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nooneman
Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,683
Loc: Utah
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How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? 1
#26611842 - 04/19/20 12:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think there's really good arguments on both sides of the debate for and against reopening. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're pretty fucked either way.
If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades. And it's not even clear when we'd be able to reopen if we're waiting on some vaccine that may or may not ever appear. Not all viruses have vaccines. Even if we do develop a vaccine, it might not be available for years, which means the US would be devastated economically in that time. In addition, a quarantine is a restriction of basic freedoms like the freedom of assembly and the freedom of movement.
On the other hand, if we do reopen, millions could die. It's not just about other people. Think about your parents, your grandparents, your older relatives, any older friends or family. They might all be dead in a month or two. Not to mention the tens or hundreds of thousands of young people who will die too. Even if we decide it's worth letting those people die to save our economy, a massive amount of people getting sick and dying might overwhelm our ability to cope with it causing a recession or depression even if we do reopen. And morally, is it really morally justifiable to sacrifice millions in exchange for the economy: essentially killing our relatives in exchange for money?
So here's a poll, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Me personally, I lean towards reopening, but the morality/immorality of doing so is what keeps me from supporting it. Not to mention the health of the people I love. But I don't think the quarantine is a good idea either. They're both bad options IMO. What do you think?
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living_failure
unworthy
Registered: 06/13/19
Posts: 352
Loc: spain, madrid
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] 2
#26612025 - 04/19/20 03:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I am european so STAL, but i want to see what you guys vote.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,288
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: living_failure]
#26612127 - 04/19/20 06:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
living_failure said: I am european so STAL, but i want to see what you guys vote.
Same here. ST3L
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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qman
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Asante] 8
#26612355 - 04/19/20 08:20 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I disagree with your original thesis, the economy isn't necessarily "fucked" if we wait this thing out and the government provides the proper resources to the working class during that process. That's the narrative the billionaire class wants the peasants to think as their profits dry up, but that doesn't make it true.
It's truly amazing that the recent protests in the US isn't about The Elite getting trillions in free money for this crisis as the peasants are essentially getting zero. The protests are about the peasants demanding to risk their lives to pay their bills to benefit The Elite. We clearly have a country full of retarded people who love their oppressors.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,956
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: qman] 3
#26612586 - 04/19/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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This is, of course, the ultimate test. If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this. Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses. Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day. In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.
The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one. If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Kryptos
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] 2
#26612659 - 04/19/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades.
I reject this argument.
First of all, unemployment is already nearing 20%. That's worse than the 2008 crash, that's Great Depression numbers. It's not about "potentially ruining the economy".
The economy is ALREADY fucked.
Now, qman here has a point. If we give money to main street, this will be a relatively painless crash. Suck for the stock market, but people would be alright. Heck, some have argued that the economy has never recovered since 2008, and that the only thing the rising stock market demonstrated was the amount of government money pumped into wall street.
Personally, I think all those "wealthy job creators" should be out there pulling jobs out of those bootstraps, right? Unless that was always a bullshit line?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,851
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: nooneman] 1
#26612721 - 04/19/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I just fail to see how we can really do it before we have full testing capability. It seems to me, and I am no expert, that until we have enough test kits -- tests which are designed to give extremely fast results -- it is pretty much impossible to resume normal economic activity. Every citizen will need to be testing themselves at least once a week for months (if not longer?) in order really to have an economy that can be safely ramped back up.
If we do reopen before this testing capacity is achieved, it seems to me we'll just have spike after spike. Imo, those are just the facts.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kryptos
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#26612743 - 04/19/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
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Yeetusdeetus
Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 1,242
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
#26612750 - 04/19/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
nooneman said: If we don't reopen, the economy is fucked, we enter into the greatest recession since the great depression, mass joblessness, mass homelessness, we could ruin the country for years or decades.
I reject this argument.
First of all, unemployment is already nearing 20%. That's worse than the 2008 crash, that's Great Depression numbers. It's not about "potentially ruining the economy".
The economy is ALREADY fucked.
Now, qman here has a point. If we give money to main street, this will be a relatively painless crash. Suck for the stock market, but people would be alright. Heck, some have argued that the economy has never recovered since 2008, and that the only thing the rising stock market demonstrated was the amount of government money pumped into wall street.
Personally, I think all those "wealthy job creators" should be out there pulling jobs out of those bootstraps, right? Unless that was always a bullshit line?
