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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23786212 - 10/30/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Very interesting.
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enlightenment
alchemist


Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 1,647
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 9 months, 22 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23786219 - 10/30/16 04:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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It seems like soap doesn't influence mycelium growth in a bad way. RR uses soap in his straw tek. If it would affect the growth he wouldn't use it IMO. Of course it feels weird to eat mushrooms that have been grown on soapy straw.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23786239 - 10/30/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Gypsum is used to stopping clumping. I've used no gypsum with just soaks without a rinse and that works fine for grains.
So really there is no requirement to soak. It would boil down to it being a preference more than anything
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23786772 - 10/30/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Edited by vatman (10/30/16 08:25 PM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23787594 - 10/31/16 06:06 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The Doctors method is aimed at max BE, little mention on bacteria specifics. This is where the side-by-side controlled bacteria test will shine.
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Ferather]
#23787821 - 10/31/16 08:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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That would be a rinse before a soak or a rinse before my prep.
You can germinate the endos by letting it cool in a jar for 12 hours before pcing
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23789789 - 10/31/16 08:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Tested a gallon jar today in a pressure cooker. it hydration was a little uneven. I shook it up and was able to redistribute the grains. running a 50% water ratio was a Little low.
The was very few popes grains during uneven hydration.
My next plan is to run at 53% hydration. I will try a boil for 15 shake boil for 15. Again all excessive moisture was almost none existent. Was really to be loaded back into jars after being dumped.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#23791638 - 11/01/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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My jars with about even amounts of water & grain were very unevenly hdyrated too. Most are 400-500ml jars and had 150g water 150g grain added. Tops were dry bottom had many burst grains. The gypsum worked pretty well, still shakeable, but I opened a few and they were very sticky. I rinsed them off and am heat treating again.
I pretty much expected this but wondered if the lower temp would lead to less bursting. They were at about 95C for about 3 days.
I think shaking will help hugely after they have cooked for a while. I shook mine after the 3 days and hours later they did seem to have distributed the moisture pretty well, but the damage of the burst grains was done. Some grains like rye grass seed (RGS) do not really burst. But semi dry grains take longer times to sterilize IME
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vatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: blackout]
#23793033 - 11/01/16 09:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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My next rub is going to be in the pressure cooker without the lid tighten down and shaking them as needed
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Aunit
Stranger

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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: vatman]
#24735320 - 10/24/17 10:08 PM (6 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is something interesting to try for sure. might dedicate a few jars to this seeing how it works out. Never used oat before.
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PyeR2
Phungophiliac



Registered: 01/16/20
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia - NSW
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Aunit]
#26614396 - 04/20/20 05:36 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I found this thread because i was thinking exactly the same thing tonight, not just for expediation but also nutrient maximisation. I can't see why it couldn't be done by placing straight in the pressure cooker and launching straight into (a long ~2hr) 15psi mode using vented grain jars. An equilibrium sets up between the steam on the outside of the jar and that inside it, so moisture content in the jar shouldn't change much as long as vents are coverd and don't allow liquid water to enter the jar. Well worth a try me thinks. Provided correct hydration is achieved, the extra nutrients should be beneficial. I don't see there being a difference in hydration between the top and the bottom either as I'm sure saturated steam would hydrate the grain just as well as liquid H2O.
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poisoned
untitled



Registered: 04/17/13
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
#26614398 - 04/20/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I tried that once with grain and I ended up with a bunch of burst, soaked grains on the bottom and dry grains on the top.
It's completely possible I did something wrong.
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PyeR2
Phungophiliac



Registered: 01/16/20
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia - NSW
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: poisoned]
#26614572 - 04/20/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
poisoned said: I tried that once with grain and I ended up with a bunch of burst, soaked grains on the bottom and dry grains on the top.
It's completely possible I did something wrong.
I'm doing a trial right now so I'll have some information in the morning. I had some gsw to sterilise after a convention prep today so thought I may as well add a couple of pint jars. One has 100g oats + 74g H2O. I assumed dry oats already contained 13% water. The other jar contains 90g dry oats - I'm interested to see if/how much hydration occurs from steam alone. Both jars have FEA filters on the lid and are covered with foil. See what happens.
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PyeR2
Phungophiliac



Registered: 01/16/20
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia - NSW
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
#26616254 - 04/20/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well the results are in, and unfortunately they're in line with poisoned's experience. The grains on top are hydrated somewhat but definitely drier than the bottom. The bottom layer is slightly over-hydrated as evidenced by some sticking to fingers and hands.

