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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues] * 2
    #26622469 - 04/23/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pirate-blues said:
New Zealand, Taiwan, South Korea, Germany,....all examples of world leaders who acted sooner and thus, were able to actually effectively contain the virus. We can't even properly mitigate it. There are plenty of other countries out that there are in as much of a shit storm as we are, but it's not like it's impossible to have done a (way) better job handling it and those countries I just listed have proven exactly that.



ok so some countries had bans that went into effect before trump's went into effect. The point im making is that he took action against the advice of many people. the WHO recomended against banning travel from China. so did the democrats like Biden. yet now those same democrats are saying he didnt act fast enough.

I agree south korea has done the best job of anyone for sure. I am not saying Trump has had the best response. I'm saying i dont see what he did UNIQUELY WRONG. or why he deserves to be blamed more than many other world leaders and American officials who criticized his earlt action.


Edited by BANANA.MAN (04/23/20 04:48 PM)


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26622472 - 04/23/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pirate-blues said:
Speaking of other countries responses - anyone have any word on how Sweden is doing with their little experiment in darwinism?



we wont know until this thing works its way through the majority of the populations of different countries.

of course Sweden is going to have more cases and deaths than other Nordic countries right now. they are allowing it to spread more, duh.

the question is will they end up with more people dead than other countries.

if they have the same death rate as other countries because they werent overwhelmed then they clearly had a better outcome because they didnt have a 20-30% unemployment rate.

you cant use short term numbers to say Sweden made a bad move. that makes no sense whatsoever. everyone expected more cases in the short term than other countries.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26622476 - 04/23/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

As far as numbers go.

Sweden deaths 1760+(23.4.2020)
population 10.3m (2019)


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Invisibledeucedbi9
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26622488 - 04/23/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pirate-blues said:
Speaking of other countries responses - anyone have any word on how Sweden is doing with their little experiment in darwinism?




Sweden covers an area well over twice that of mainland Uk, with less that 1/7th of the population spread out over three major conurbations several hundreds of miles apart, with litte more than tundra in between. :shrug:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26622490 - 04/23/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



Quote:

“In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable,” Dr. Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, told CNBC on Tuesday.

Herd immunity among a population, usually achieved through vaccination, is reached when around 60% of citizens are deemed immune. Without a vaccine for the coronavirus, however, scientists are looking at whether exposure to and recovery from Covid-19 leads to long-term immunity. Reinfections of coronavirus have been reported.




Quote:

The major part of Sweden’s 15,322 confirmed cases are in Stockholm and its surrounding areas, with very small incidences of the virus in the rest of Sweden — a country of around 10 million that has a low population density outside its urban hubs.

The number of cases in Sweden is almost double that in neighboring Denmark (it has 8,108 cases and has reported 370 deaths) and Finland (with just over 4,000 cases and 141 deaths) that imposed strict lockdown measures. Since their populations are each about 5 million — half of Sweden’s — the rates are about the same, although the comparison could be skewed by testing numbers in each country. Still, Sweden’s 1,937 death toll is far higher than its neighbors.

Sweden originally tested only people who came into a hospital but is now testing more key workers and those in care homes. Tegnell said the decision to test more groups of people was a reason for the number of confirmed cases not declining as quickly as it could have.



Quote:

“The death toll is very closely related to elderly care homes. More than half of the people that have died have lived in elderly care homes.” Tegnell said, adding that he and the Public Health Agency are “still very concerned about the elderly.”

“It’s the group we said we needed to protect,” he said, adding that the agency was working with homes to see what improvements could be made to lower risk factors.



https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/no-lockdown-in-sweden-but-stockholm-could-see-herd-immunity-in-weeks.html

New Zealand is half the population of Sweden and has almost elminated the virus in their country


but does that mean much if they reopen and get a second wave while Sweden manages not to?

Quote:

New Zealand: 1,436 cases; 12 deaths; 4.9 million population

New Zealand remains in a stringent national lockdown as Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern attempts to eliminate the virus completely from the country in a matter of weeks.

So far Ardern’s tough lockdown (no one leaves their neighbourhood) has had the desired effect. To date the number of new cases has fallen to single digits with no more than a dozen people in hospital. She is expected to ease restrictions this week and allow food delivery and some school reopenings. But most public places will remain closed and travel will be restricted. “The last thing we want to do is move out of level four and lose everything,” she said.

