|
Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 8,244
Loc: Samsara
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26613368 - 04/19/20 04:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The best "transdermal" absorption occurs under the tongue! That's the only way I'll ever dose LSD.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
|
VanityKills
Lone Spore


Registered: 02/06/20
Posts: 15
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#26613711 - 04/19/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I get the impression that the OP is aware that sublingual dosing (under the tongue) is the most effective and popular way to take LSD and is only asking about transdermal absorption for curiosity and research.
I agree with the others though ; you usually only hear vague stories at best about this happening. I have heard of people entertaining the thought that maybe they tripped harder than intended due to some absorption while splitting tabs, but chances are this is just placebo + set/setting + unexpected potency.
I haven't heard of anyone doing an isolated experiment with transdermal alone BUT I'm excited to hear your results!
--------------------
|
Korean Jesus



Registered: 11/13/19
Posts: 554
Loc: United States
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: VanityKills]
#26614136 - 04/20/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The dude who discovered LSD tripped from accidental contact, not ingestion
|
The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: Korean Jesus] 1
#26614146 - 04/20/20 12:34 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think that little white of lie of Alberts was just to help safe face...and his career as a credible/reputable non drug using chemist.
Although like others have mentioned , it’s possible he ingested it on accident via touching his mouth, eyes, etc after getting it on him.
Regardless..of the truth, here we are today.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (04/20/20 12:35 AM)
|
VanityKills
Lone Spore


Registered: 02/06/20
Posts: 15
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26614814 - 04/20/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
This has always been my theory. If Hoffman did indeed spill a vial on himself, and tripped but was completely coherent, the LSD did not absorb very well into his skin... A single drop of lsd can hold multiple reality-shattering doses, if applied with the most viable method. Futhrmore if he didn't even know LSD was psychoactive, I doubt it was a diluted product. The whole "Albert Hoffman spilled it on himself" theory kinda reminds me of Chemical X from the powerpuff girls show haha.
--------------------
|
openmind
curious


