling it “useless” doesn’t make it any less true.
Quote:
Even for a solipsist, three things can be known to exist.
The mind.....which perceives that I exist. The world.....which delineates the experiences that allow me to conceptualize that "I" exist. Whether the world is objectively real or not is beside the point. Because without it there is no context in which to form the concept of "I". Something may preexist the world, but it can't be defined as "I", until something exists within which to form the "image" of "I". The source.....which gives rise to the first two. If you're to maintain a solipsistic position, then neither of the first two can exist without the presence of the other. The world must exist within the mind, but the mind can't exist without the world which defines it. Therefore the first two must be the product of something else.
Thus even for a solipsist, three things can be known to exist. The mind which perceives that I am. The world which defines what I am. And the source which gives rise to the first two.
great explanation as to why even in solipsism things are dependent upon each other thus making compassion logical as it states: "Whether the world is objectively real or not is beside the point. Because without it there is no context in which to form the concept of "I". " there is no need to be able to verify the existence of others to treat them with compassion the well-being of the individual is co-dependent with the well being of the world
you never mentioned the third "fact" of solipsism to me but this heavily ties it back to Advaita-Vedanta where the Atman (self) and Brahman (ultimate source) are recognized as ultimately being the same thing
Quote:
There is no proof of it. It can’t be proven wrong sure, but to me that doesn’t make something right. It’s the same bad logic people who argue for god use “you can’t prove god doesn’t exist”. I mean yeah we can’t, you can’t prove a negative but that doesn’t make it any more true.
It’s honestly something you can ignore as it advances nothing and means nothing. There is no way to know if it really is true and it’s a waste of energy to worry about it.
I’m also going to add the irony of you asking for proof of solipsism. You can act as though it is true but that would make it no more or less an assumption than the opposite.
Solipsism is just a lens that can be installed
but to reassert, did not call it "useless" because it is untrue -- it proves its own lack of truth by reaching a different conclusion (the self and the universe both cannot be known to exist) than its hypothesis (the self can be known to exist but the universe cannot)
the reference to "useless" is because the philosophy does not seem to provide any context for lived experience whether you manage to break it down into a system that recognizes lived experience or not
the "use" of something like Madhyamaka is not simply because it is True Madhyamaka at its point of philisophical basis establishing the emptiness of reality is the starting step the philosophy proceeds to go on to discuss a wealth of ideas of what the implications for living in a world of that philisophical nature means have mentioned the concept of "two-truths" elsewhere but "two-truths" is not an ultimate philisophical position; it is a linguistic system for discussing the unknowable ultimate reality within the world as we experience it
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Or any more true.
You'll live. You'll die. That's all. What you do in between means absolutely nothing. The world and everything on it will be consumed by the sun in due time. There's no meaning or purpose to any of it.
Enjoy your life for the time you have it. There's nothing else. Wasting time trying to find meaning is foolish.
Kind of hard to enjoy it with the uncertainty of the existence of others.
by not enjoying it, you are still choosing a form of response to the uncertainty of the existence of others
you're being told that you can change your choice, and you are coming up with reasons you do not want to and pretending they are inherently real and existing hurdles blocking your progress
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
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Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: What is love? [Re: Tantrika]
#26633008 - 04/27/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Or any more true.
You'll live. You'll die. That's all. What you do in between means absolutely nothing. The world and everything on it will be consumed by the sun in due time. There's no meaning or purpose to any of it.
Enjoy your life for the time you have it. There's nothing else. Wasting time trying to find meaning is foolish.
Kind of hard to enjoy it with the uncertainty of the existence of others.
by not enjoying it, you are still choosing a form of response to the uncertainty of the existence of others
you're being told that you can change your choice, and you are coming up with reasons you do not want to and pretending they are inherently real and existing hurdles blocking your progress
It's more like I haven't chosen. I'm stuck in the middle because I am afraid to choose the side of believing in it and then having it be wrong and losing "everyone" as a result of that.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 19 minutes, 47 seconds
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-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Or any more true.
You'll live. You'll die. That's all. What you do in between means absolutely nothing. The world and everything on it will be consumed by the sun in due time. There's no meaning or purpose to any of it.
Enjoy your life for the time you have it. There's nothing else. Wasting time trying to find meaning is foolish.
Kind of hard to enjoy it with the uncertainty of the existence of others.
by not enjoying it, you are still choosing a form of response to the uncertainty of the existence of others
you're being told that you can change your choice, and you are coming up with reasons you do not want to and pretending they are inherently real and existing hurdles blocking your progress
It's more like I haven't chosen. I'm stuck in the middle because I am afraid to choose the side of believing in it and then having it be wrong and losing "everyone" as a result of that.