LHS, Oats 100g + H2O 74g. Pressure cooked 15psi for 2hrs. Start weight 174g. Finish weight 168.28g. (-5.72g, -3.3%)
RHS, Oats 90g. Start weight 90g. Finish weight 91.44g. (+1.44g, +1.6%)
The loss of water content inside the 1st jar is in line with expectations - as the pressure cooker vents steam (pressure) the jar would contribute to that loss.
The 2nd jar result surprised me somewhat. Whilst I didn't expect full hydration, I would have thought saturated steam would have hydrated the grains more than it did in 2hrs. I suppose once a small amount of water (steam) enters the jar, the equilibrium sets up pretty quickly.

The pic illustrates the differece in hydration between a teaspoon of grains taken from the top and bottom of the jar. Endosperms were easily squeezed from the top grains using fingers whereas almost impossible to do so from bottom grains unless using fingernails. The top grains stuck to fingers a bit whereas bottom grains did not. The top grains clearly look plumper and more hydrated than the bottom ones too.
So there's my result for a 2hr pressure cook. Perhaps a longer cycle would give a different result. It's worth mentioning that no burst grains were evident at all, and the overall integrity of the grain looked better than soaked grains, even those on the bottom. If I get the inspiration later I might try a 4hr PC and see what gives.
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san pedro guy
Captain



Registered: 10/22/17
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
#26616293 - 04/20/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I’ve been messing with this for a while too and it works for me.
I think a 20 minute soak may help disperse the water more evenly.
I have had success with no soak also but I had to shake the jar while still hot so the dryer grains mix with the lower, wetter grains and it came out good.
Like bod always says, dryer is better and myc really doesn’t take much h20 to grow.
I have some pics of my ratios to water if anyone interested.....
-------------------- Noob Grow Along 2022
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PyeR2
Phungophiliac



Registered: 01/16/20
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia - NSW
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Quote:
san pedro guy said: I’ve been messing with this for a while too and it works for me.
I think a 20 minute soak may help disperse the water more evenly.
I have had success with no soak also but I had to shake the jar while still hot so the dryer grains mix with the lower, wetter grains and it came out good.
Like bod always says, dryer is better and myc really doesn’t take much h20 to grow.
I have some pics of my ratios to water if anyone interested.....
Interesting, when you say 20min soak may help, are you talking a separate soak in excess water or do you allow them to soak in-situ in the jar in just the prescribed amount of water?
Shaking the jars is impractical if you launch straight into a PC cycle.
I have a 10L stainless steel tumbler. One thought i had was to load grain and just enough water to facilitate correct hydration into the tumbler and tumble until the grains had absorbed all the water. That should achieve even hydration.
I agree with Bod that dryer is better. I also tend to agree with Violet's theory on wasting nutes by tossing them out with GSW. I'm keen to try his straight grain (no bulk) technique.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18135103 (Violets Thread)
It's a long read but much of what he says makes a lot of sense.
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
#26616365 - 04/20/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?
I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.
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PyeR2
Phungophiliac



Registered: 01/16/20
Posts: 26
Loc: Australia - NSW
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: Sockadin]
#26616393 - 04/20/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sockadin said: Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?
I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.
If it's a case of just loading jars with grain and water and pressure cooking then the work would be less but I don't know whether that's achievable yet. I am actually more interested in keeping all the nutrients in the jar rather than tossing them out, and would even be prepared to do a little more work to achieve this if I were rewarded with higher yields/potency.
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san pedro guy
Captain



Registered: 10/22/17
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Re: No soak no burst oat tek [Re: PyeR2]
#26616401 - 04/20/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sockadin said: Can we just say this Tek seems like more work than is necessary?
I haven't done it so I can't personally advocate for or against.
The way I do is def less work.
1. Add clean dry grains into a quart jar (little less than half full) 2. Add water to that jar till you can see it about .5 to .75 of an inch from the top of the grains 3. PC and give it a shake when pressure is down
pye- When I said soak I mean in the jar. I had an extra jar I had prepped but not cooked and noticed the grains absorbed the water at the bottom, gave it a shake and there were no dry vs wet grains at the end of the cycle.
Just read the op and yea that’s too much weighing and bs. I eyeball the amounts an it comes out perfect. The only issue I had initially was adding too much grain and water and I also had very dusty grains that clumped up.
-------------------- Noob Grow Along 2022
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Sockadin



Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 7,244
Last seen: 3 months, 21 days
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I'm gonna bet this doesn't work for all grains.
Some grains like wheat need to be rinsed. Some grains like oats love to release starches when boiled for 2hrs in water..
Here is my take.
WBS- if you have corn it will get starchy. Rye- could work if water content is right Rye Grass seed- probably the best to use this method. Oats- will get starchy Corn-Starchy Safflower-oily Black seed sunflower-oily Wheat-clumpy Barley-clumpy Millet- could work
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