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 13,876
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: Korean Jesus]
#26615677 - 04/20/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Korean Jesus said: The dude who discovered LSD tripped from accidental contact, not ingestion
What happened that day (April 16, 1943) is very questionable and up for debate.
Hofmann could have got a small amount on his hands/fingers and touched near his eyes, nose, mouth...or a small amount could have been airborne and he inhaled it.
But like mentioned in my previous post, something that Nichols and other chemists that have synthed LSD point out, most chemists will note that they do not get "high" or dosed when working in the lab and synthing LSD. And swiss chemists/Hofmann in particular was known for being extremely meticulous and clean about their lab work, so it is unlikely that he accidentally dosed himself that day he supposedly had the "first LSD trip".
Something I've thought about, and a hypothesis that Dr. David Nichols has is that Hofmann didn't actually get ANY LSD into his system at all that day, and rather Hofmann had a "spontaneous mystical experience" that day (which Albert Hofmann was prone to, he had several "spontaneous mystical experiences" as a child and through out his life).
"The only hypothesis I can come up with that's consistent with all of these facts is that on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!" - Dr. David Nichols
".....We can't test that hypothesis, but when I saw Albert in Basel a couple years ago, I presented that particular hypothesis to him and said, "What do you think?" He (Albert Hofmann) said, "It's entirely possible." - Dr. David Nichols
One of the main points that made me always question Hofmann's account of what happened that day (April 16, 1943) is that the effects he experienced/documented does not line up with the timeline of an LSD trip, at all....
This particular part from Hofmann's account of what occurred on April 16th 1943 never made sense to me......
"I perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors. After some two hours this condition faded away." -Albert Hofmann
Considering even a relatively low dose of LSD will be pronounced for much longer than 2 hours, especially a dose that's sufficient enough to produce "an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors" ...Considering the duration of LSD, that part of Hofmanns report from that day never added up or made any sense to me, that doesn't line up with the timeline of an LSD trip at all, with either a low or high dose. And LSD is known to linger for a LONG time, it doesn't just fade away...If ol' Hofmann was high enough to be experiencing "an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors", he would have been high for quite a while and even the peak would last much longer than 2 hours.
So for many years, for the longest time I always wondered what was up with that, I always wondered why Hofmann's report about what happened that day was so short in duration....Well, several years ago I saw a talk by Dr. David Nichols (Chemist and Pharmacologist, professor of medicinal chemistry and molecular pharmacology at Purdue University...IIRC Nichols is the one who actually synthesized the LSD that is used in the current MAPS studies...and I think he made the MDMA for the MAPS studies as well), he brings up this aspect of Hofmann's report of what happened on that day (April 16th). I was soooo very glad to finally see this specific aspect addressed, and in our time, who better to do so than Nichols!...
I was so stoked that someone was bringing this up and analyzing it similar to how I was, because it was something that I always got hung up on and wondered about, it just never made sense to me...and I was stoked that it was being done by someone who is reputable and respected and known, Dr. Nichols.
There used to be a video of this talk and the hypothesis that Nichols gave about Hofmann's "first trip" but I can't find it anymore, but I do have the transcript>>>>>
Quote:
(Dr. David Nichols is the one speaking)
Since we're just a slight bit past the 60th anniversary of the discovery of LSD, I thought I would have a little audience participation fun, and give you a little insight into how the scientific process works. Because, often times in this community, "scientist" has somewhat of a pejorative connotation. I want to show you how we're not so different, and do a little experiment.
You know the way science works. We make observations, we develop or formulate a hypothesis that is consistent with those observations, and then we attempt to carry out experiments to test the hypothesis. I don't think we'll be able to carry out the experiments to test the hypothesis, but what I want to do is develop a hypothesis today that I think you'll find very interesting. But the first thing we need to know is what kind of a database we're working with. What I'd like you to do is raise your hand if you have read Albert Hofmann's account of the discovery of LSD.
[nearly everyone in the conference hall raises their hand]
Ah, just as I suspected. So we have a good database, and probably an educated database.
What I want to do now is another experiment. I want you to raise your hand and hold it in the air as long as I am stating things that you hold to be true, and when I say something you believe not to be true, then put your hand down.
So, the first thing I'm going to say, if you believe it to be true, raise your hand, and keep it up there until I say something you disagree with.
On April 16, 1943, when Albert Hofmann accidentally ingested LSD, he ingested at least 25 micrograms. Now keep your hand up until I say something you disagree with.
[most people in the audience raise their hands]
On that same date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 50 micrograms of LSD.
[a few people put their hands down]
On that same date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 75 micrograms.
[several more people put their hands down]
And then again, on that date in 1943, Albert Hofmann ingested at least 100 micrograms.
[more people put their hands down]
On that same date, Albert Hofmann ingested 150 micrograms.
[only a few people still have their hands still up]
Well I think I've already proved the point. I think there's a consensus that Albert Hofmann must have ingested at least 50 to 75 micrograms, and there are people in here who believe he must have ingested 100 or 150 micrograms. Now we've estimated, with this educated database, approximately how much LSD he must have accidentally gotten inside himself.
Now, we'll do the same thing again. In April 1943, after his accidental ingestion, how many people believe that Albert Hofmann would have experienced the effects of LSD for at least 10 hours, based on that dose?
[Several people put their hands up]
Now if we believe he took LSD, and if we believe he took 50 to 75 micrograms -- that's the context -- how many people believe the effects should have lasted at least 8 hours. [many more hands go up] How many believe the effects would have lasted at least 6 hours? [more hands go up] How believe the effects would have lasted at least four hours? [nearly all hands are up at this point]