But a group of academics led by Simon Thornley, a public health expert at the University of Auckland, has started a raucous debate by accusing the government of trying to “squash a flea with a sledgehammer and bring the house down.”

Thornley argued that COVID-19 wasn’t all that bad and that older people with medical conditions were going to die sooner than later anyways. “Something was going to get them, it just happens to be this.“

Thornley proposed that the government cancel its level four emergency and let schools and universities reopen, leisure activities resume and domestic travel continue. “Those over 60 and/or with underlying health conditions and uncomfortable returning to work, could continue to work at home with support from their employer and government,” added Thornley.

Critics called Thornley’s proposal a form of medical apartheid that would create more problems than it would solve. They said it wouldn’t protect Maori or Pacific peoples among whom at-risk conditions for COVID-19 are the highest. (Unlike Canada New Zealand publishes racial data on COVID-19 cases.)

Michael Baker, one of the architects of New Zealand’s elimination policy, argued that the country is now in an enviable position with actual choices. Its tough lockdown “is the least bad strategy because it gives us an exit strategy and that exit strategy seems tantalizingly close: that we can transition to a COVID-free New Zealand in the foreseeable future.”

The country is now expected to roll out more testing and contact tracing to eliminate the virus combined with mandatory quarantine for travellers.

Defenders of New Zealand’s approach said relaxing measures for all but the most vulnerable would produce Sweden’s poor results protecting seniors.



Quote:

Sweden: 14,777 cases; 1,580 deaths; 10.2 million population

Sweden has continued its so-called soft approach amid blistering criticism from many infectious disease experts. From the outset Anders Tegnell, the state’s chief epidemiologist, chose a radical course: gradual exposure overtime to achieve significant herd immunity which Sweden expects to reach in a couple of weeks.

Tegnell has argued that his laissez faire method might garner more deaths and infections in the short term, but could prevent a second wave or a national lockdown. Unlike its more conservative neighbours, Sweden did not shut down. Citizens over 70 were advised to stay at home while schools and many restaurants remained open with guidelines for social distancing.

Last week a group of the nation’s most prominent 22 doctors and virologists demanded that Tegnell resign. They also accused Sweden’s Public Health Agency of failing to prepare a proper strategy. Critics, too, have compared Finland’s low death rate (it locked down Helsinki) to Sweden’s (about 10 times greater) as further evidence of the failure of the “Swedish model.” Tegnell has replied that Finland is in a different phase of the pandemic, and it only has half the population of Sweden.

Virologist Lena Einhorn has taken Tegnell to task for insufficient testing and ignoring the importance of silent carriers who have been driving the pandemic everywhere. “We have no idea how widespread the coronavirus is in Sweden. And until we get the answer, we have to change our approach to this deadly epidemic,” she wrote in a local paper.

Meanwhile the virus has illuminated Sweden’s social weaknesses. It has infiltrated nearly half the country’s elderly care homes and hit immigrant populations in Stockholm hard. (Swedish ski tourists returning from the Italian Alps originally seeded the contagion.)

To date Somali-born residents in Sweden are over-represented among those in need of hospital care for COVID-19, as are people born in Africa or the Middle East. Swedes mostly live in single-person households, but multiple generations in immigrant neighborhoods share the same crowded space. About 25 per cent of Sweden’s population are of immigrant descent.

In response to the criticism the Swedish government plans to ramp up testing by 50,000-100,000 tests per week. Police officers and emergency responders will be given priority.

Although Sweden’s politicians have deferred to Tegnell’s radical plan, they passed a new law, effective till the end of June, that gives the government the authority to temporarily close businesses, shut down ports and airports, and limit public events. Prime Minister Stefan Lofven has told Swedes to prepare for thousands more deaths.



https://thetyee.ca/News/2020/04/20/Sweden-New-Zealand-Pandemic-Policies/


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 1
    #26622498 - 04/23/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleShroomerInTheRye
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues] * 2
    #26622499 - 04/23/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Wikipedia isn't a scholarly source of information, but I gotta say, I'm impressed with the metrics available in this article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Sweden#Debate


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Invisiblepirate-blues
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26622507 - 04/23/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm still on the clock at the moment, but you have a valid question and I will try and cohesively lay out what I personally dislike about his response to the virus as fast as I can, as someone in a hard hit area of a hard hit state(idk if there is a huge disparity geographically in how people feel about his response to this, but from my perspective there are a lot of thing he specifically did that I think have been hurting us more than helping us, for sure).