Strange how many Americans despise casinos and gamblers but when we’re talking about the economy and stocks the gambling is seen as legitimate source of income. At least the working class can afford to gamble at casinos, the only people who tend to make money in the stock market aside from a few who get lucky investing in volatile stock are the ones who can already afford a couple vacations homes.
Who cares about unemployment, this is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and the majority of it goes to less than 10000 people. UBI for everyone, let those who want more work and those who want to pursue other interests will be free to.
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Yeetusdeetus
Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 1,242
Last seen: 2 days, 19 hours
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
#26612757 - 04/19/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.
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Kryptos
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
#26612782 - 04/19/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeetusdeetus said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.
That's different. No paid sick leave and firing people that complain are standard practice throughout the US.
What I mean is giving companies complete legal immunity, so that if workers die due to unsafe working conditions, they cannot sue the company.
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist
Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,931
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26612811 - 04/19/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: This is, of course, the ultimate test. If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this. Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses. Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day. In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.
The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one. If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.
I like the way you think
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#26612826 - 04/19/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Every citizen will need to be testing themselves at least once a week for months (if not longer?) in order really to have an economy that can be safely ramped back up.
I don't think once a week is enough to keep anyone safe. I think it would have to be a daily test.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Yeetusdeetus
Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 1,242
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
#26612829 - 04/19/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Quote:
Yeetusdeetus said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
That’s what Tyson is getting away with right now, no sick leave. There are leaked emails from Amazon execs trying to figure out how to smear workers trying to speak out against their unsafe working conditions but nothing has been done about it.
That's different. No paid sick leave and firing people that complain are standard practice throughout the US.
What I mean is giving companies complete legal immunity, so that if workers die due to unsafe working conditions, they cannot sue the company.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of crisis collateral becomes legal and common as the workplace death count increases. “Sorry your dad died but he knew the risks, here’s 200 dollars.”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Near Dylan]
#26612832 - 04/19/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Near Dylan said:
Quote:
Enlil said: This is, of course, the ultimate test. If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this. Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses. Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day. In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.
The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one. If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.
I like the way you think
Agreed. Now, how do we get the masses to do a real social uprising, if not a violent one, while they're confined to their homes without risking the lives of everyone who goes out to protest?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,851
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26612839 - 04/19/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
Unfortunately plausible in today's U.S.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,956
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
#26612891 - 04/19/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
In the U.S., people can't be forced to go to work.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Kryptos
Stranger
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Enlil] 2
#26612946 - 04/19/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Kryptos said: Alternatively, if a legal precedent was set that companies are not responsible for the health of their employees and cannot be sued by people getting sick due to being forced back to work, then we could reopen tomorrow and sucks for whoever dies.
Unfortunately plausible in today's U.S.
Yeah, this was based entirely on that phone call dumpy had with CEOs. At least a few expressed concern over being sued if they reopen too early. I am more than certain that the possibility of legal immunity came up.
Quote:
Enlil said: In the U.S., people can't be forced to go to work.
Correct, people are not forced to work. However, people are also not given any way to survive without going to work. This is one of those legal vs. real arguments, in which we are both correct in different ways.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,956
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Kryptos]
#26612953 - 04/19/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not really. People aren't working now. If they reopen, and people refuse to go back to work, those people are in exactly the same position as they were. Ultimately, the decision to reopen is really the decision to ALLOW businesses to reopen.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,956
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: How many of you want to reopen the US ASAP? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26612966 - 04/19/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Near Dylan said:
Quote:
Enlil said: This is, of course, the ultimate test. If anything is going to bring the middle and lower classes to the breaking point, it's going to be this. Economic inequality has been offset by the availability of cheap distractions for the masses. Now, the masses are more restless than they've ever been and they're becoming more restless by the day. In addition, the simple comforts that are so cheaply available in the U.S. are becoming less available and more unaffordable.
The time is ripe for a real social uprising, if not a violent one. If the elite don't see that and do something to assuage the masses, we might just see some real change in the U.S.
I like the way you think
Agreed. Now, how do we get the masses to do a real social uprising, if not a violent one, while they're confined to their homes without risking the lives of everyone who goes out to protest?
We don't. We reach the point where the risk from covid is outweighed by the sense of injustice. Lots of people will die, but that will only serve to heighten the sense of injustice until chaos ensues.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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