Now, how many people believe that the effects of a 50-75 microgram dose of LSD would only have lasted two hours? [nearly all hands go down]
We read from his account: "I perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors. After some two hours (emphasis added) this condition faded away." (Hofmann, 1983).
Well now, that was a conundrum for me. I read that and I thought, "gee I'm a scientist, and this doesn't make sense with what I know." And for most of you, I think, that doesn't make sense either. So, the question: how can we formulate a hypothesis consistent with this observation? We need to consider a few things.
We know that Albert originally synthesized LSD in 1938 as part of an ambitious program to make a number of lysergamides. LSD-25 was only the 25th in the series. I actually don't know how many of those compounds he made, but let's assume he only made 30. So we had up to 30 in the series. He may have made many more actually, but at least say 30. And they were all tested; he sent the pharmacology department LSD-25, 24, 23... and so forth. They then say, "LSD-25: not interesting." The assays of that day really didn't provide much information; they were very unsophisticated. But five years later, Albert has a hunch that the pharmacology department missed something on this 25th in the series.
Now that's kind of peculiar. I'm familiar with the drug industry, and I've actually started a small company myself. Imagine you're a musician, and you've created this musical piece. It's really wonderful; it's one of the best pieces you've ever written; you play it for people, they think it's great. And this one artist comes down. He's very creative but he has no musical talent at all, really tone deaf, he listens to your music and he says, "Man that sucks. You missed something. There's something missing." Now you as a musician are probably going to have some sort of a gut reaction to that. And even though the pharmacologist at Sandoz was probably a friend of Albert's, can you imagine this chemist coming down the hall and saying, "You know, I made this compound five years ago, out of this whole series, and there's this one compound, LSD-25, that you said was uninteresting... but you must have missed something. I just have this 'peculiar presentiment,' this strange hunch that you missed something." You're going to look at Albert and say, "You know, really, I'm an expert in pharmacology Albert. We tested it very well."
The Germans and the Swiss are very precise chemists, and pharmacologists, and scientists. There wouldn't have been any question about this being somehow mis-analyzed the first time.
This is another interesting point. Why the 25th? We know that only the 25th in the series was active. Any other compound that he made -- and I've made many of them, we've tested many of them -- none of the others approach LSD, either in its sophistication or in its potency. Only the 25th. And this is unusual. In pharmacology often you have a regular series. If we think of things like DOB, and DOI, there's a kind of regular progression. They all fit into a kind of subgenus. And LSD doesn't. We don't call the other members of the series Albert made as LSD something or other, but if we had LSD-23, 24 and 26, they would all be one-tenth the activity of LSD-25. Peculiar presentiment indeed!
As I've said, Swiss and German chemists have a reputation -- today and back then -- for being absolutely meticulous. If we had gone into Albert's lab at Sandoz in 1943, we would probably have found everything in its place, organized in an obsessively neat manner. No dirty glassware, no trash on the floor, meticulous. How in the world did a meticulous Swiss chemist get 50 to 75 micrograms or more of LSD into his body? We don't know.
Another fact: I've made LSD in my lab on many occasions for research purposes, possibly in not so meticulous a manner as Albert Hofmann. Nothing ever happened. I had several graduate students who made LSD as an intermediate for projects. No accidental ingestion of LSD ever occurred. A technician in my lab makes it routinely because we use it as a drug to train our rats. He's learned by experience that he never gets high, nothing ever happens. And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.
The other fact we need to think about is when Albert was a child, he had a spontaneous mystical experience. Now depending on whether you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or whatever, we could say that Albert had a predisposition to altered states of consciousness.
So what facts do we know? I'm going to formulate a hypothesis. He took a dose that by your consensus should have lasted certainly more than two hours, but it only lasted two hours. He was a meticulous chemist -- a Swiss chemist. Anyone I know who's worked with LSD -- and Nick Sand painted a solution of it on his arm -- didn't get high. This doesn't make sense. And what is this peculiar presentiment? Why the 25th in the series? Inexplicable! And, he was predisposed to altered states of consciousness.
The only hypothesis I can come up with that's consistent with all of these facts is that on April 16, 1943, Albert Hofmann did not get LSD in his body at all. He had a spontaneous mystical experience!
Now if I were working in the lab with a new chemical, and I started having kaleidoscopic visions of wonderful colors and patterns, my first thought wouldn't be that I was having a spontaneous experience. My first thought would be, "What was that new chemical I was working with? I need to tell Sasha about it." [laughter]
I think that's what happened, that's the hypothesis. We can't test that hypothesis, but when I saw Albert in Basel a couple years ago, I presented that particular hypothesis to him and said, "What do you think?" He said, "It's entirely possible."
So, that's our little experiment, and I think most of you really didn't think seriously about the discovery of LSD, but it puts a different light on it.
Now one aside to that we could then bring up is this. If the force that caused him to have this peculiar presentiment -- and very peculiar it is -- is the same force that induced him to have this mystical experience, which caused him to focus on this chemical, we can hope it might happen again.
https://www.erowid.org/general/conferences/conference_mindstates4_nichols.shtml
Sry for the long post, but I try to bring this up when ever it is relevant. Because so many folks think Hofmann must have spilled some on his skin or he accidentally dosed himself somehow that day of the first "LSD trip"...but from looking at the details of what happened that day, it doesn't sound like he was experiencing a "true" acid trip, there's a good chance he didn't actually get any LSD into his system at all that day....and it wasn't until a few days later, on the 19th/bicycle day, that the first LSD trip actually occurred when he dosed 250mcg .
-OM
.
--------------------
|
poisoned
untitled