1. Lack of any real cohesive national plan that is instead forcing states to form their own unions.
2. Lack of PPE, lack of testing materials. Saying it's the state's problem is one thing - but FEMA is currently seizing PPE from states like NY. Trump is condemning governors like Hogan over in MD(who is himself, a republican, and this is not just a red vs blue issue, I'm genuinely not trying to turn it into one) for using the tools at their disposal to actually acquire their own PPE from South Korea.
3. Inciting people with his 'liberate' messages.
4. Pushing an unproven medication that is causing more deaths.
5. Flip flopping in general. Pushing states to reopen and then condemning people like Brian Kemp(rightfully so, tbh) because someone finally talked sense into him. While I'm glad he flopped to a position that makes more sense to me, mixed messages in a time of crisis lead to more deaths. Any good leader should understand the importance of clarity during this time.
6. Gutting the team that was supposed to deal with this back in 2018, even though we knew that we were overdue for a Pandemic, and have known for quite some time.
7. An overall lack of action - we had intelligence back on this very early. Realistically I would've liked to see the measures we took in March take effect in February. I think we would be in a much, much better place.



There is more that he's done and I can provide some more specific examples and citations a little later on after I get a couple more things done for work and sign off for the day.


Edited by pirate-blues (04/23/20 02:32 PM)


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26622509 - 04/23/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Tantrika that Anders Tegnell guy is not really popular in Swedish scientist scene because his tactics.

Personally I see him as continum of swedish nazis. His aproach is let the old ones die for the sake of herdimmunity and capitalism.

NO ES BUENOS!


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues] * 2
    #26622533 - 04/23/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It is becoming increasingly standard for docs to rx prophylactic anticoagulants to all hospitalized covid patients. Likely to see reduced mortality over time as a result.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26622559 - 04/23/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


just wonder why the world leader who acted before others is the one being most heavily criticized for not acting fast enough. and why democrats say the same things as trump about potential medication for example or whatever but only Trump gets shit when some non trump supporter drinks coy pond cleaner.

it doesnt seem to make much sense.




he didnt act before all leaders. My county started taking it seriously and shutting down businesses weeks before counties in the northeast, where the problem was already far worse. Essential Stores begin implementing special social distancing measures like restrictions on number of ppl in the store weeks before other states. The fact that 14% of houston's population is employed by the medical field probably played a big role in this. Those working in hospitals started getting primers about covid in early february, and almost everyone here knows someome who is a medical worker. Mass consciousness of the threat at an earlier time resulted in simple behavior changes at an earlier time that mitigated the spread

The result is what you see. We have had, last i checked, fewer than 40 deaths in houston.

To be be sure, there are other factors at play here, but it is simply a fact that if the president had taken earlier action, it is entirely possible that this infection could have been contained, or at least wouldnt have gotten so bad that the economy had to take a massive hit.

His claim that nobody could have done better is just about the most narcisstic thing you could say.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: HamHead] * 2
    #26622565 - 04/23/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)





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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26622568 - 04/23/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I think it would be very unwise for the feds to make one "cohesive plan" for all 50 states which have drastically different risk factors and dynamics at play. state rights is what federalism is about.

A PPE shortage is not an exclusively american problem.  only certain facilities are lisenced to make things like respirators. if regulation were loosened supposedly more people could be making PPE. if we are going to say surgical masks and bandanas are ok, why not allow more people and facilities to make N95s?

there are some officials who are going too far. saying anyone who wants rhe restrictions to be eased just wants people to die and doesnt care about old people and they are jsut some "science denier". there wss one official i really wish i remember who, basically she said if peopke use their first amendment right to protest they will be locked down even longer. thats not ok. so dont blame trump for that.

there are people who are being crazy saying its a hoax, protesting in big crowds but those peoplw are idiots you cant really blame trump's "liberation" language for that silly behaviour.

if he is responsible for pushing hydroxy chloroquine then so did Cuomo and plenty of others.

People have been warning that the USA is not prepared for a pandemic throughout the Bush and Obama administrations too.

The reserve of N95s was depleted a great dela under Obama and both Obama amd Trump failed to restock them.

Idk any official who hasnt flip flopped on this pandemic response in ome way or another. thats been a universal theme especially in the west. the WHO started this saying there were no human to human transmissions, medical experts advised against wearing masks.

Most officials acted late.

again, im not saying trump couldnt have done better. im asking what he did so uniquely wrong, that was so unprecidented in its incompetence that such a huge portion of the blame for this is being put on solely his shoulders.

