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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618735 - 04/21/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
...the conclusion of hard solipsism.




Which is...?


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618741 - 04/21/20 09:03 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
...the conclusion of hard solipsism.




Which is...?



That only you can be known to exist in some form, everything else does not. Soft solipsism says it can’t be verified.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618742 - 04/21/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

LOL, that even ones realization itself is as empty as it’s subject.

Heart sutra comes to mind.  Ohhhh Shariputra...


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618751 - 04/21/20 09:07 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
...the conclusion of hard solipsism.




Which is...?



That only you can be known to exist in some form, everything else does not. Soft solipsism says it can’t be verified.




Okay, but this goes right back to my questions about the Self
how can you be known to exist in some form -- is this building on the "I think therefore I am" philosophy?
what is the parameter being used as a baseline in this philisophical school?

the baseline in Yogacara is that there is no permanent self that can be known, and that truth can be extended to all other objects of the mind
am not comprehending what defines solipsism as a philisophical view independent of nihilism
never studied Western philosophy, so only familiar with a few abstract concepts and more popular names


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618771 - 04/21/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Because if there was no entity then this would not be taking place. It’s not an I think therefor I am, were there no being experiencing all this then there would be no questions.

But as I said, attacking the self doesn’t negate the reality that our sense perception can’t be verified nor the existence of other minds and people or even an external reality. Vedanta says there is an external reality but solipsism doesn’t even go that far


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618774 - 04/21/20 09:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Now I must contemplate suicide, since it seems like the only escape from all of it. I don’t want to go on living doubting other people


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618793 - 04/21/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Because if there was no entity then this would not be taking place. It’s not an I think therefor I am, were there no being experiencing all this then there would be no questions.

But as I said, attacking the self doesn’t negate the reality that our sense perception can’t be verified nor the existence of other minds and people or even an external reality. Vedanta says there is an external reality but solipsism doesn’t even go that far




Vedanta says the only actual external reality is ultimate reality (Brahman)
and that the Self (Atman) is identical with the Brahman
The Brahman/Atman complex is the "entity" manifesting the experienced reality
hence, non-dual

Later it would be posited "why does the reality become manifested" -- to which one of my favourite schools of thought developed
it's all just here for the enjoyment of it

but it should be fairly noted that Advaita Vedanta was a singular school specifically focused on holding a non-dual view of existence
you can find other philisophical traditions
want to say there was a tradition of Vaita Vedanta (Dualistic philosophy based on the end of the Vedic teachings)
but looking up the progenitor of that tradition resulted in instead finding Vishishtadvaita which appears to be the non-dual school but with a different interpretation for how things manifest
Quote:

Vishishtadvaita (IAST Viśiṣṭādvaita; Sanskrit: विशिष्टाद्वैत) is one of the most popular schools of the Vedanta school of Hindu philosophy. Vedanta literally means the end of the Vedas. VishishtAdvaita (literally "Advaita with uniqueness; qualifications") is a non-dualistic school of Vedanta philosophy. It is non-dualism of the qualified whole, in which Brahman alone exists, but is characterized by multiplicity. It can be described as qualified monism or qualified non-dualism or attributive monism. It is a school of Vedanta philosophy which believes in all diversity subsuming to an underlying unity.

Ramanuja, the 11-12th century philosopher and the main proponent of Vishishtadvaita philosophy contends that the Prasthanatrayi ("The three courses"), namely the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Brahma Sutras are to be interpreted in a way that shows this unity in diversity, for any other way would violate their consistency. Vedanta Desika defines Vishishtadvaita using the statement, Asesha Chit-Achit Prakaaram Brahmaikameva Tatvam : Brahman, as qualified by the sentient and insentient modes (or attributes), is the only reality.




am so certain in my memory that there was a school of Dualism based around Vishnu as the primary creator of reality that all else is independent from
but that also heavily characterizes the Bhakti movement, so could certainly be mixing up some of these things


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618814 - 04/21/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Am a dum dum
mixed up Ramanuja and Madhvacharya

Quote:

Dvaita Vedanta (/ˈdvaɪtə vɪˈdɑːntə/; Sanskrit: द्वैत वेदान्त) is a sub-school in the Vedanta tradition of Hindu philosophy. Alternatively known as Bhedavāda, Tattvavāda and Bimbapratibimbavāda, the Dvaita Vedanta sub-school was founded by the 13th-century scholar Madhvacharya.[1] The Dvaita Vedanta school believes that God (Vishnu, supreme soul) and the individual souls (jīvātman) exist as independent realities, and these are distinct, being said that Vishnu (Narayana) is independent, and souls are dependent on him. The Dvaita school contrasts with the other two major sub-schools of Vedanta, the Advaita Vedanta of Adi Shankara which posits nondualism – that ultimate reality (Brahman) and human soul are identical and all reality is interconnected oneness, and Vishishtadvaita of Ramanuja which posits qualified nondualism – that ultimate reality (Brahman) and human soul are different but with the potential to be identical.[2][3]

Dvaita (द्वैत) is a Sanskrit word that means "duality, dualism".[4] The term refers to any premise, particularly in theology on the material and the divine, where two principles (truths) or realities are posited to exist simultaneously and independently.[4][1]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvaita_Vedanta

anyway, important qualitative take-away is there was a lot of diverging thought on the exact interpretation and consolidation of the teachings of the Vedas


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618829 - 04/21/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Solipsism doesn’t even posit an external reality.