Registered: 04/17/13
Posts: 1,738
Loc: Yurop
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: openmind]
#26617131 - 04/21/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
He worked in a lab with LSD and the logical conclusion is that he had a spontaneous mystical experience? Yeah, it's possible, but highly unlikely. Doesn't pass the occam razor.
Do you know what else LSD does? It can warp your perception of time. IMO, Albert accidentally ingested LSD in a non-transdermal way and got his essay a bit wrong.
|
Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,233
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 8 hours, 29 minutes
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: poisoned] 1
#26617379 - 04/21/20 10:25 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I've spilt vials on myself to no affect, and I have got crystal on my hand before, you don't absorb anything. What it does do though if you're around enough LSD like some people feel tingling in their hands while holding sheets or vials, it does have an energetic effect you can feel and is pretty intense, but physically you won't get high
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
|
openmind
curious


Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 13,876
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: poisoned] 1
#26617845 - 04/21/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
poisoned said: He worked in a lab with LSD and the logical conclusion is that he had a spontaneous mystical experience? Yeah, it's possible, but highly unlikely. Doesn't pass the occam razor.
Do you know what else LSD does? It can warp your perception of time. IMO, Albert accidentally ingested LSD in a non-transdermal way and got his essay a bit wrong.
Hofmann had several spontaneous mystical experiences through out his lifetime, so it was something he experienced before, even as a child it was something he experienced. Spontaneous mystical experiences occurred several times through out his life, he talks about them in some of his books. Considering it was something that happened to him several times through out his life I don't think it's all that far fetched to say he may have experienced that on that day/16th of April.
His reports from what happened that day mention the effects only lasted 2 hours, LSD lasts a whole lot longer than 2 hours. There is no dose of LSD that will only give effects for 2 hours then fade away, there is no dose of LSD that will give a "peak" that only lasts 2 hours then fades away, that part does not line up with the duration of LSD at all...If he had a full on 10+ hour trip, I don't think he would have documented it as lasting only 2 hours then fading away. Even if one was dosed with a huge dose that totally melts their reality for 10+ hours, they will still have memory of around when the effects started and ended.
The dude was a swiss chemist, if he was actually dosed with LSD I don't think he would have documented a profound/long lasting/full on LSD trip as lasting only 2 hours and then fading away. He was coherent enough to describe what he was experiencing, “not unpleasant, intoxicated-like condition characterized by an extremely stimulated imagination... "an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors". I don't think that if one is coherent enough to document those effects that they would be so out of it/warped that they can't remember when the effects started/ended and document an entire LSD trip as only lasting 2 hours then fading away.
And considering Albert was meticulous, and considering that many chemist over the decades that synth & work with L mention they do not get high/dosed in the lab.
I don't think that hypothesis of what happened that day it's highly unlikely at all . I'm not saying that's what happened for sure, no way to test that hypothesis, even Hofmann himself said it's possible that's what happened that day...But to me it fits a bit better than the hypothesis that he got dosed with an unknown amount of LSD, had a full on acid trip, but he only documented the trip as lasting 2 hours.
From the moment one usually starts to feel LSD to the moment one is reaching the peak intensity takes 2 hours or more alone...Then there's another 4 to 5 hours or peaking/tripping intensely, then another 2 to 3 hours of coming down slowly, then another several hours of lingering stimulation. I just don't think a swiss chemist would mistake an entire full on LSD trip as only lasting 2 hours and then "fading away" .
-OM
.
--------------------
|
SynKyd
ctrl-alt-delite



Registered: 09/27/13
Posts: 1,554
Loc: ૐ
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: openmind]
#26618033 - 04/21/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There seems to be a lot of conflicting information in this thread, so if someone wants to shoot a vial my way I am willing to take one for the team also!
KIDDING OF COURSE 
-------------------- New inclusive poop emojis from Apple!
   
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,593
Loc: Utah
|
Re: Can you Sacrifice 1 Hit for Science? (LSD Experiment) [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#26618501 - 04/21/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
My own pet theory is that hofmann was ingesting each of the lysergamides in the series as he invented them. It was common practice at the time for chemists to be the first to ingest the drugs that they invented especially if they were intended for human consumption. Further, I suspect he might have actually gone looking for a psychoactive chemical. Scientists at the time knew about the effects of ergot intoxication, and I wonder if maybe he went looking for something psychoactive, to see if he could separate the toxic effects from the psychoactive effects.
There is another theory I'd like to propose, and that's that the drug was invented as a wartime effort for use in WW2. LSD was initially synthesized around 1938 and then "rediscovered" around 1945. In between those two dates, something really, really important in the history of his country happened. I find these two dates just a little bit suspicious. I think it's possible that it might have been part of a wartime effort to invent a chemical weapon, or a truth serum, or a mind control drug for use in the war. Maybe there was an organized effort at sandoz involving animal and human trails toward that end.
However, the thing that makes me think this is less likely is the fact that nothing like that ever came out later. Hofmann and others had plenty of opportunity to admit to such things if they happened, but they never did, and there are no documents which indicate that it might have happened. Further, there are no known uses of it during the war, which you'd think there would be if it was a wartime effort.
Instead, I prefer the theory that hofmann was testing each lysergamide in the series as he made them. The thing that makes me really believe in this theory is the fact that LSD is not just any old lysergamide. It just so happens to be qualitatively the best lysergamide. He would not have known that it was the best lysergamide unless he sampled all the others as well. The idea that he just randomly stumbled on the best and safest I find a bit hard to believe. If you throw a dart at a board containing the names of lysergamides, you're not going to pick something anywhere near as good or as safe as LSD.
So then the question in my mind becomes: if this was the case then why would he keep it a secret? As I said, it was common practice for chemists at the time to be the first to sample the drugs they made if they were intended for human consumption, so he could have safely admitted it. And that's where I get the idea that maybe he went looking for a psychoactive drug, or possibly that it was a wartime effort.
If I could ask hofmann just one question, it would actually be this; the real story about how LSD was actually invented.
Edited by nooneman (04/21/20 07:28 PM)
|
|