I wasnt asking for stuff he did wrong. plenty of people could be accused of acting poorly in similar ways.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26622573 - 04/23/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

There is a pretty clear relationship between the proportion of people in positions of power and influence that have a scientific background in a country and that countrys outcomes. South korea and germany are obvious examples of this. Even south korean pop culture film is clearly more heavily influenced by real science. The south korean movie flu is highly dramatized but prescient in many ways.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #26622579 - 04/23/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Ridiculous for the Feds to .... be the Feds you say? That obese tier of gov gets its hands in practically everything else in some way shape or form, not to mention they Had a group to handle this...but it was dismantled.  :mypoorbrain:

Cmon Banana.....


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26622582 - 04/23/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
There is a pretty clear relationship between the proportion of people in positions of power and influence that have a scientific background in a country and that countrys outcomes. South korea and germany are obvious examples of this. Even south korean pop culture film is clearly more heavily influenced by real science. The south korean movie flu is highly dramatized but prescient in many ways.




I can’t tell you how proud I am of S. Korea as a country.  I root for them in an obsessed kind of way.  Love the people and the place.


:surprise:  They give me a chub.  It’s what I wish the US was like, and what the US once might have been...


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Invisiblepirate-blues
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 2
    #26622584 - 04/23/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I think it would be very unwise for the feds to make one "cohesive plan" for all 50 states which have drastically different risk factors and dynamics at play. state rights is what federalism is about.

A PPE shortage is not an exclusively american problem.  only certain facilities are lisenced to make things like respirators. if regulation were loosened supposedly more people could be making PPE. if we are going to say surgical masks and bandanas are ok, why not allow more people and facilities to make N95s?

there are some officials who are going too far. saying anyone who wants rhe restrictions to be eased just wants people to die and doesnt care about old people and they are jsut some "science denier". there wss one official i really wish i remember who, basically she said if peopke use their first amendment right to protest they will be locked down even longer. thats not ok. so dont blame trump for that.

there are people who are being crazy saying its a hoax, protesting in big crowds but those peoplw are idiots you cant really blame trump's "liberation" language for that silly behaviour.

if he is responsible for pushing hydroxy chloroquine then so did Cuomo and plenty of others.

People have been warning that the USA is not prepared for a pandemic throughout the Bush and Obama administrations too.

The reserve of N95s was depleted a great dela under Obama and both Obama amd Trump failed to restock them.

Idk any official who hasnt flip flopped on this pandemic response in ome way or another. thats been a universal theme especially in the west. the WHO started this saying there were no human to human transmissions, medical experts advised against wearing masks.

Most officials acted late.

again, im not saying trump couldnt have done better. im asking what he did so uniquely wrong, that was so unprecidented in its incompetence that such a huge portion of the blame for this is being put on solely his shoulders.

I wasnt asking for stuff he did wrong. plenty of people could be accused of acting poorly in similar ways.






lol, I mean, show me another respectable(so Bolsonaro doesn't count) world leader that is inciting riots and protests against lockdowns (that are following the re-opening guidelines the white house itself is advocating).


He's the captain here, it all falls on him. Especially as he likes to claim absolute power. Can't have that without also taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions. And imo, I could give a shit about precedence or unprecedence. This is a piss poor response, and more people died as a result of it. I don't give a fuck that the UK is doing just as badly, I don't give a fuck that Brazil's president is literally out rallying against lockdowns himself. None of it negates the fact that we need better leadership.

I quite frankly don't understand your argument, no, we're not THE WORST response in the world. We're also not exactly doing so hot, and maybe it'll take the rest of the country getting hit as bad as the Northeast and some other major population hubs to realize it, but this should have been handled better.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26622588 - 04/23/20 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Ridiculous for the Feds to .... be the Feds you say? That obese tier of gov gets its hands in practically everything else in some way shape or form, not to mention they Had a group to handle this...but it was dismantled.  :mypoorbrain:

Cmon Banana.....



i dont think new york and colorado should be given the same set of binding rules that they must follow. sue me.

just because more collatteral damage may be required in new york doesnt mena we should be striving to do as much damage everywhere else.

its clear that they dont need to same level of restriction and why impose unneeded restriction which will harm people?

and as I said pandemic preparedness wasnt Obamas top priority either.

for the last time im not saying he coulsnt have acted better. idk how many times i have to say it. im looking for unique incompetence to justify him receiving the lions share of the blame.

not trying to say hes blameless, just trying to make sure blame is not being unfairly distributed.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: BANANA.MAN] * 2
    #26622595 - 04/23/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Fair enough, but when addressing the US citizens on live TV from the White House press conferences the president can not justify his spouting of paradoxical instructions and mixed messages to the public during a time of pandemic in which he announced to the world that the US was undergoing a national emergency.  Look at the schism in the public’s responses to it....