You have chosen, you just have not reached a point where you are able to reflectively recognize your choice
You haven't chosen when you recognize the uncertainty of others you have chosen when the uncertainty of others has you act in ways that inhibit your enjoyment
if you had not chosen, you would not be encountering issues where considering the opposite to be true is a problem, because you would not have a base assertion to be serving in contrast to the idea
being afraid that people may not be real and you proceed to "lose" them is coming at the issue from a position that the likelihood of not being real is higher than the likelihood of being real
tho your language in describing this has me wonder if there is a deeper fear of loss informing all of this because accepting people as real still results in their eventual loss -- withdrawing into the negative side of solipsism would serve as a defense mechanism in this case where the philosophy is providing the mental comfort that no one can be lost if no one exists to begin with
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Thanatos10
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Re: What is love? [Re: Tantrika]
#26633073 - 04/27/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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The problem comes because I have not made a choice. I'm stuck between risking choosing that they are real and fearing the "fall" that comes from me losing them if solipsism turns out to be true and then I am all alone.
So in a sense I am "playing it safe" to protect myself in case solipsism is real as the prospect about being wrong about solipsism is too great for me to risk believing people exist. The fall would be too painful and I would never recover.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: What is love? [Re: Tantrika] 1
#26633077 - 04/27/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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LOL. Thanatos got everyone all spun out trying to help him again!
You're a clever, clever man Thanatos, I'll give you that. You show a moment of vulnerability like this - for all the world a poor, wounded animal - and when tons of kind hearted people jump in and try to help you out, and you spin them out until you can't any more and after all their effort you just turn silent, run away and start the process again elsewhere. Recruiting your next batch of suckers. I've been watching you do it for years now.
It's honestly quite predatory man. I think you prey on peoples emotions. I think you're very good at it, and I also think it's very cruel of you.
If you don't want help - if you are not amenable to change - you really shouldn't be here draining people of their emotional resources.
People don't have infinite time. Yet many of these 'figments' of your imagiation are very kind and good, and sacrifice theirs for you.
Perhaps you should at least show a little respect for those figments and their time, whether they're only in your head or not?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,495
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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This is all attention seeking. Enjoy.
/hide thread
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: The problem comes because I have not made a choice. I'm stuck between risking choosing that they are real and fearing the "fall" that comes from me losing them if solipsism turns out to be true and then I am all alone.
So in a sense I am "playing it safe" to protect myself in case solipsism is real as the prospect about being wrong about solipsism is too great for me to risk believing people exist. The fall would be too painful and I would never recover.
exactly my point you are telling yourself you have not made a choice but you are "playing it safe" by making a choice to abide by solipsism being real
your lived reality is that you have chosen to live as tho solipsism is true, and are putting yourself through the misery of lacking true closeness with people because you are afraid of the misery of being close with people and losing that connection -- which will eventually be the case whether solipsism is true or not there is a great story in Buddhism that actually pertains precisely to this:
Quote:
During Buddha’s time, there lived a woman named Kisa Gotami. She married young and gave birth to a son. One day, the baby fell sick and died soon after. Kisa Gotami loved her son greatly and refused to believe that her son was dead. She carried the body of her son around her village, asking if there was anyone who could bring her son back to life.
A village elder took pity on her and suggested to her to consult the Buddha. She immediately went to the Buddha’s residence and pleaded for him to bring her son back to life. “Kisa Gotami,” said the Buddha. “I have a way to bring your son back to life. But I need you to find me something. Bring me a mustard seed, but it must be taken from a house where no one residing in the house has ever lost a family member. Bring this seed back to me, and your son will come back to life.”
Having great faith in the Buddha’s promise, Kisa Gotami went from house to house, trying to find the mustard seed. At the first house, a young woman offered to give her some mustard seeds. But when Kisa Gotami asked if she had ever lost a family member to death, the young woman said her grandmother died a few months ago.
She kept moving from house to house but the answer was the same—every house had lost a family member to death. Kisa Gotami finally came to realize that there is no one in the world who had never lost a family member to death. She now understood that death is inevitable and a natural part of life.
Putting aside her grief, she buried her son in the forest. Shen then returned to the Buddha and became his follower.
https://www.elephantjournal.com/2017/06/dealing-with-the-death-of-a-loved-one-the-buddhist-way/ solipsism just lets you affirm to yourself that you are less invested in the eventual loss; but you are missing out on the wonders of life that the self's dependence on others to affirm its existence provides by not making that investment
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,665
Last seen: 19 minutes, 47 seconds
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Re: What is love? [Re: Enlil]
#26633093 - 04/27/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah I'm done. Good luck soldier /hide thread
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: ... People don't have infinite time. Yet many of these 'figments' of your imagiation are very kind and good, and sacrifice theirs for you. ...