Sigh, I’m just tired right now. It’s as exhausting as it was back then and worse I think.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618834 - 04/21/20 09:45 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Solipsism doesn’t even posit an external reality.

Sigh, I’m just tired right now. It’s as exhausting as it was back then and worse I think.




Then what is the experiences that are had?
If there is not even a provisional external reality for the entity to experience, how are you here discussing it?

The Atman/Brahman is simultaneously the reality that it experiences, am not comprehending what solipsism holds to as a philisophically consistent position
the "soft" solipsism seemed to imply that "things" are out there even if they are only imaginary
then you suggested "hard" solipsism views only the experiencing entity as real but the experiences as not real
now you appear to be saying there is not even an external reality of unreal experiences for the real entity to imagine experiencing

Can understand why you are tired,
nothing about solipsism seems to actually make a consistent enough sense to refer to it without having to constantly work the brain to justify it


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618869 - 04/21/20 10:06 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)



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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10]
    #26618873 - 04/21/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

here's a thought, if no one else is real then who wrote the wikipedia article? :shocked:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10] * 2
    #26618879 - 04/21/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism




Yeah already went back and read that
it is the same article my post in the Wish thread regarding Advaita Vedanta first quoted

The core take away, to me, at the time had been:
Quote:

The concept of the Self in the philosophy of Advaita could be interpreted as solipsism. However, the transhuman, theological implications of the Self in Advaita protect it from true solipsism as found in the west. Similarly, the Vedantic text Yogavasistha, escapes charge of solipsism because the real "I" is thought to be nothing but the absolute whole looked at through a particular unique point of interest.[22]




but you have since gone on to explain holding to a position within the philisophical tradition where only the entity is real

Advaita Vedanta then posits that Brahman/Atman manifests reality of themself
wherein the Atman 'individual' transitions to become every single individual experiencing point of view
but none of the external world has an actual existence beyond its reality as Brahman


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika]
    #26618890 - 04/21/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Except solipsism doesn’t even do that. As it said on there, it doesn’t posit an external world for there is no evidence of it


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: deff]
    #26618891 - 04/21/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
here's a thought, if no one else is real then who wrote the wikipedia article? :shocked:




Two Truths

Quote:

The Buddhist doctrine of the two truths (Wylie: bden pa gnyis) differentiates between two levels of satya (A Sanskrit and Pali word meaning truth or reality) in the teaching of the Buddha: the "conventional" or "provisional" (saṁvṛti) truth, and the "ultimate" (paramārtha) truth.[1]

The exact meaning varies between the various Buddhist schools and traditions. The best known interpretation is from the Madhyamaka school of Mahāyāna Buddhism, whose founder was Nagarjuna.[1] For Nagarjuna, the two truths are epistemological truths. The phenomenal world is accorded a provisional existence. The character of the phenomenal world is declared to be neither real nor unreal, but logically indeterminable. Ultimately, phenomena are empty (sunyata) of an inherent self or essence, but exist depending on other phenomena (Pratītyasamutpāda).[1]

In Chinese Buddhism, the Madhyamaka position is accepted and the two truths refer to two ontological truths. Reality exists of two levels, a relative level and an absolute level.[2] Based on their understanding of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Chinese supposed that the teaching of the Buddha-nature was, as stated by that sutra, the final Buddhist teaching, and that there is an essential truth above sunyata and the two truths.[3]

The śūnyatā doctrine is an attempt to show that it is neither proper nor strictly justifiable to regard any metaphysical system as absolutely valid. It doesn't lead to nihilism but strikes a middle course between excessive naivete and excessive scepticism.[1]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Thanatos10] * 1
    #26618893 - 04/21/20 10:21 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Except solipsism doesn’t even do that. As it said on there, it doesn’t posit an external world for there is no evidence of it




So it participates in an external world but does not even provisionally recognize the existence of the external world it engages with?

What a throw-away philosophy


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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26618907 - 04/21/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm aware of the two truths :smile: with respect to that my statement would be if no one else is conventionally real (something that solipsism implies or at least says cannot be known)


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: deff] * 1
    #26618918 - 04/21/20 10:32 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
I'm aware of the two truths :smile: with respect to that my statement would be if no one else is conventionally real (something that solipsism implies or at least says cannot be known)




I just really wanted to post about it for general consideration and knew you would recognize it :lol:
:heart:


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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: Tantrika] * 3
    #26618921 - 04/21/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

:cheers: :heart: it is a good doctrine!


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: I'm beginning to think Thanatos10 is a figment of our collective imagination [Re: deff] * 1
    #26618955 - 04/21/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I have been meaning to mention it for days...but I took it for granted.

Tantrika got it though.

The 2 Truths doctrine!!! Classic example of why a tradition that has dealt with all the roadblocks and hindrances to understanding ourselves and the world around us , has merit and virtue . 



It’s helps, a lot.  Think of it as a skillful means to understanding it all, that helps us stay sane. While giving us a means to reconcile and even coalesce the mundane relative truth and the Supramundane absolute truth into a single whole with 2 sides.

another way to think of it as the flaming sword of wisdom that cuts through the proverbial Gordian knot !

The brains capacity for compartmentalizations sure comes in handy sometimes  :dancingbacon:

Gotta love fractals.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (04/21/20 11:02 PM)


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