Saying ...when he’s the President !!! ... that “the CDC advises everyone to wear a mask in public - but I’m not going to wear a mask - it’s voluntary - and I’m not wearing a mask”. Something or other to that effect.

Just things that seem little, that from a coolheaded perspective is in all actuality the most counter productive kind of mixed msgs to send to the public.

And that’s just 1 ex.  And I think I said it in terms more rational than he did.

That’s dropping the ball so hard it’s plain for a child to see.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (04/23/20 03:04 PM)


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26622600 - 04/23/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

pirate-blues said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
I think it would be very unwise for the feds to make one "cohesive plan" for all 50 states which have drastically different risk factors and dynamics at play. state rights is what federalism is about.

A PPE shortage is not an exclusively american problem.  only certain facilities are lisenced to make things like respirators. if regulation were loosened supposedly more people could be making PPE. if we are going to say surgical masks and bandanas are ok, why not allow more people and facilities to make N95s?

there are some officials who are going too far. saying anyone who wants rhe restrictions to be eased just wants people to die and doesnt care about old people and they are jsut some "science denier". there wss one official i really wish i remember who, basically she said if peopke use their first amendment right to protest they will be locked down even longer. thats not ok. so dont blame trump for that.

there are people who are being crazy saying its a hoax, protesting in big crowds but those peoplw are idiots you cant really blame trump's "liberation" language for that silly behaviour.

if he is responsible for pushing hydroxy chloroquine then so did Cuomo and plenty of others.

People have been warning that the USA is not prepared for a pandemic throughout the Bush and Obama administrations too.

The reserve of N95s was depleted a great dela under Obama and both Obama amd Trump failed to restock them.

Idk any official who hasnt flip flopped on this pandemic response in ome way or another. thats been a universal theme especially in the west. the WHO started this saying there were no human to human transmissions, medical experts advised against wearing masks.

Most officials acted late.

again, im not saying trump couldnt have done better. im asking what he did so uniquely wrong, that was so unprecidented in its incompetence that such a huge portion of the blame for this is being put on solely his shoulders.

I wasnt asking for stuff he did wrong. plenty of people could be accused of acting poorly in similar ways.






lol, I mean, show me another respectable(so Bolsonaro doesn't count) world leader that is inciting riots and protests against lockdowns (that are following the re-opening guidelines the white house itself is advocating).


He's the captain here, it all falls on him. Especially as he likes to claim absolute power. Can't have that without also taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions. And imo, I could give a shit about precedence or unprecedence. This is a piss poor response, and more people died as a result of it. I don't give a fuck that the UK is doing just as badly, I don't give a fuck that Brazil's president is literally out rallying against lockdowns himself. None of it negates the fact that we need better leadership.

I quite frankly don't understand your argument, no, we're not THE WORST response in the world. We're also not exactly doing so hot, and maybe it'll take the rest of the country getting hit as bad as the Northeast and some other major population hubs to realize it, but this should have been handled better.



hes "inciting riots"? ok. whatever you say.

people have a right to protest. i dont see whats wrong with protesting and the president supporting them in doing so defending them against the media calling them idiots who dont care if people die for sharing their concerns.

I was saying from the beggining of this discussion "i dont see why hes getting most of the blame." and asked for what he did uniquely wrong. you gave a list of what he in particular has done wrong.

you have now moved the goal posts to say "im not saying hes doing particularly bad, that doesnt matter, hes the rpesident he should have done better"

then why did you even respond to me? because as i clarified, i agree he could have done better.

i wasnt saying he didnt do anything wrong i was saying he doesnt deserve the share of the blame hes getting. you tried to say he was indeed acting uniquely wrong, now you are back peddling by saying thats not the point. well it was the point i was making, so if thats not the piint you are arguing with then idk who you are arguing with or why because its not me.

and im not simply comparing usa to other countries. im comparing the response of Trump with the repsonse of other American officials. such as democrats who criticized his action then turned around and criticized his lack of action and democrats who said the same stuff about hydroxy chloroquine.


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