No, actually, in terms of my use of time this is some of the best love opportunities to reflect upon various Eastern Philosophies and how they frequently hide answers to problems that Western Philosophy did not seem to take as much time to develop there are no practical uses for the knowledge gleaned from having majored in Eastern Religions but it's fun to challenge myself and dig through just how much is available to my immediate memory
in particular, this whole Solipsism bit is running parallels for me from my second or third year taking a mid-level class on Mahayana Buddhism as Madhyamaka was the basis, but Yogacara was later taken up in contrast and Yogacara was basically Eastern Buddhist Solipsism arguing against Madhyamaka philosophers that the "mind-only" view was more advanced and appropriate to the world
scriptures will variously mention other schools or teachers and critique them and digging through the numerous recorded speeches it is possible to find responses to those critiques and it ends up almost like looking back at a historical version of modern forums where a bunch of folk poured over which ideas were best
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: LOL. Thanatos got everyone all spun out trying to help him again!
You're a clever, clever man Thanatos, I'll give you that. You show a moment of vulnerability like this - for all the world a poor, wounded animal - and when tons of kind hearted people jump in and try to help you out, and you spin them out until you can't any more and after all their effort you just turn silent, run away and start the process again elsewhere. Recruiting your next batch of suckers. I've been watching you do it for years now.
It's honestly quite predatory man. I think you prey on peoples emotions. I think you're very good at it, and I also think it's very cruel of you.
If you don't want help - if you are not amenable to change - you really shouldn't be here draining people of their emotional resources.
People don't have infinite time. Yet many of these 'figments' of your imagiation are very kind and good, and sacrifice theirs for you.
Perhaps you should at least show a little respect for those figments and their time, whether they're only in your head or not?
I'm trying to make people understand how terrifying this prospect is but no one seems to get it.
How am I just supposed to "believe" that other people exist outside of me and are real? It just seems so flimsy as opposed to KNOWING that they do. I'm I to go through the rest of my life just saying "i believe this person exists" with each one? I don't know, it just seems so flimsy. That I can't know for sure if you do or do not exist so I just have to believe in it?
To me belief makes something less solid, less real. Like a belief in fairy tales or myths or gods.
I understand the Buddha story about the mustard seed and I can handle that type of loss if they existed to begin with, like when my dog died. What is far harder to handle is realizing that they NEVER existed to begin with, that it was all in my head, that I was always alone and all my bonds and love and caring and anything like that with other people was never real, never true.
Such a conclusion has me in abject terror nearly every day. I don't know how to go on like this. I wish I could forget about this but I know that it won't make it go away or "deal with it", it just kicks the can down the road.
I'm treating the world so far as though solipsism is "true" so that I won't be crushed in case it is true. It's easier (in my mind) to cope with people not being real if you never got close to them to begin with. Getting close to someone and then having the possibility of every special moment I had with them be fake is worse to me than losing someone who was alive.
I'm trying every which way to convey the level of fear I have over this idea and my frustration that I can't just solve it because there is no true solution.
Everyone feels so far away even when they're right next to me or talking to me or, god forbid, hugging me. All I can think about is "what if they aren't real".
People don't realize that "belief" to me is the flimsiest basis to go on for something. As I mentioned before, to me it's tantamount to saying it's a fairy tale, make-believe. I don't want to treat people that way, it just feels wrong. They deserve better than some "egotistical and utter BS nonsense" statement as me saying "I believe you exist and are real".
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
Edited by Thanatos10 (04/27/20 10:41 PM)
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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It's like I am alone, in the darkness, and no matter where I reach I grasp at nothing. I've never felt so scared in my entire life.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Right. Except you've been at this exact stage for over five years now. I welcome you to go back and peruse your oldeest posts for a bit of reflection.
There is only one way any of us can stay stuck at the same stage for five long years; and that's wilfully.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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InnerWisdom



Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,936
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 4 days, 9 hours
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This has gotten a bit ridiculous like trolling or stupid...
On a serious note, have you thought about therapy for this feeling of loneliness and isolation etc? Maybe this solipsism thing is just you trying to put what you are feeling into some framework.
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Quote:
InnerWisdom said: This has gotten a bit ridiculous like trolling or stupid...
On a serious note, have you thought about therapy for this feeling of loneliness and isolation etc? Maybe this solipsism thing is just you trying to put what you are feeling into some framework.
That’s not it, it’s just that I encountered a problem that doesn’t have a simple and neat solution. Depression I can deal with, mostly. The possibility of being the only being that exists isn’t as easy to overcome for me.
I’ve been to therapy before but it wasn’t able to really help with this issue, sadly. I was hoping for some insight that would put this to bed.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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